Chiltern to remove on-board catering..

[nickdavies]

I quote.. (from Twitter)

"Sorry you’re unhappy with the proposed changes, following an extensive review, we are proposing to withdraw on-train catering services and are currently consulting with the individuals involved. Business Zone will remain pending the outcome of our consultation with our staff."

And life becomes a little greyer.


I wonder what they will do with the Business Zone. It certainly won't be worth £25 extra. Scrap the M3 buffet open firsts I expect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oh dear. It seems the lackadaisicality (is that a word?) of Arriva finally makes it to Chiltern.

Back to VTWC if you want a true InterCity service, then?

 

[Steveman]

What a shame.

 

[HH]

I've long thought that the only way to make catering work is to include it in the price - the quantities and certainty mean that you can offer a good deal. Anything else will likely be a 'loss leader' at best.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see why First Class can't still work without catering, though, it's still more comfortable.

 

[FordFocus]

Catering is always one department which is sacrificed during cutbacks.

 

[Failed Unit]

Seems the way on all modes of transportation around 2 hours now. People are tending to buy before they board. Tea / coffee onboard is nice but not essential for what is really a short journey time.

Race to the bottom it appears.

 

[Greenback]

It's not an easy decision either way. I'm sure I;m not alone in rarely using on board catering where it's provided. I might buy a tea on a long journey like Llanelli to Manchester, but I mostly take my own food and drink or don't bother with refreshments at all.

So I always wonder how many people do actually use a buffet or trolley service? How much is catering provision actually going to lure people on to a train rather than a bus or a plane these days?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I'd think Chiltern is more likely to be in a position to understand their business and their market than I am.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Catering is always one department which is sacrificed during cutbacks.

Because it is essentially (and has always been) a loss making activity. Agreed it was usually seen as part of the "service" package.

Huge amounts of on station catering competition , though one might balk at some of the prices ..nearly £5 for a West Cornwall Pasty does grate.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So I always wonder how many people do actually use a buffet or trolley service? How much is catering provision actually going to lure people on to a train rather than a bus or a plane these days?

I'm always surprised when the railways say that the catering provision is a loss-leader, because that makes me think they're simply not doing it properly. EasyJet have revenue of £70m a year from non-seat revenue. Now I know that isn't just tea and coffee, and I know that airlines have a slightly more captive audience due to liquid restrictions at airports, but still. Selling cups of coffee to the Chinese tourists going to Bicester Village should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[Clip]

I'm always surprised when the railways say that the catering provision is a loss-leader, because that makes me think they're simply not doing it properly. EasyJet have revenue of £70m a year from non-seat revenue. Now I know that isn't just tea and coffee, and I know that airlines have a slightly more captive audience due to liquid restrictions at airports, but still. Selling cups of coffee to the Chinese tourists going to Bicester Village should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

Easyjet can do that because they don't have much competition on pricing as airport outlets like Smiths are just as pricey and you cant exactly take your pint from spoons on the plane can you?

 

[Robertj21a]

It's not an easy decision either way. I'm sure I;m not alone in rarely using on board catering where it's provided. I might buy a tea on a long journey like Llanelli to Manchester, but I mostly take my own food and drink or don't bother with refreshments at all.

So I always wonder how many people do actually use a buffet or trolley service? How much is catering provision actually going to lure people on to a train rather than a bus or a plane these days?

I don't have the answers to these questions, but I'd think Chiltern is more likely to be in a position to understand their business and their market than I am.

I can't recall the last time I bought anything on board a train. Surely, there's little need unless you're travelling for, say, 3 hours or more ?

 

[BanburyBlue]

I'm always surprised when the railways say that the catering provision is a loss-leader, because that makes me think they're simply not doing it properly. EasyJet have revenue of £70m a year from non-seat revenue. Now I know that isn't just tea and coffee, and I know that airlines have a slightly more captive audience due to liquid restrictions at airports, but still. Selling cups of coffee to the Chinese tourists going to Bicester Village should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

I think the problem is that it's so over priced that you have to be desperate or rich. It's the same with hotel mini-bars which seem to have all but disappeared. I do wonder if the prices were more 'normal' whether they would sell more and hence become more popular?

 

[al78]

I can't recall the last time I bought anything on board a train. Surely, there's little need unless you're travelling for, say, 3 hours or more ?

It is not always about need, it is about want as well. There are occasions when travelling from London to Manchester that I feel like a hot drink and a muffin. I am travelling from Horsham to Aviemore next summer, it would be more convenient if I don't have to take a full days food supply just for the journey.

If we only ever had things that were essential, we would have little in life other than food, water, oxygen and shelter.

 

[Starmill]

Chiltern only offer catering on a small number of services where I would expect them to sell a lot. And the only time I have ever been on a Turbostar with catering the trolley has been doing a good trade.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I cannot remember the last time I bought any food on board any train - I always buy before I board; the on board prices are much higher, you see...

 

[185]

It's all about striking a balance.

At one operator 18 years ago, self employed, staff were selling "at 33%" - eg £1800 stock sold p/week, keep £600 (tax and NI was a rather misty, grey area, but despite that, this was the most financially successful, productive model I've ever seen in rail catering.)

This model was eg £1 a tea or coffee, butties people actually wanted to buy - lincolnshire sausage and onion, well filled ploughmans etc. Extras - 50p a bag of crisps, 80p for a can of coke, £2 for a can of Stella 500ml, £2.50 for doubleshot miniatures.
The trolley was reliable, and many of the customers were generally repeat buyers, same train each day.

A key indicator was the staff car park. Conductors would have minis, fiestas, mopeds, bikes; drivers would have estate cars, hatchbacks and family cars.... whilst the trolley staff were pulling up in convertables and beamers

Then along came the RailGourmets, SkyTracs etc keen to make their own cut. They'd charge £2.20 for an instant coffee, and then wonder why sales had dropped. They'd then abandon it, and the TOC would take over, charging the same £2.20, then tell the passengers it's all being scrapped as 'no-one buys off the trolley anymore' (duuh!)

It's really not about the on-station offerings being improved, as the TOCs have always blamed.

Britain's Railway 2016 :P

 

[O L Leigh]

I'm on a Chiltern service right now and just bought a coffee for £2. OK so it came out of a machine and isn't the nicest I've ever had, but the price seems broadly comparable with other takeaway outlets. I think I'd be inclined to agree with the "loss leader" view.

O L Leigh

 

[Failed Unit]

Don't we have the VAT issue. Station outlet 0% because it is takeaway. On train 20% as you are consuming on the premises. Hasn't that always caused a problem that on train can't complete?

 

[nickdavies]

Don't we have the VAT issue. Station outlet 0% because it is takeaway. On train 20% as you are consuming on the premises. Hasn't that always caused a problem that on train can't complete?

No it isn't, VAT has long been charged on takeaway food.

 

[OneTrackMind]

From what I remember, the catering service was/still is only based at Birmingham Moor Street.

Whilst I'm unsure of the numbers involved, there seems to of been some large scale reorganisation across the network.

I note the future developments in the strategic report for the accounts to 31st December 2015...

"Additionally a contracted increase in franchise payments to the DfT is likely to result in 2016 being a loss making year. However the company will look to mitigate the impact of the delay in opening (Oxford), and once open, the service to Oxford is expected to contribute to profitability in future years, along with continued growth from existing services."

Assuming that these cuts were decided at the end of Q2/Q3 in the current year, I'd be surprised how much the cut to catering will help profits given that turnover of 'other' services (which includes catering) was only £4.1m in 2015.

 

[marks87]

...and I know that airlines have a slightly more captive audience due to liquid restrictions at airports, but still.

Once you're through security, there's no restrictions on liquids. So you can happily take a normal-sized bottle of soft drink on board a plane, so long as you bought it in the departure lounge. Some airlines are even happy for you to bring on takeaway hot drinks.

There are, however, restrictions on alcohol. Many airlines don't allow you to consume outside alcohol on board, and most (all?) "duty free" shops now give you it in sealed bags. So the like of EasyJet and Ryanair make an absolute killing in alcohol sales, primarily to one of their core markets - stag and hen parties.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Easyjet can do that because they don't have much competition on pricing as airport outlets like Smiths are just as pricey

SSP retail outlets on railway stations are pretty much just the same in terms of markup as SSP retail outlets in airports.

and you cant exactly take your pint from spoons on the plane can you?

You can't really take that on the train either. Yes, you can get a carry-out from the offy, which you can't on the plane, but a coffee you get at Marylebone will be cold and/or drunk by the time you get to High Wycombe.

At one operator 18 years ago, self employed, staff were selling "at 33%" - eg £1800 stock sold p/week, keep £600 (tax and NI was a rather misty, grey area, but despite that, this was the most financially successful, productive model I've ever seen in rail catering.)

A more recent example of this was at Stansted Express, and safe to say that the trolley staff weren't "driving beemers"; they weren't even making national minimum wage. It went away because a court case found they were employees, and entitled to certain basic rights.

Don't we have the VAT issue. Station outlet 0% because it is takeaway. On train 20% as you are consuming on the premises. Hasn't that always caused a problem that on train can't complete?

It's only a handful of products where VAT is chargeable for eat in food but not chargeable for takeaway food, most notably sandwiches. In general, if it is supplied as part of a catering service, the product is VAT chargeable regardless of where it is consumed.

 

[Robertj21a]

It is not always about need, it is about want as well. There are occasions when travelling from London to Manchester that I feel like a hot drink and a muffin. I am travelling from Horsham to Aviemore next summer, it would be more convenient if I don't have to take a full days food supply just for the journey.

If we only ever had things that were essential, we would have little in life other than food, water, oxygen and shelter.

Hence why I suggested 'say, 3 hours or more'. If I want something I'll bring it on with me, it's really not too difficult.

 

[Carlisle]

I can't recall the last time I bought anything on board a train. Surely, there's little need unless you're travelling for, say, 3 hours or more ?

I think most of the former Inter City routes that customers know have a buffet and/or trolley on virtually all of their services still do reasonably well

 

[Esmenfif]

Our eating habits, as a society, have changed. It isn't surprising the railway catering has declined. There isn't any need for catering anymore. If anything, I think that vending machines for coffee/tea/fizzy drink, etc., would suffice. Or, perhaps something like the old automats. In any case, I can't see the sense in continuing to employ catering staff, except in very special cases like the GWR pullman.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I think the problem is that it's so over priced that you have to be desperate or rich.

It's (lack of) quality, too. If I buy a Coke on a train it's luke-warm. If I buy a cider then the only one on offer is Strongbow. If I buy a cheeseburger... let's not even go there. In all three cases you can get something that tastes better, for less money, at many major stations.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't think the station food outlets are quite as pricey as those at airports. For the price-conscious many stations have a supermarket, Tesco Express or similar nearby - an option not available at airports.

As well as price, I suggest the main reasons for the decline in on-board catering is availability. If passengers know there is a good chance the trolley will have sold out of whatever they want, or not appear at all, then any that really want food on their journey will bring it on board with them. Any that don't really want food but might be tempted will probably be put off by the high prices and limited selection.

I don't think there is any way of squaring this circle, except perhaps on the longest-distance trains where a good number of passengers are on board for several hours. Making the catering reliable and attractive would need investment in more staff and better equipment, and it's unlikely the extra sales would recoup this especially if prices were also reduced to competitive levels.

 

[ScotTrains]

The situation on Scotrail seems to be the opposite! Up here catering is in great demand. A few years ago the 1st class cup size was reduced as the trolley hot water kept running out on each journey. To this day the cup sizes are still smaller in 1st than in standard. Scotrail are going to be vastly improving catering, both onboard and at new station ToGo kiosks. Their trains will soon have a galley onboard capable of serving hot food. They have already extended the time catering is available onboard. Some of these routes take less than an hour. They will also soon be adding catering to routes that previously didn't have any catering.
It does seem to be the opposite to Chiltern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm always surprised when the railways say that the catering provision is a loss-leader, because that makes me think they're simply not doing it properly. EasyJet have revenue of £70m a year from non-seat revenue. Now I know that isn't just tea and coffee, and I know that airlines have a slightly more captive audience due to liquid restrictions at airports, but still. Selling cups of coffee to the Chinese tourists going to Bicester Village should be like shooting fish in a barrel.

The key difference is staff - the staff cost is zero as you already have to have them.


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