Chiltern to remove on-board catering..

[Greenback]

This is true, though I find there are aspects of air travel that make it more pleasant - for one the lack of a fight over seats.

That's very true! Despite the fact that there are some things that are quite pleasant about flying, overall I don;t find it as nice as rail travel. I suspect that many people agree, even if they choice to fly on routes such as Scotland to London.

Let's keep DOO out of this thread

 

[swt class 450]

So many TOCs seem to be removing their on board catering in recent years (Chiltern Railways / Gatwick Express / London Midland / Southeastern / Southern). In all my years of travelling on trains i have never bought any food or drink on the train before so i personally dont really mind.

I dont travel on the locomotive hauled hauled trains but on the 165 / 168 / 172 trains which have a trolley i usually see quite a few people buying something.

Personally i think most passengers will just buy food and drinks at stations so it wont be too much of a problem. Unless you are travelling between two small rural stations than it could be useful for some passengers to have catering onboard a train.

 

[najaB]

Indeed. Though there is *theoretically* scope to shift the on-train roles around so instead of driver and guard you have a door-operating driver and a safety-trained, ticket-checking, drinks-selling steward.

Safety, revenue assurance and retail sales - that's a lot of hats to wear at the same time.

 

[Jonfun]

This is true, though I find there are aspects of air travel that make it more pleasant - for one the lack of a fight over seats.



Indeed. Though there is *theoretically* scope to shift the on-train roles around so instead of driver and guard you have a door-operating driver and a safety-trained, ticket-checking, drinks-selling steward, it is highly unlikely that any TOC would actually do that because the unions and staff would not find it acceptable, and TOCs doing DOO would rather save money and not have the second member of staff at all (as indeed Chiltern are doing except on the LHCS which operationally requires a guard).

What might be feasible, of course, when we get to full automation, is to have a safety-trained, ticket-selling and drinks-selling steward instead of the driver...but then we're getting properly blue-sky.

Problem being that on anything other than a short, quiet, 2 carriage train, ticket inspections and doing the catering are both full time jobs in themselves, so you end up either both the ticket check and catering being rushed so both ineffective, or one of the two not being done.

In addition, if one member of staff is doing the job of two people then when that one member of staff is away on Annual Leave and nobody will work their rest day and cover it then you get neither a ticket check nor catering.

 

[Clip]

This is true, though I find there are aspects of air travel that make it more pleasant - for one the lack of a fight over seats.



Indeed. Though there is *theoretically* scope to shift the on-train roles around so instead of driver and guard you have a door-operating driver and a safety-trained, ticket-checking, drinks-selling steward, it is highly unlikely that any TOC would actually do that because the unions and staff would not find it acceptable, and TOCs doing DOO would rather save money and not have the second member of staff at all (as indeed Chiltern are doing except on the LHCS which operationally requires a guard).

What might be feasible, of course, when we get to full automation, is to have a safety-trained, ticket-selling and drinks-selling steward instead of the driver...but then we're getting properly blue-sky.

They still require a guard north of Banbury on all services do they not?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Safety, revenue assurance and retail sales - that's a lot of hats to wear at the same time.

True - I suppose airline cabin crew (and there are three or four of them for your typical one railway guard) don't have the middle one to deal with, just safety and retail - and that safety is mostly only an "if required" thing once in the air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's very true! Despite the fact that there are some things that are quite pleasant about flying, overall I don;t find it as nice as rail travel. I suspect that many people agree, even if they choice to fly on routes such as Scotland to London.

Most probably so - and there are ways to bring the good bits of air onto rail (e.g. tweaking with how seats are allocated and reserved[1] so the boarding scrum can go away) but not so much the other way round (nobody's going to propose the removal of airport security any time soon, and for most that's the really nasty but necessary bit).

[1] Fully compulsory reservations have big downsides, but I am a big fan of the principle (not the implementation) of XC TMR, and think the concept could do very well - instead of marking reserved seats you'd simply mark which coaches or areas are reserved or unreserved, and make it possible to obtain a reserved seat of your choice by lots of different means - phone app, text, ticket office, TVM, dedicated machine on board - at any time.

 

[sheff1]

Safety, revenue assurance and retail sales - that's a lot of hats to wear at the same time.

It can work, but not on a TOC like Chiltern.

Where I have encountered it (in Sweden) the experience was very civilised. One boards the train and takes a seat. The staff member approaches with a trolley, they check or sell you a ticket and then offer a selection of drinks and light snacks. Most passengers seemed to buy at least a drink - probably because the stations are quite rural and unlikely to have catering outlets nearby.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can work, but not on a TOC like Chiltern.

Where I have encountered it (in Sweden) the experience was very civilised. One boards the train and takes a seat. The staff member approaches with a trolley, they check or sell you a ticket and then offer a selection of drinks and light snacks. Most passengers seemed to buy at least a drink - probably because the stations are quite rural and unlikely to have catering outlets nearby.

Back in the late 1990s DB guards on regional services often sold coffee - but it was just coffee, not a complicated offering.

It's interesting you mention rural lines - when travelling between cities I always buy before boarding, but I often travel to/from Ulverston to visit family, and there's absolutely nothing at all anywhere near the station least of all on a Sunday when there's no trolley either. It's actually that sort of journey when I'd most want to be able to buy something on board. Though, to be fair, a vending machine at Ulverston station would satisfy the main requirement quite cheaply - OK, I'd ideally like a coffee but I'll settle for a can of Coke and a choccy bar - I'm not wanting a full meal, and if I do there's quite a lot of options reasonably near Preston station (though curiously for a station that size almost nothing actually on the station).

Or, thinking on, as it's a staffed station, a concept similar to Mtogo would work reasonably too. (I actually don't like the concept applied to Merseyrail - it'd be better as a mini-supermarket concession and a row of TVMs - but a relatively rural station where a shop on its own may well not be profitable is very different).

 

[Greenback]

Most probably so - and there are ways to bring the good bits of air onto rail (e.g. tweaking with how seats are allocated and reserved[1] so the boarding scrum can go away) but not so much the other way round (nobody's going to propose the removal of airport security any time soon, and for most that's the really nasty but necessary bit).

We most probably have different ideas about the good bit son both modes. I see flying as primarily a way of getting from A to B. I put up with the inconveniences or hassles such as security, hanging around the airport, baggage reclaim and all of that stuff.

What I do generally like about flying is the view from above, obviously as longer as there's no clouds and you aren't so high that everything becomes a bit of a featureless blur!

[1] Fully compulsory reservations have big downsides, but I am a big fan of the principle (not the implementation) of XC TMR, and think the concept could do very well - instead of marking reserved seats you'd simply mark which coaches or areas are reserved or unreserved, and make it possible to obtain a reserved seat of your choice by lots of different means - phone app, text, ticket office, TVM, dedicated machine on board - at any time.

I disagree with you about TMR, but I agree that there are downsides to compulsory reservations. Though again we are in danger of moving off topic, so I suggest we steer the discussion back to Chiltern and their ending of catering.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

you cant exactly take your pint from spoons on the plane can you?

Well, you say that, but I witnessed one (loud, drunk) young lady getting the train out of Birmingham one evening recently with a stein of beer from the Christmas market...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well, you say that, but I witnessed one (loud, drunk) young lady getting the train out of Birmingham one evening recently with a stein of beer from the Christmas market...

Surprised she got away with that. In my experience the security staff at the Birmingham market are very big on ensuring open containers of alcohol do not go out of the market area.

FWIW you can take coffee on an easyJet flight from the airport as long as it as a lid, but I think most people don't realise that.

 

[najaB]

FWIW you can take coffee on an easyJet flight from the airport as long as it as a lid, but I think most people don't realise that.

And just to show that inconsistency isn't the sole preserve of the railway, Flybe specifically ban doing so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And just to show that inconsistency isn't the sole preserve of the railway, Flybe specifically ban doing so.

I *think* Ryanair do too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are plenty of other such inconsistencies. easyJet ban taking razors on board including cartridge type safety razors - however, as UK airport security permits that type of safety razors (as there's not an awful lot you could do with one that you shouldn't), there is not a lot they can do to actually enforce it, unlike coffee which won't be hidden in your bag.

 

[Greenback]

Please stay on topic!

 

[takno]

The problem is that the offering is poor, and the prices are set like it isn't.

For trolleys you rarely if ever actually see it, and if you do they will be charging north of two quid for instant coffee. If they knocked 10-20% off the price and motivated the staff to make themselves visible (ideally through better commissions) they could probably do a lot better.

For shops/buffet cars they need to be serving real coffee using actual milk rather than having one of those all-in powdered nonsense things, and even if they don't have space or staff time for an actual kitchen, they could cram in a panini press. I feel like somebody must also have developed a burger concept where you can microwave the contents, toast the bun separately and just empty the contents onto the bun. Or have a pie warmer. Basically there's a whole range of easyish options for hot food which places like Subway massively up their profits from, and given the VAT situation means that cold food on trains is rubbish value there is really no reason not to heat things up.

On Virgin trains they also need to quit it with the shop concept - they sell exactly nothing that you wouldn't expect from a buffet car, and given the horrible quality of what they sell they aren't going to get rid of any more of it by letting you *see* it before you buy.

 

[FordFocus]

Indeed. Though there is *theoretically* scope to shift the on-train roles around so instead of driver and guard you have a door-operating driver and a safety-trained, ticket-checking, drinks-selling steward, it is highly unlikely that any TOC would actually do that because the unions and staff would not find it acceptable, and TOCs doing DOO would rather save money and not have the second member of staff at all (as indeed Chiltern are doing except on the LHCS which operationally requires a guard).

What might be feasible, of course, when we get to full automation, is to have a safety-trained, ticket-selling and drinks-selling steward instead of the driver...but then we're getting properly blue-sky.

I can't see it ever working. The steward/guard/obs/second person would have logistical problems with the trolley. They can't leave the trolley unattended as items go walkabouts. If they needed to deploy the wheelchair ramp, attend the cab to cab phone, needed to assist the driver then the trolley would need to be securely stowed on the train. This storage place takes up about 4 seats and could be several carriages away from where the staff member is.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Perhaps Chiltern could learn from their DB colleagues in Germany: http://www.selecta.com/latest-news/vending-machines-in-trains/

This kind of in-train concept is not new to Selecta. The German train operator DB Regio AG has been our client since 1998. We operate about 100 [on-train vending] machines in the area of Berlin-Brandenburg offering a full range of refreshments from hot drinks to sandwiches, crisps, chocolate bars and cold drinks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For trolleys you rarely if ever actually see it, and if you do they will be charging north of two quid for instant coffee. If they knocked 10-20% off the price and motivated the staff to make themselves visible (ideally through better commissions) they could probably do a lot better.

The best way to do trolley coffee is filter, TBH - it's easy to do well in bulk and shove in a flask. Though SBB have another idea in the form of a Nespresso type machine.

For shops/buffet cars they need to be serving real coffee using actual milk rather than having one of those all-in powdered nonsense things

VTWC's bean to cup machines do use actual milk. The problem with bean to cup is keeping it clean - and I doubt the vibrations of on-train use do it much good either.

I feel like somebody must also have developed a burger concept where you can microwave the contents, toast the bun separately and just empty the contents onto the bun. Or have a pie warmer. Basically there's a whole range of easyish options for hot food which places like Subway massively up their profits from, and given the VAT situation means that cold food on trains is rubbish value there is really no reason not to heat things up.

I think the issue may be hygiene in such a small kitchen. If it's microwaved and handed over without fully opening it, you don't have such requirements as washing hands/changing gloves between dealing with food and dealing with money, for example.

TBH I think if you sell *really good quality* cold food you can probably get away with a 20% uplift for the VAT. And you've got things like those snack boxes which are a nice concept - how about selling those?

On Virgin trains they also need to quit it with the shop concept - they sell exactly nothing that you wouldn't expect from a buffet car, and given the horrible quality of what they sell they aren't going to get rid of any more of it by letting you *see* it before you buy.

I actually quite like being able to browse without asking first, though I'd trade it for a DB-style Bistrowagen with bar tables, a minimalist version of which you could get into the same space.

 

[BanburyBlue]

The problem is that the offering is poor, and the prices are set like it isn't.

For trolleys you rarely if ever actually see it, and if you do they will be charging north of two quid for instant coffee. If they knocked 10-20% off the price and motivated the staff to make themselves visible (ideally through better commissions) they could probably do a lot better.

For shops/buffet cars they need to be serving real coffee using actual milk rather than having one of those all-in powdered nonsense things, and even if they don't have space or staff time for an actual kitchen, they could cram in a panini press. I feel like somebody must also have developed a burger concept where you can microwave the contents, toast the bun separately and just empty the contents onto the bun. Or have a pie warmer. Basically there's a whole range of easyish options for hot food which places like Subway massively up their profits from, and given the VAT situation means that cold food on trains is rubbish value there is really no reason not to heat things up.

On Virgin trains they also need to quit it with the shop concept - they sell exactly nothing that you wouldn't expect from a buffet car, and given the horrible quality of what they sell they aren't going to get rid of any more of it by letting you *see* it before you buy.

I've never used the Business Zone on Chiltern, but I would imaging it is better than the standard trolley. General catering on Chiltern seemed to be discontinued ages ago. Because it's not a comprehensive service, unless you have a pocket timetable in your pocket, you never know which services have catering and which don't. Hence you have to be prepared.

Not sure how the shops on VTWC compare to the shops that used to be on VTXC. I always likes the shops on VTXC. They had some nice offerings (microwave chilli for an afternoon snack rings a bell). Cold drinks were kept in the fridge and they had a real coffee machine.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Perhaps an idea might be if, instead of contracting a catering supplier, the TOCS were to franchise the catering out...?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure how the shops on VTWC compare to the shops that used to be on VTXC. I always likes the shops on VTXC. They had some nice offerings (microwave chilli for an afternoon snack rings a bell). Cold drinks were kept in the fridge and they had a real coffee machine.

Same idea but about twice the size.

 

[headshot119]

Same idea but about twice the size.

Shops on the Voyagers / super voyagers where exactly the same size on both. I don't think the Pendolino shop is much bigger either.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shops on the Voyagers / super voyagers where exactly the same size on both. I don't think the Pendolino shop is much bigger either.

The shop on the Pendolino is significantly bigger than the shop is (was) on the Voyagers. It's about twice the size. The shop on the VTWC Voyagers hasn't changed.

I prefer the shop idea, I can see everything, I can choose the specific item I want, and the fridges mean the beer and pop is actually cold. And that's the problem with trolleys: give it long enough, and you end up serving the beer and the coffee at the exact same temperature.

It isn't a surprise that TOCs are moving away from trolleys. They were brought in as a way of doing the catering on the cheap. But cheap catering at high prices doesn't attract people. I used to regularly have a trip to the Shop (and the buffet before Voyagers) when riding XC. These days I don't so much, the trolley selection (by its very nature) is a load of crap.

It's the British Airways attitude to catering. Make it crap so nobody wants it, then get rid of it. Such a shame. I know airlines are different and I don't want to make a direct comparison, but I simply don't understand how TOCs can't make a profit on it. I think it's more that they can't be bothered. Not Invented Here syndrome.

The best way to do trolley coffee is filter, TBH - it's easy to do well in bulk and shove in a flask. Though SBB have another idea in the form of a Nespresso type machine.

Ryanair's Lavazza coffee is even better, it comes as filter grounds in the cup with a special lid to drink it through. The convenience of instant coffee, with the taste of the real deal. It's worth what they charge for it. A cup of Nescafe really isn't, even though the Lavazza is probably only pence more expensive to buy from the supplier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shops on the Voyagers / super voyagers where exactly the same size on both. I don't think the Pendolino shop is much bigger either.

It's about twice the size - about a third of a 24m vehicle, rather than about one and a bit window bays on a (23m) Voyager. As the counter is about the same size (though more open-plan) that means much more than twice the display space.

As built Voyagers and Super Voyagers are identical to one another above the floor.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ryanair's Lavazza coffee is even better, it comes as filter grounds in the cup with a special lid to drink it through.

Yes, that is really intriguing (and often a clever gimmick is all you need for a sales pitch).

 

[najaB]

Yes, that is really intriguing (and often a clever gimmick is all you need for a sales pitch).

It actually is half-decent coffee. I agree it's worth what they charge for it, where instant rarely is.

 

[anti-pacer]

What complimentary offer do Chiltern give their First Class passengers?

 

[AlterEgo]

What complimentary offer do Chiltern give their First Class passengers?

They don't have First Class, it's the Business Zone, and it's tea and coffee only.

 

[Starmill]

I think since April, TransPennine Express have been serving the same coffee as the Ryanair one people are describing.