Chiltern to remove on-board catering..

[trainophile]

Last time I was on TPE (two weeks ago) I asked for tea, and they brought a cup of hot water and a sealed teabag. Had to make it myself! hock:

 

[DelayRepay]

I do think it's a shame that we're seeing such a decline in on train catering, but I suppose it is inevitable. When I make a long journey, being able to get a coffee (and maybe a sandwich or some hot food depending on the time of day) is part of the attraction of travelling by train.

The problem, as has already been mentioned, is reliability. If for some reason advertised catering isn't provided, I am an unhappy customer. Although I don't complain, I bet some people do which results in extra work for the TOC dealing with the complaints. I do find it very annoying when I board a train wishing to buy a coffee and sandwich during the journey and find there is no catering due to staff absence, or all the decent sandwiches are sold out, or there is a fault with the hot water...

Vending machines could be the way forward. They could have the Costa Coffee self service machines that you get in petrol stations etc which produce a decent cuppa. But someone still has to keep them stocked up, clean them and fix them when they break down. And no doubt the guard would be expected to deal with machines which take someone's money but don't give a drink, or dispense cold coffee etc.

 

[philthetube]

The Minimum wage is a problem when it comes to incentivising staff, this had to be paid on top of commission which forces up prices.

Franchising could work well if done properly, a franchisee could pay to provide catering on a specific service/services with basic items such as hot drinks served as specified by the toc, this would allow the service provider to build up customer loyalty which is relevant on any service involving commuters,

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure that the majority of trolley staff are either disincentivised or lack motivation. The one is see regularly on ATW are very good.

I find it difficult to see how your idea would work, sorry. A small business wishing to offer a catering service under a franchise would simply face the same issues of compliance with the minimum wage if they had any employees. Plus, the cost of paying a TOC would only make sure that prices were kept as high as they are now.

Similarly, a one man band operation would suffer from not enjoying economies of scale.

 

[najaB]

Last time I was on TPE (two weeks ago) I asked for tea, and they brought a cup of hot water and a sealed teabag. Had to make it myself! hock:

You can't make tea with hot water! hock: The horror.

 

[headshot119]

I'm not sure that the majority of trolley staff are either disincentivised or lack motivation. The one is see regularly on ATW are very good.

I find it difficult to see how your idea would work, sorry. A small business wishing to offer a catering service under a franchise would simply face the same issues of compliance with the minimum wage if they had any employees. Plus, the cost of paying a TOC would only make sure that prices were kept as high as they are now.

Similarly, a one man band operation would suffer from not enjoying economies of scale.

Doesn't a one man band provide catering on Northern services over the Settle Carlisle? Or at least used to? I wonder how that worked / how profitable it was.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn't a one man band provide catering on Northern services over the Settle Carlisle? Or at least used to? I wonder how that worked / how profitable it was.

At one point it was the FoSCL who were doing it, and the staff member was a volunteer. On a scenic line I can quite see why someone who is retired would do that because it was enjoyable, and of course the effect of it is to tip the economics back to the way (zero effective staff cost) it is on an airline. Also quite likely that in such a case the TOC will give free travel rather than charging a cut.

 

[Greenback]

I don't know if there are any one man bands operating a trolley service on a for profit basis, but it would be interesting to know if there were.

The Heart of Wales line also has volunteers who offer a catering service.

 

[nickdavies]

Maybe Indian Railways style chai wallahs is the way forward. Definitely one-man bands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe Indian Railways style chai wallahs is the way forward. Definitely one-man bands.

chaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichaichai

 

[sheff1]

As people have mentioned, reliability is very important. If passengers are let down they are far more likely to buy something before boarding than risk being let down again.

TOCs can shoot themselves in the foot in other ways too. The other day I was travelling from Leicester to Luton Airport. The screens at Leicester showed there was no catering available on the train and frequent announcements were made as well. After boarding there was an immediate announcement that the buffet bar was open and clear for service. The catering staff had clearly been on board from Nottingham, yet EMT were encouraging people to buy before they got on the train !

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I don't know if there are any one man bands operating a trolley service on a for profit basis, but it would be interesting to know if there were.

The Heart of Wales line also has volunteers who offer a catering service.

I seem to remember something was trialled on the [London to] Hastings line after SE cut that a few years ago, but it didn't last very long.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

As people have mentioned, reliability is very important. If passengers are let down they are far more likely to buy something before boarding than risk being let down again.

TOCs can shoot themselves in the foot in other ways too. The other day I was travelling from Leicester to Luton Airport. The screens at Leicester showed there was no catering available on the train and frequent announcements were made as well. After boarding there was an immediate announcement that the buffet bar was open and clear for service. The catering staff had clearly been on board from Nottingham, yet EMT were encouraging people to buy before they got on the train !

On numerous occasions I have been on services where the card machine is broken, or there's no staff member at all, and it hasn't been mentioned until you're just pulling out of the station! Presumably something like crew shortage is known for quite some time in advance but it's not relayed to punters to provision accordingly. For example, at the origin it may be known 20 minutes beforehand that something's awry, and so it can be announced and those who need something can then go and buy it on the station or elsewhere, but instead there's nothing until it's too late for anyone to rectify it!

 

[nickdavies]

Chiltern haven't helped themselves on the loco hauled stock. Putting the buffet/open first at the London end doesn't help, few people four or five coaches back will bother to make the pilgrimage. I'm sure it would do better in the middle of the train. And it would help if they put them back to the original Mk3 buffet layout, and/or provided an attractive standing area. That grim hatchway with a view into the galley, and no view of the stock on offer must be the least attractive arrangement possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH on a train like that the only value of having a buffet counter is if you have a standing cafe area to be used as a social area like a moving pub. Without that, I'd rather have at-seat service so I don't have to faff about packing my laptop etc up.

Technology has probably caused the main shift. In say 1995 I'd be travelling with maybe 20 quid in my wallet as the only thing of actual value with me. Now I mostly travel with over £2,000 worth of electronics (nearer £4,000 if I'm on a work trip as I'll have my quite expensive work laptop too), some of which is not exactly convenient to carry to the buffet and back, and I'm certainly not leaving it there, as (a) I don't want my stuff nicked, and (b) I'd be sacked if I lost a work laptop by leaving it lying around on a train (and quite rightly so, it would be downright negligent).

 

[daikilo]

You can't make tea with hot water! hock: The horror.

The ideal temperature to start brewing for a good quality tea is 70-85degC depending on the tea. It should never be boiling but it must then stand preferably with an occasional stir. Water for infusions may need to be a little hotter. Given that the teabag is not the most expensive part of the sold drink then offering a decent one makes sense.

Easyjet offer a choice of teas, coffee, chocolate, infusions, soup, porridge and a pasta dish, all using just their not-boiling water although they seem to go to the kitchen to use just-heated water for the last ones.

 

[najaB]

...(b) I'd be sacked if I lost a work laptop by leaving it lying around on a train (and quite rightly so, it would be downright negligent).

I must confess, I quite often leave the laptop there when I go to the toilet/buffet. I always take the phone, but I've always thought that a laptop isn't as tempting since it's not easy to pocket without the person besides/opposite noticing.

 

[najaB]

The ideal temperature to start brewing for a good quality tea is 70-85degC depending on the tea. It should never be boiling but it must then stand preferably with an occasional stir.

This is potentially going to erupt into a bigger debate than Voyager v HST, but for standard black tea the water should be somewhere around 90-95°C, cooler than that and you don't release the tannins. 70-85°C is probably about right for green teas.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know if there are any one man bands operating a trolley service on a for profit basis, but it would be interesting to know if there were.

Must be difficult wheeling the trolley down the aisle if you have to carry all those musical instruments as well. I suppose they could make a little money on the side from busking.

 

[Butts]

I don't think the station food outlets are quite as pricey as those at airports. For the price-conscious many stations have a supermarket, Tesco Express or similar nearby - an option not available at airports.

You obviously don't get out of The East Midlands very often

Glasgow Airport has got a Tesco Express and most Airports have Boots and WH Smith competing in the Meal Deal Stakes. Admittedly they may be a bit dearer than the High St at around £4 - still cheaper than onboard Flybe or Easyjet . Some airports have got Greggs (Newcastle?) and a lot (Birmingham) have Spars that do meal deals.

 

[island]

As well as price, I suggest the main reasons for the decline in on-board catering is availability. If passengers know there is a good chance the trolley will have sold out of whatever they want, or not appear at all, then any that really want food on their journey will bring it on board with them. Any that don't really want food but might be tempted will probably be put off by the high prices and limited selection.

This, really. The inconsistent availability/random closures for stocktakes/etc. mean that if I want food on board, I'm not going to take the chance of trying to find it because it might not be there.

 

[daveymilo]

It's all about striking a balance.

At one operator 18 years ago, self employed, staff were selling "at 33%" - eg £1800 stock sold p/week, keep £600 (tax and NI was a rather misty, grey area, but despite that, this was the most financially successful, productive model I've ever seen in rail catering.)

This model was eg £1 a tea or coffee, butties people actually wanted to buy - lincolnshire sausage and onion, well filled ploughmans etc. Extras - 50p a bag of crisps, 80p for a can of coke, £2 for a can of Stella 500ml, £2.50 for doubleshot miniatures.
The trolley was reliable, and many of the customers were generally repeat buyers, same train each day.

A key indicator was the staff car park. Conductors would have minis, fiestas, mopeds, bikes; drivers would have estate cars, hatchbacks and family cars.... whilst the trolley staff were pulling up in convertables and beamers

Then along came the RailGourmets, SkyTracs etc keen to make their own cut. They'd charge £2.20 for an instant coffee, and then wonder why sales had dropped. They'd then abandon it, and the TOC would take over, charging the same £2.20, then tell the passengers it's all being scrapped as 'no-one buys off the trolley anymore' (duuh!)

It's really not about the on-station offerings being improved, as the TOCs have always blamed.

Britain's Railway 2016 :P

Well said


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[edwin_m]

You obviously don't get out of The East Midlands very often

Glasgow Airport has got a Tesco Express and most Airports have Boots and WH Smith competing in the Meal Deal Stakes. Admittedly they may be a bit dearer than the High St at around £4 - still cheaper than onboard Flybe or Easyjet . Some airports have got Greggs (Newcastle?) and a lot (Birmingham) have Spars that do meal deals.

The Tesco Express at Glasgow Airport is landside, so not really relevant here as you'd have to buy before going through security, so not within the hour before flying unless you're willing to cut it fine. Any drinks bought would have to be finished before security. It's not much different to buying before you get to the airport.

I've flown from Luton, Gatwick and East Midlands in the last six months, none of which has a general supermarket airside. WHS has always struck me as exorbitant for almost any food - if there is a decent meal deal price I've missed it through not bothering to look. I agree there is Boots but their airport prices are more expensive than other branches. The prices at assorted overseas airports seem to be similarly inflated.

 

[takno]

You obviously don't get out of The East Midlands very often

Glasgow Airport has got a Tesco Express and most Airports have Boots and WH Smith competing in the Meal Deal Stakes. Admittedly they may be a bit dearer than the High St at around £4 - still cheaper than onboard Flybe or Easyjet . Some airports have got Greggs (Newcastle?) and a lot (Birmingham) have Spars that do meal deals.

Fairly sure Newcastle is the only airport Greggs, and it's landside. Boots are starting to fall away (gone from Edinburgh in the last few months, expect to see them disappear from Gatwick imminently). I've never seen a Spar in an airport, including Birmingham so god knows where it's hiding. Smiths charge airport special pricing. Last I checked buying food flightside pretty much anywhere is at least as expensive as Easyjet. Flybe are still more expensive, but honestly the prices on Flybe are insane, and their sales on flights I've been on have been correspondingly low.

 

[Butts]

Fairly sure Newcastle is the only airport Greggs, and it's landside. Boots are starting to fall away (gone from Edinburgh in the last few months, expect to see them disappear from Gatwick imminently). I've never seen a Spar in an airport, including Birmingham so god knows where it's hiding. Smiths charge airport special pricing. Last I checked buying food flightside pretty much anywhere is at least as expensive as Easyjet. Flybe are still more expensive, but honestly the prices on Flybe are insane, and their sales on flights I've been on have been correspondingly low.

There is a Spar at Birmingham Airport by the Car Hire Desks. I'm sure there is one at Manchester Airport as well.

 

[dk1]

Fairly sure Newcastle is the only airport Greggs, and it's landside. Boots are starting to fall away (gone from Edinburgh in the last few months, expect to see them disappear from Gatwick imminently). I've never seen a Spar in an airport, including Birmingham so god knows where it's hiding. Smiths charge airport special pricing. Last I checked buying food flightside pretty much anywhere is at least as expensive as Easyjet. Flybe are still more expensive, but honestly the prices on Flybe are insane, and their sales on flights I've been on have been correspondingly low.

What makes you think any of the Boots outlets at Gatwick are closing?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Greggs and M&S Food are at Newcastle Airport, but they're landside. So no use for liquids. Boots and Smiths are airside but charge significantly more than they do on the high street. The only shop that doesn't seem to mark up at airports and stations is Pret, possibly because they're already expensive enough.

 

[island]

Boots airport stores charge the same as their railway station stores, which whilst higher than high street locations is still only a modest markup. For example, meal deals are 30p more, and two bottles of soft drinks or water are 20p more.

I fear we are getting off topic however.

 

[stu]

I travel from Leamington <-> London quite often, and I wasn't even aware Chiltern did catering trollies etc. Most journey times aren't worth it in my opinion.

 

[randyrippley]

Western Region couldn't make the microbuffets work in their Cross-Country DMUs. By the mid-1960's the buffet hatches were all locked out of use.
It didn't work then, why should it work now? Classic example of failure to learn from history