Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[mwmbwls]

The 319 brochure was produced around 6 or 7 years ago. You probably recall North West electrification was announced prior to the 2010 General Election by Lord Adonis and replaced a proposed order for brand new DMUs. Lord Adonis specifically mentioned the Chat Moss route would get cascaded trains from Thameslink in 2012 which would be given complete new interiors including new seats and fitted with air-conditioning. (The fact that he mentioned fitting air conditioning is what confirmed he was referring to 319s and not 377s.) Porterbrook drew up plans for those plans and came up with further options to make 319s look like an attractive option to use on the Bolton corridor and to be considered to use in lieu of 323s. However, the change of government resulted in the full 319 refurbishment plans being dropped and I imagine they are now less economically viable given the 319s are getting older by the day.

Thank you .My ghast is regularly flabbered by the breadth and depth of collective memory revealed by this community. I concur with your inferred conclusion that economic viability may be conditional on the (technological) age of an asset.

 

[Roose]

60mph on the Windermere Branch

Trains use the WCML to access depots and operate the through services.

Worth reminding forum members that Northern have ordered CAF DMU for the Northern Connect services from Manchester to the Furness line and those few intended to access the Lakes line.

 

[edwin_m]

Would it not need a new traction control system? The existing system was not designed to work with a limited capacity power source, so would overload the gensets.

I think there is a valid point here. If the 319 traction package is unmodified then applying full power would try to draw more current than the gensets could probably supply. This would either trip out the gensets or shut down the traction package as the "line" voltage dropped below the working minimum.

However the traction is microprocessor controlled so there may be scope to solve this problem by software - effectively limiting traction power when in diesel mode.

 

[Greybeard33]

I think there is a valid point here. If the 319 traction package is unmodified then applying full power would try to draw more current than the gensets could probably supply. This would either trip out the gensets or shut down the traction package as the "line" voltage dropped below the working minimum.

However the traction is microprocessor controlled so there may be scope to solve this problem by software - effectively limiting traction power when in diesel mode.

I expect the software for a 1980s microprocessor would have been written in assembler language, with minimal documentation and tight memory and timing constraints. A nightmare to modify, and a lost art these days - often cheaper to replace the obsolete hardware and start again.

Repurposing a 26+ year old train may seem simple and straightforward to the armchair experts on this forum, but, as in all engineering, "the devil is in the detail".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Trains use the WCML to access depots and operate the through services.

Worth reminding forum members that Northern have ordered CAF DMU for the Northern Connect services from Manchester to the Furness line and those few intended to access the Lakes line.

As people are well aware trains that are ordered for a given purpose do not have to be used for that purpose.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As people are well aware trains that are ordered for a given purpose do not have to be used for that purpose.

As proved over the years by the Class 142 Pacers graduating from stated branch line workings (that were said to be all saved by the introduction of them) to some of the more rather long-distance service work that they are placed upon in 2016...

 

[The Ham]

I have a question, the working assumption is that the bimodal version will be OHLE and diesel. This is said to make it easy to convert as the diesel generators then just plug into the current third rail equipment. However, would it be just easy or would more work be required to make it third rail and diesel?

I'm just thinking that a route that could benefit from that would be the North Downs Line run by GWR. If course if they are using 319's with OHLE then they may prefer to (if it were possible) to have duel voltage units with bimodal capability.

The 319's would give an extra pair of doors to help with loading/unloading, would be the same seating layouts (I.e. 3+2) as the existing stock but provide a handful more seats.

 

[northwichcat]

As people are well aware trains that are ordered for a given purpose do not have to be used for that purpose.

But it would be strange for Arriva to reject 319s in favour of 331s on Windermere services and then to use 319s and to put the brand new 331s on a route where they can more easily get away with using 319s like Chat Moss.

 

[dgl]

I have a question, the working assumption is that the bimodal version will be OHLE and diesel. This is said to make it easy to convert as the diesel generators then just plug into the current third rail equipment. However, would it be just easy or would more work be required to make it third rail and diesel?

I'm just thinking that a route that could benefit from that would be the North Downs Line run by GWR. If course if they are using 319's with OHLE then they may prefer to (if it were possible) to have duel voltage units with bimodal capability.

The 319's would give an extra pair of doors to help with loading/unloading, would be the same seating layouts (I.e. 3+2) as the existing stock but provide a handful more seats.

To make it tri-mode or even bi-mode with Diesel and 750v 3rd rail would need software/hardware to know when the 750v is coming from the engine or the 3rd rail plus some back feed diode protection (diodes are essentially DC one way valves) to stop the power from either the Diesel engine or 3rd rail supply from feeding into each other/

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it would be strange for Arriva to reject 319s in favour of 331s on Windermere services and then to use 319s and to put the brand new 331s on a route where they can more easily get away with using 319s like Chat Moss.

In the face of changing evidence, you need to change your approach.

Class 331s are of no relevance to Windermere if it isn't going to get wired. Only the new DMUs will be relevant, and there will only be enough of those for the routes they were intended for.

As they appear to be basically the same bodyshell, might Northern do well to consider asking CAF if they will switch some EMUs to DMUs instead, though?

 

[CosherB]

repurposing a 26+ year old train may seem simple and straightforward to the armchair experts on this forum, but, as in all engineering, "the devil is in the detail".

+1.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I have a question, the working assumption is that the bimodal version will be OHLE and diesel. This is said to make it easy to convert as the diesel generators then just plug into the current third rail equipment. However, would it be just easy or would more work be required to make it third rail and diesel?

I'm just thinking that a route that could benefit from that would be the North Downs Line run by GWR. If course if they are using 319's with OHLE then they may prefer to (if it were possible) to have duel voltage units with bimodal capability.

The 319's would give an extra pair of doors to help with loading/unloading, would be the same seating layouts (I.e. 3+2) as the existing stock but provide a handful more seats.

The working assumption for one "interested" TOC is tri-mode, for the very reasons you outlined!

It's got to be seen to work first though and, of course, the price has to be right!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The working assumption for one "interested" TOC is tri-mode, for the very reasons you outlined!

Now *that* is intriguing...which service might be possible using all three?

 

[northwichcat]

In the face of changing evidence, you need to change your approach.

Class 331s are of no relevance to Windermere if it isn't going to get wired. Only the new DMUs will be relevant, and there will only be enough of those for the routes they were intended for.

As they appear to be basically the same bodyshell, might Northern do well to consider asking CAF if they will switch some EMUs to DMUs instead, though?

What I was really getting at is 319s for electric Northern Connect routes were an available option but they weren't taken up - maybe the cost of conversion to Northern Connect standard isn't viable when compared to the cost of brand new 331s built to Northern Connect standard?

Northern have a requirement for 36 additional self-powered vehicles in service by 2022. Could they look at a DEMU version of the 331 to meet that requirement and then change the final batch of 331s that they've already ordered to be DEMU instead of EMU?

 

[Domh245]

Now *that* is intriguing...which service might be possible using all three?

GWR could make use of all 3 modes, although not on one service

 

[Bletchleyite]

What I was really getting at is 319s for electric Northern Connect routes were an available option but they weren't taken up - maybe the cost of conversion to Northern Connect standard isn't viable when compared to the cost of brand new 331s built to Northern Connect standard?

Possibly not. But possibly, bi-mode 319s are a different economic story. Then again, possibly they are not. For instance, I certainly didn't expect the procurement of brand-new vehicles for the Anglia regional driver-guard-one-bloke-and-his-dog services, that came as somewhat of a (very positive) shock. As did the prospect of a two-DMU hourly service returning to Ormskirk-Preston, roughly doubling the running costs of an economic basket case line...I can only conclude that a senior Arriva Northern manager lives in Croston, Rufford or Burscough!

There's also the possibility that, given that outside influences on Northern caused the requirement change, the Government may well allow some changes to the franchise specification, for example allowing the use of non-air-conditioned vehicles on the Windermere services (other than that, all it'd take is replacing seats with 2+2 with tables to produce a decent enough inter-regional unit - the 319/2s that did exactly that are pleasant enough inside). This has plenty of precedent - the biggest one was probably changes to the West Coast franchise when it became apparent that PUG2 (140mph) was completely off the cards.

Northern have a requirement for 36 additional self-powered vehicles in service by 2022. Could they look at a DEMU version of the 331 to meet that requirement and then change the final batch of 331s that they've already ordered to be DEMU instead of EMU?

Do CAF even offer bi-modes? If not, would a Stadler microfleet work?

 

[northwichcat]

given that outside influences on Northern caused the requirement change, the Government may well allow some changes to the franchise specification, for example allowing the use of non-air-conditioned vehicles on the Windermere services

The Manchester Airport to Cumbria, Blackpool and Liverpool via Warrington services were the routes DfT specifically wanted Northern to provide high specification trains on. The Cumbria MPs have been very vocal about their services being downgraded recently so changing the spec to allow lower quality trains on Cumbria services won't go down well.

High spec trains on routes like Lincoln to Leeds and Sheffield to Hull weren't required by DfT but including them probably helped Arriva win the bidding process. However, it's expected 158s are to be used alongside 195s on some Northern Connect routes.

Do CAF even offer bi-modes? If not, would a Stadler microfleet work?

From the CAF website

The Civity trains are available with the following types of traction:

Electric
Mechanical diesel or hydraulic diesel
Diesel-electric
Dual

Civity can adapt to the traction requirements of each and every operator. This family of trains is designed for 4 different power supplies: 1500 VDC, 3000 VDC, 15 kVAC (16,6 Hz), 25 kVAC (50 Hz).

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Manchester Airport to Cumbria, Blackpool and Liverpool via Warrington services were the routes DfT specifically wanted Northern to provide high specification trains on. The Cumbria MPs have been very vocal about their services being downgraded recently so changing the spec to allow lower quality trains on Cumbria services won't go down well.

OK, they'll lose the 185s, but a well-refurbished 2+2 seated Class 319 will be much nicer than the rotting rattletrap 153s with bits falling off all over the place that feature on the local services. They'd also gain capacity over the 185's shorter length and wasteful interior layout.

Blackpool of course will be unaffected as that's still getting wired, same with Liverpool which already *is* wired. (Or is this the Warrington Central service which is DMU anyway? Not wiring that is mad - the large number of local stations mean an EMU solution would give a massive timetable improvement all round - or failing that an overpowered DMU like the 185 with all engines in use but with gearing changed to 75mph to give modern-EMU-like acceleration).

High spec trains on routes like Lincoln to Leeds and Sheffield to Hull weren't required by DfT but including them probably helped Arriva win the bidding process. However, it's expected 158s are to be used alongside 195s on some Northern Connect routes.

If you've been on a ScotRail Inverness 158, or an Arriva Trains Wales one, or even an EMT one (if you spaced the seats out a bit) you'll recognise how good a unit the Class 158 can be - they were good to start with, but these refurbs make them into some of the best Standard Class on the network (as I mentioned elsewhere there's no competition for the best First Class, that has to be the GWR HST). They are getting on a bit, and they do need a replacement aircon system (which can be done), but I really can't see any passengers caring provided Northern do do a proper job of them.

From the CAF website

Fair enough.

 

[northwichcat]

OK, they'll lose the 185s, but a well-refurbished 2+2 seated Class 319 will be much nicer than the rotting rattletrap 153s with bits falling off all over the place that feature on the local services. They'd also gain capacity over the 185's shorter length and wasteful interior layout.

I'm not sure. The post-DDA modifications seating capacity for 3+2 on 319s is 286 seats. Switch that to 2+2 and you're down to less than 230 seats. Then if you allow for the following requirements for Northern Connect trains

(b) fixed or folding tables at a minimum of 90% of seats;

(d) adequate space for luggage which takes account of the fact that the Northern Connect Passenger Services shall be operated to and from airports and other significant tourist venues;

Will likely bring down the number of seats further.

(c) power sockets or USB charging points with a minimum of one socket provided for every two seats;

May affect the number of seats depending on the maximum number of charging points that can be fitted to the train e.g. if it's 105 per 4 car set then the maximum number of seats can't be higher than 210.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will likely bring down the number of seats further.

Fixed *or folding* tables wouldn't. Folding tables can be fitted to all types of seat, whether 3+2 or 2+2, and whatever the pitch. A fully airline seated layout, even one denser than the present one e.g. the Class 150/2 layout, could still feature folding tables at each seat. (You'll notice that the Northern Class 150/2s with the high-density layout have table wells on the seat backs, they just never fitted the actual tables).

May affect the number of seats depending on the maximum number of charging points that can be fitted to the train e.g. if it's 105 per 4 car set then the maximum number of seats can't be higher than 210.

The power drain from USB sockets is so low that that would not be the case, particularly given "diversity" i.e. you don't have to design for all to be usable at once, as in practice that won't happen - just like home electrical wiring where the socket circuit typically has a 32A breaker but a ring might have 10 or more 13A sockets, giving a total *possible* load of 130A...but nobody plugs a 3-bar electric fire into every socket!

Similarly, a 4-gang socket extension has 4 sockets and is fused to 13A in total, not per socket - when was the last time you had the fuse in one of those pop? I don't think I've had that ever.

Even electric cooker wiring normally uses a 32A breaker despite most cookers being theoretically able to draw well over 60A. Again, diversity - nobody has everything on at once - even with everything set to "high" the thermostat will turn various bits off when they reach the desired temperature.

Many 319s already have additional luggage stacks due to their Thameslink origins serving two airports, so no need for any change there, but if you do it's maybe a loss of 4-6 seats per vehicle.

But unless it's ineptly designed, 80m of train should be able to have more seats in it than 69m of train even at the same specification - simple as that!

 

[northwichcat]

Fixed *or folding* tables wouldn't.

It would for the 90% requirement, otherwise you'll have on average 4 rows of seats per carriage without tables (due to no row in front of them) which would equate to around 85% of seats having tables not 90%. Therefore for 90% you'd need some fixed tables alongside folding ones.

But unless it's ineptly designed, 80m of train should be able to have more seats in it than 69m of train even at the same specification - simple as that!

A 185 is actually a 71.4m train while a 319 is a 79.4m train, so it's only 8m difference and some of that extra space is wasted by the extra inter-carriage connection. Although 319s are wider so it should be possible to fit wider seats in 2+2 formation without making the aisle too narrow.

 

[Jonny]

We haven't got an (affordable) technical solution yet.
First find an emission-compliant engine.
The re-engineering of an obsolescent EMU will be amazing.
Maybe we will have Ford truck engines like the class 230.
And all for a tiny handful of units.

And yet we are already into fatuous class numbers...

Cummins developed the QSK19R product, an updated version of the QSK19 engine used in 18x and 22x units that is supposed to meet the latest criteria. The only problem is if it was no longer available or not comercially worthwhile...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cummins developed the QSK19R product, an updated version of the QSK19 engine used in 18x and 22x units that is supposed to meet the latest criteria. The only problem is if it was no longer available or not comercially worthwhile...

Or if an engine that large is necessary.

I think it'll follow a "multiple van engines" approach as used by the 230. Two such gensets on removable rafts under each driving trailer vehicle would be my expectation. Possibly, if higher power is required, an additional one or two under the non-driving trailer. After all, the 2.2 litre Ford Duratorq found in the Transit and Land Rover Defender also fits in the Ford Mondeo with all relevant emissions kit included - and you'd easily get the snout end of a Ford Mondeo in a crate under a Class 319 body.

 

[43074]

Possibly not. But possibly, bi-mode 319s are a different economic story. Then again, possibly they are not. For instance, I certainly didn't expect the procurement of brand-new vehicles for the Anglia regional driver-guard-one-bloke-and-his-dog services, that came as somewhat of a (very positive) shock...

If that's your perception of the Anglia regional services you have clearly never used them...

 

[Jonny]

The power drain from USB sockets is so low that that would not be the case, particularly given "diversity" i.e. you don't have to design for all to be usable at once, as in practice that won't happen - just like home electrical wiring where the socket circuit typically has a 32A breaker but a ring might have 10 or more 13A sockets, giving a total *possible* load of 130A...but nobody plugs a 3-bar electric fire into every socket!

Similarly, a 4-gang socket extension has 4 sockets and is fused to 13A in total, not per socket - when was the last time you had the fuse in one of those pop? I don't think I've had that ever.

Even electric cooker wiring normally uses a 32A breaker despite most cookers being theoretically able to draw well over 60A. Again, diversity - nobody has everything on at once - even with everything set to "high" the thermostat will turn various bits off when they reach the desired temperature.

Unfortunately, a reasonable scenario on board a train is that everyone plugs in at once with 2A+ USB power cables (20 AWG wires IIRC from elsewhere on the forum)) and the devices all draw full power. Still, that would only need a couple of horsepower with a reasonably efficient converter.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or if an engine that large is necessary.

I think it'll follow a "multiple van engines" approach as used by the 230. Two such gensets on removable rafts under each driving trailer vehicle would be my expectation. Possibly, if higher power is required, an additional one or two under the non-driving trailer. After all, the 2.2 litre Ford Duratorq found in the Transit and Land Rover Defender also fits in the Ford Mondeo with all relevant emissions kit included - and you'd easily get the snout end of a Ford Mondeo in a crate under a Class 319 body.

It would only need two QSK19R engines per four-car unit to give maximal power output, and they need not be in the same carriage as the motors.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If that's your perception of the Anglia regional services you have clearly never used them...

I'll admit I haven't. Are they busier than those in other parts of the country?

I'm not thinking regional expresses here, I'm thinking the branch lines, which could have continued to use 153s (or e-Pacers, or 230s, or whatever) but won't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately, a reasonable scenario on board a train is that everyone plugs in at once with 2A+ USB power cables (20 AWG wires IIRC from elsewhere on the forum)) and the devices all draw full power. Still, that would only need a couple of horsepower with a reasonably efficient converter.

Have you ever seen, on any train or bus, all the power sockets in use? I haven't. It is usually fewer than 10% in my experience, and many of those are laptops, of which the vast majority can't plug into USB sockets.

Battery packs are largely removing the need for them as quickly as they are being installed.

You could also limit the sockets electronically to 0.5A which is enough to meet the USB spec. Not great for iDevices, but ticks the boxes on the franchise agreement.

It would only need two QSK19R engines per four-car unit to give maximal power output, and they need not be in the same carriage as the motors.

True, but they are large engines - think the IEP raised floor. Smaller engines are likely to be easier to fit. And as I mentioned, maximal power output on diesel is not needed.

 

[notlob.divad]

I expect the software for a 1980s microprocessor would have been written in assembler language, with minimal documentation and tight memory and timing constraints. A nightmare to modify, and a lost art these days - often cheaper to replace the obsolete hardware and start again.

Repurposing a 26+ year old train may seem simple and straightforward to the armchair experts on this forum, but, as in all engineering, "the devil is in the detail".

+1.

+2

I know a handful of people who could still get their head around 1980s assembler if push came to shove, but the time to do it for a handful of units seriously would not be worth it. Just because it is 'software' doesn't make it easy or even cheap.

"the devil is in the detail"

quite.

As with working with all old electronic and computer systems, what looks easy on a piece of paper for a ball park estimate of cost can quite quickly become a hellish nightmare. This idea of just bang a couple of gensets under the carriage and hey presto, doesn't wash. Yes I have no doubt that it is possible and could provide an increase in viability for the future of these units, whilst at the same time giving a work around to the current infrastructure issues. However as always there will be something that with the best will in the world everyone on this forum and possibly even the people working on the feasibility study, will have overlooked.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Or if an engine that large is necessary.

I think it'll follow a "multiple van engines" approach as used by the 230. Two such gensets on removable rafts under each driving trailer vehicle would be my expectation. Possibly, if higher power is required, an additional one or two under the non-driving trailer. After all, the 2.2 litre Ford Duratorq found in the Transit and Land Rover Defender also fits in the Ford Mondeo with all relevant emissions kit included - and you'd easily get the snout end of a Ford Mondeo in a crate under a Class 319 body.

I did some calcs over the weekend based on this assumption that the class 230 gensets were used. I do not know the weight of each of the gensets including fuel tank, fuel etc etc,

The calcs I did were thus:
current power to weight ratio of a 319 with no people. 7.05 kw/tonne with 400 65kg people on board 5.95 kw/tonne
P:W limited to 600kw of genset with no people (and asssuming no weight increase which is clearly absurd) 4.27 kw/tonne dropping to 3.61 kw/tonne with the people on board.

For comparison to other classes, a 142 pacer has 6.9kw/tonne when empty a 153 has a 5.17 kw/tonne.

By my very rough calcs, a 319 with the same 4 gensets from a 230 would be the lowest power to weight ratio on the network. I think you are looking for at least 5 maybe 6 of these to get you anything like a useable vehicle.

 

[158722]

I don't get this desire to compare 319s and 185s - there is no need!

As I said earlier, if (and it is a big IF), this D319 project does come off, then I would expect them to be deployed on routes currently worked predominantly by 2 or 4 car sets of Pacers or 150s, or single 156s, where any increase in capacity will be appreciated, whilst reducing the requirement for Pacers and compensating for the lack of and delays in other 15x stock becoming available due to delays in the various electrification projects.

Any D319 units are not going to be 'luxury' or express units along the lines of 185s, 195s or 331s - they are going to be basic people movers for secondary routes of up to 75mph (if that). Look at Manchester to Marple, New Mills, Liverpool via Warrington Central, Stalybridge-Victoria-Wigan-(Southport), even Chester via Northwich. No air con, etc as the diesel power output is going to maxed out just to allow them to keep to existing 142/150 timings.

They should be seen as a stop-gap to fill the Pacer void, which was otherwise to be expected to be filled by cascades caused by Northern's new stock and from other operators releasing 15x stock due to electrification. We all know that great plan has gone out of the window!

 

[The Ham]

GWR could make use of all 3 modes, although not on one service

Quite hence the question about if tri-modes were possible. As being able to use third rail/diesel for Reading to Gatwick services whilst being able to use the same unit type for other branch lines and them all be able to use OHLE to get to/from depots and/or other locations on the mainline.

 

[D60]

Still disappointing that the seemingly more deliverable solution of a bi-mode 230-job is not being considered for lightweight alu-bodied 3-car 750v PEP-derived Merseyrail-compatible stock... for enhancing the potential of through services and connectivity for Ormskirk-Preston, Kirkby-Wigan, (..Southport-Burscough-Wigan..? ..Wrexham..? ..Skelmersdale..?)... to enhance services and release/replace Sprinter/Pacer stock..