Dom395
Member
I'm keeping a neutral stance on the matter right now, it's hard to tell whether he'll make a positive or negative impact but I'm certainly intrigued by the change America have made.
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Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency
- Thread starter backontrack
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I'm keeping a neutral stance on the matter right now, it's hard to tell whether he'll make a positive or negative impact but I'm certainly intrigued by the change America have made.
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That doesn't really answer how a UK constitution would be good to protect our freedoms.
Tim R-T-C
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That doesn't really answer how a UK constitution would be good to protect our freedoms.
A constitution protects that which its framers deem to be worth protection.
Whether these are always freedoms is open to debate. Are people in America free because others can carry heavy firearms around on the street?
Outline which freedoms we have lost in the UK and how a UK constitution would address this. Why are you asking me if some are free in America because others can carry firearms? I was responding to someone who said we should have a constitution to protect our freedoms.
MidnightFlyer
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That doesn't really answer how a UK constitution would be good to protect our freedoms.
That was just me slipping off into my libertarian utopia
We do of course already have a constitution in this country, uncodified, in the form of all of the acts of parliament. It never would work in this country firstly because we'd never agree it, and secondly because the manner in which the US one was written is worlds away from anything we will most likely ever experience over here. I just wish we had something, from my point of view, that would preserve individualism whenever something like what I listed way back upthread arises. All we seem to have presently is undefined wibble such as 'British Values' which doesn't really help anyone. In all honesty I'm probably more after something that limits the scope of government as opposed to individual rights or freedoms.That was just me slipping off into my libertarian utopia
Ah fair play mate. I wouldn't argue with that. It would be nice to reach the kind of stage you seem to be looking at, I hate the idea of British Values, what the hell are they? Well we certainly live in interesting times which I believe is an ancient Chinese curse. Ha ha.
Be a racist, send your kids down the mines to work, beat your wife, invade other countries to create an Empire, treat people who work for you however you like with them having no recourse, die because you can't afford treatment. Etc. etc.
Hopefully when we leave the EU we can get back to the good old days.
As for Trump I find it difficult to fathom how your average hard working American voted for him. He is a shining example of too few people having too much of the worlds wealth.
I should pack your bags and head for a Marxist paradise - Oh Wait, there isn't one. There's just people like you scaremongering the rest.
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Are you really serious or just quoting the populist liberal belief.
ExRes
Established Member
Well it seems that current British values are, according to Ofsted, democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect for and tolerance of those with different faiths and beliefs and for those without faith
You hate the idea of those?, I thought it was only us over 50s that hated things like that and supported a return to slavery, empire and sending children up chimneys
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Those values aren't British; they've been around longer than our country has. Our country is mostly a mix of Ancient Greek values with a Judeo-Christian slant.
The values are good, but trying to claim them as our own is daft.
ExRes
Established Member
Whether you agree with them or not is entirely your choice, they are the values set by the DfE for schools to promote. Perhaps you could suggest some values that haven't been thought of previously by other civilisations and subsequently recycled
Wilts Wanderer
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FWIW I think the US electorate will find out pretty quickly that Donald Trump is simply a bag of hot air without substance. He's said what he needed to get access to the White House but you need more than just words to make a difference.
When you're a tycoon you can afford to surround yourself with yes-men but simply claiming something will happen because you've said it will is a million miles from it actually happening.
Prediction; one election term, no major successes, general deterioration in foreign relations without the leap in the economy that he's predicting, no major wars caused and continued growth in voter anger and apathy in equal measure.
If there's going to be a political revolution, the really dangerous election will be the next time around.
When you're a tycoon you can afford to surround yourself with yes-men but simply claiming something will happen because you've said it will is a million miles from it actually happening.
Prediction; one election term, no major successes, general deterioration in foreign relations without the leap in the economy that he's predicting, no major wars caused and continued growth in voter anger and apathy in equal measure.
If there's going to be a political revolution, the really dangerous election will be the next time around.
No he's not, and that kind of statement doesn't help, either the seriousness of mental illness.
185
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
It would be daft if the claim was that those values are uniquely British (in the sense of being our values and no one else's), but I don't think that's the claim being made. Rather, by describing things like democracy and tolerance as British values, the claim is that those are key values that should characterize British society today. That seems quite sensible to me - especially since one of the Governments aims seems to be to promote acceptance of those values.
That understanding is also perfectly consistent with accepting that those values are also key values of many other countries and other cultures, and that British society has evolved, and historically did not embrace those values that we consider important today.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Please read my post again, because you entirely missed the point.
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Unfortunately I find that a great many people don't seem to be aware that our values are not unique to us.
It's true that the more you travel, the more you realise people are the same everywhere.
I did not make that statement either as a joke or hyperbole. He very comfortably fits the diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder. [source]
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furnessvale
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Source: USA Today
Even the BBC felt it had to ask the question, "were both photos taken at the same time of the day".
Certainly the buildings in the background are lit differently but that could be down to weather conditions.
I am not a supporter of Trump but manufactured news is bad, no matter who is the target.
Yes; you could argue about it. From what i have heard the crowd difference between Obama and Trump was 50 %; 1.8 against 0.9 million. The picture looks more worse and yes; when was the picture of Donald Trump audience taken! Point taken!
Same old same old, I don't like the country the way it is so I must want it to be like a Communist dictatorship. Get over yourself.
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The things you mentioned are not British Values. Trying to make out that they are British Values sums up my point. It gives off the impression that someone from Germany or Spain or Poland does not believe in the same. I think you should use the term human values. Making out that the British are somehow better is just idiotic. Makes you sound like Al Murray when he is in character.
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DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I don't often agree with ExRes, but I think he is right here. The stuff he mentioned (democracy, tolerance etc.) are British values to the extent that they are values that are commonly accepted in the UK, roughly supported by most mainstream UK parties, and promoted (albeit imperfectly on occasions) by our Government. I don't see how making that claim carries any implication that someone from Germany or Spain or Poland won't share those values - and I wonder if you are understanding the phrase 'British values' in a different way from how I understand the phrase.
Besides, there is a serious issue that although the countries you mentioned generally share those values, there are other cultures that don't share those values to anything like the same extent (many middle-eastern countries come to mind). That does mean that immigrants to the UK from those areas may well, through no fault of their own, be unaccustomed to things like democracy and tolerance - so it does make sense to promote those values to make sure those people understand the importance of that kind of thing in the UK.
ExRes
Established Member
As I stated earlier, these are British values as quoted by the DfE
Just because they are called 'British values' in no way means that other countries cannot also have them
Who is 'making out that the British are somehow better'?
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Agreed. They are British values, and that doesn't in any way suggest those values aren't shared with any other cultures.
Apologies to anyone I have offended. I often relate people barking on about "British Values" to people who are deeply intolerant such as Britain First, the EDL etc. I apologise if I have inadvertently associated any of you with such people.
It isn't so much the possibility of amendinding the Amedment that's the point, it's more a question of interpreting the meaning of the Amendment as it stands. As someone who takes an interest in US politics, I happemn to have a PDF of the US Consitiution on my computer, despite being thoroughly British and never having been west of St. Malo. To quote:
As can be seen, the way it's written is, to early 21st century minds, rather ambiguous; many, though (and I find theirs a convincing argument) consider that, set against the global situation at the time (many states having absolute monarchs who ruled almost unopposed) that their main intention was to enable the States to prevent a future President from declaring himself an absolute monarch (not as remote as proaspect as it might seem to us)and that the inclusion of the caveat "A well-regulated Militia..." indicates that they were thinking of state armies when the gave the people the right to own firearms, rather than the virtual free-for-all with no organisation and little regulation which exists at present in addition to the state Militia which do exist.
One might also point-out that the authors of the Constitution were used to muskets and single-shot pistols; expecting them to foresee the invention of pump-action and semi-automatic weaponry of staggering power and accuracy would be extremely unreasonable, and, had they known that this level of development was going to take place, it sems conceivable that they may have been more explicit in their intentions.
Do you mean globally? AFAIK, it's all to do with them being a signatory to, and therefore a defender of, various anti-proliferation agreements.
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No, I mean from the American Public. They have a right to bear arms. Nuclear Weapons are arms, therefore the 2nd amendment guarantees the right of every Tom, Hick or Billy-Bob to own them.
If it doesn't, then why does it allow them to own M1-Abrams tanks, Surface-Air missiles, 50mm shells, smallpox vials, P90s, M15s, Glocks, etc. Why is there a line?
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Thx, but you haven't offended me - to me, it was simply a normal debate! I think it is true that far-right groups often try to (mis)use the banner of patriotism to promote their agenda, which can lead to a misplaced association with 'British values'. That is pretty ironic because generally the agenda of these groups runs completely against what I - and I suspect most people who think about it - would consider to be decent values - especially when it comes to 'tolerance'.