More GTR Gatwick Express OBS nonsense.

[swt class 450]

I'm not entirely sure what section to put this in but i've put it in this section as it is mainly about fares. So i saw some more OBS nonsense on a Gatwick Express train that i was on today. After leaving Gatwick Airport (going towards London Victoria) the OBS made this nonsense announcement.

"This is the OBS speaking. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only. I would like to remind passengers that first class accommodation is strictly for the use of first class ticket holders only. Passengers with standard class tickets who are sitting or standing in first class will be fined a Penalty Fare. I would also like to remind passengers that your ticket must state "any permitted" to be valid on this service. Tickets which state "southern only" or "thameslink only" or "not gatwick express" are strictly not valid on this service. Passengers who use these tickets on this service will be fined a Penalty Fare. Thank you for your attention"

There are so many things wrong with his announcements. I don't see why he needed to make such a strict sounding announcement threatening passengers with Penalty Fares! Firstly on all GX trains first class is 100% identical to standard class so any OBS (or RPI) who gives out Penalty Fares on GX for using standard class tickets in first class is crazy! Secondly Penalty Fares are not fines (so you can not get "fined" a Penalty Fare). Thirdly to say that "southern only" and "thameslink only" and "not gatwick express" marked tickets are not valid on GX is an absolute joke. GN / GX / SN / TL are all brand names of the exact same company (GTR)! I'm sure it has been discussed before but i don't think TOCs are allowed to restrict tickets by brand names. What GTR are doing is basically the same as if London Overground had "East London Line only" and "North London Line only" tickets for journeys between Highbury & Islington and Canonbury stations! Or if London Underground had "Circle Line only" and "District Line only" tickets for journeys between Embankment and Westminster stations!

To make things even more ridiculous he spent the entire journey hiding in the rear cab! Despite making his threatening announcement about Penalty Fares he didn't bother to walk down the train or check tickets at all! I have now been on 18 GX trains with an OBS and not a single one of them has walked through the train or checked tickets. And only four of them have made announcements.

GX are just wasting their money having OBS on board. I fully support having Guards on board who are fully safety critical and open and close doors and carry out despatch duties at stations but having these OBS on board is just 100% pointless.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Do forum members specifically travel on the Gatwick Express in order to get riled up?

 

[gray1404]

Does anyone know if OBS are even Authorised Collectors to issue Penalty Fares? There is no way a PF could be issued for using a GTR service (which they choose to brand GX) with a SN or TL or Not GX branded ticket.

 

[yorkie]

"This is the OBS speaking. This train is the Gatwick Express service to London Victoria calling at London Victoria only. I would like to remind passengers that first class accommodation is strictly for the use of first class ticket holders only. Passengers with standard class tickets who are sitting or standing in first class will be fined a Penalty Fare. I would also like to remind passengers that your ticket must state "any permitted" to be valid on this service. Tickets which state "southern only" or "thameslink only" or "not gatwick express" are strictly not valid on this service. Passengers who use these tickets on this service will be fined a Penalty Fare. Thank you for your attention"

This person appears to be admitting intention to breach the Ticketing Settlement Agreement.

To make things even more ridiculous he spent the entire journey hiding in the rear cab!

The whole point of an OBS is that they should be highly visible, so I'd report this for investigation, though it'll be up to the company to determine if the OBS was acting correctly or not in that respect.

 

[swt class 450]

Does anyone know if OBS are even Authorised Collectors to issue Penalty Fares? There is no way a PF could be issued for using a GTR service (which they choose to brand GX) with a SN or TL or Not GX branded ticket.

I think only the OBS that used to be RPIs can issue Penalty Fares (although i don't think they really bother to check tickets let alone issue Penalty Fares any more). However i don't think that the ex Guard OBS and new recruit OBS can issue Penalty Fares.

 

[yorkie]

Do forum members specifically travel on the Gatwick Express in order to get riled up?

I don't understand your point.

A far more appropriate question would be "Do some OBS specifically make announcements to get people riled up?"

Does anyone know if OBS are even Authorised Collectors to issue Penalty Fares? There is no way a PF could be issued for using a GTR service (which they choose to brand GX) with a SN or TL or Not GX branded ticket.

It would not be within the Penalty Fare legislation nor would it be compliant with the TSA.

Compliance with both is a franchise commitment for the train company operating these trains, Govia Thameslink Railway.

 

[swt class 450]

This person appears to be admitting intention to breach the Ticketing Settlement Agreement.

The whole point of an OBS is that they should be highly visible, so I'd report this for investigation, though it'll be up to the company to determine if the OBS was acting correctly or not in that respect.

I would like to report these OBS and their announcements to GTR but sadly i dont think that they really care. Nothing ever seems to change with GTR. Unlike all of the lies which GTR has told everyone for the past year or so OBS (both the Gatwick Express ones and the Southern ones) seem to actually be far less visible than Guards were.

 

[bb21]

Why not in that case simply lodge a complaint, and then when the inevitable unsatisfactory response comes, raise it with Transport Focus?

 

[gray1404]

I think only the OBS that used to be RPIs can issue Penalty Fares (although i don't think they really bother to check tickets let alone issue Penalty Fares any more). However i don't think that the ex Guard OBS and new recruit OBS can issue Penalty Fares.

I wasn't aware that GTR had moved some staff from being RPIs to OBS. I thought it was just a new role that they had moved former guards into and of course any new recruits).

 

[swt class 450]

I wasn't aware that GTR had moved some staff from being RPIs to OBS. I thought it was just a new role that they had moved former guards into and of course any new recruits).

From what i have heard i believe that 100% of all Southern and Gatwick Express RPIs have been converted to become OBS. I dont think that GTRs Southern and Gatwick Express brands have any RPIs any more.

 

[gray1404]

From what i have heard i believe that 100% of all Southern and Gatwick Express RPIs have been converted to become OBS. I dont think that GTRs Southern and Gatwick Express brands have any RPIs any more.

Thanks for the info!

WOW! That is a big move! I cannot understand why any TOC would all of a sudden get rid of their RPIs, moreover if much of their route operates PFs. I really cannot understand why they would make such a move.

The question now though is are the OBS (e.g. those that are former RPIs) instructed to issued PFs or not... Second, do they remain an Authorised Collector upon becoming an OBS. If so, they they simply would be unable to issue a PF.

 

[swt class 450]

Thanks for the info!

WOW! That is a big move! I cannot understand why any TOC would all of a sudden get rid of their RPIs, moreover if much of their route operates PFs. I really cannot understand why they would make such a move.

The question now though is are the OBS (e.g. those that are former RPIs) instructed to issued PFs or not... Second, do they remain an Authorised Collector upon becoming an OBS. If so, they they simply would be unable to issue a PF.

I think it is just another way for GTR to save money. I guess its cheaper to combine the OBS and RPI roles. The whole entire Southern network is an absoulute paradise for fare evaders nowadays.

I think even the ex RPI OBS lack any motivation to do a ticket inspection or cant be bothered seeing as it is no longer their main job to check tickets and issue Penalty Fares (as it would of been when they were RPIs before OBS were introduced). But then the ex Guard OBS and new recruit OBS dont seem to have any motivation to do ticket checks either. I would also be very interested to know whether the ex RPI OBS are instructed to issue Penalty Fares.

When GTR first announced their OBS plans they produced all this lies and nonsense saying that OBS would be far more visible than Guards and would walk through the train carrying out ticket checks and assisting passengers throughout the journey. This however doesnt seem to have happened.

The Southern OBS (but not that Gatwick Express OBS) are meant to insert a key in the door panel (to make sure the driver doesnt close the doors and leave them on the platform) at every stop and step on to the platform to check for disabled passengers (although in reality most of them dont bother to open up the panel and insert their key and instead just quickly stick their head out the door or rear cab window). But other than that they still have plenty of time to walk through the train checking tickets and assisting passengers (especially as they dont have any safety critical duties) but sadly they dont.

 

[yorkie]

I wasn't aware that GTR had moved some staff from being RPIs to OBS.

It's been well documented in numerous threads

Thanks for the info!

WOW! That is a big move! I cannot understand why any TOC would all of a sudden get rid of their RPIs, moreover if much of their route operates PFs. I really cannot understand why they would make such a move.

The idea (in theory!) is that all the company's "Southern" and "Gatwick Express" branded trains have someone on board who will patrol the train checking tickets. They are not "getting rid" of ticket checking staff.

When GTR first announced their OBS plans they produced all this lies and nonsense saying that OBS would be far more visible than Guards and would walk through the train carrying out ticket checks and assisting passengers throughout the journey. This however doesnt seem to have happened..

The company suffers from very poor management. Put in a complaint. When they ignore it, escalate it to Passenger Focus (for a longer distance journey) / London Travelwatch (for Gatwick-London) and you can also report them to the DfT for breaching franchise commitments.

 

[gray1404]

I must have missed that bit. I thought it was just a guards that they were making OBS. I did of course know that the OBS would be checking tickets and the company was not getting rid of ticket checks altogether.

I wonder why issuing PFs is no longer on their agenda. I guess it is a cost cutting measure. This along with no longer taking cash payments on board (and closing most of their booking offices). In that case I think it might be time for the GTR network to have their PF system formally withdrawn if they are not going to enforce it.

The true extent of Southern is really coming to light. They would prefer to close the booking offices, get rid of the guards and have all trains DOO and no longer employ RPIs.

 

[yorkie]

The true extent of Southern is really coming to light. They would prefer to close the booking offices, get rid of the guards and have all trains DOO and no longer employ RPIs.

I think this is a bit middled.

GTR do not "prefer" to do any of those things.

The DfT have instructed GTR to have a visible staff presence on every "Southern" branded train with the OBS patrolling the train selling/checking tickets.

GTR are in the process of complying with the DfT's request to convert relevant staff to OBS, and employ new staff as OBS, however incredibly poor management (as usual) means the staff are not always doing their job correctly, thus undermining the OBS scheme.

This needs to be challenged and reported and escalated to appropriate bodies.

 

[Antman]

however incredibly poor management (as usual) means the staff are not always doing their job correctly, thus undermining the OBS scheme.

Not sure I understand the link, unless you mean ineffective management is failing to challenge poor staff behaviour.

 

[yorkie]

That is exactly what I'm saying, yes.

 

[Antman]

In that case perhaps GTR doesn't want to poor petrol on the fire that is the current relationship with its staff by taking disciplinary action against them.

Wait until the dispute is over and then start sacking those who won't/can't do the job.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In that case perhaps GTR doesn't want to poor petrol on the fire that is the current relationship with its staff by taking disciplinary action against them.

Yes, I suspect on the basis of extremely poor staff satisfaction they probably feel it best to leave well alone for now lest more strikes be called.

 

[pne]

on all GX trains first class is 100% identical to standard class so any OBS (or RPI) who gives out Penalty Fares on GX for using standard class tickets in first class is crazy!

The seating may be 100% identical but is the load pattern identical?

For some trips, a first class ticket might have been purchased in order to increase the chance of getting a seat, rather than for a plush armchair and a dish of roast venison.

Letting the first class compartment get as full as the second class one would defeat that purpose.

 

[yorkie]

The seating may be 100% identical but is the load pattern identical?

For some trips, a first class ticket might have been purchased in order to increase the chance of getting a seat, rather than for a plush armchair and a dish of roast venison.

Letting the first class compartment get as full as the second class one would defeat that purpose.

This is what GTR advertise as being their First Class travel experience:

First Class

Get there first

Travelling on the Gatwick Express gives you a welcome chance to relax before embarking on the rest of your travels. Whether you need refreshments or travel information, everything is taken care of for you. Just sit back and enjoy the journey.


First Class accommodation on board offers everything you need to get you to your destination feeling relaxed and refreshed. Whether you're travelling for business or pleasure the emphasis is on comfort. Our First Class interiors provide a calming and spacious environment for you to make the most of your time whilst travelling to or from the airport.
First Class features include:

• Large, comfortable, reclining seats
• Tables which you can work from
• Complimentary copy of The Telegraph (subject to availability)

I think you and I both agree they should say something like this..?

First Class

First Class accommodation on board offers identical seating and comfort as in standard class, however it is likely that fewer of the seats will be occupied.

First Class features include:

• An antimacassar

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Get there first" is pushing it, unless it's at the front of the train, in which case that is a mere technicality given that the doors don't release any earlier.

But yes, the rest of that is a clear Trades Descriptions Act (or whatever it's called now) breach.

 

[yorkie]

"Get there first" is pushing it, unless it's at the front of the train, in which case that is a mere technicality given that the doors don't release any earlier.

It's a complete joke, especially as at the times most people travel people would get there first by not using the company's GX branded trains at all!

But yes, the rest of that is a clear Trades Descriptions Act (or whatever it's called now) breach.

Agreed. I think GTR/DfT's aim to mislead airport passengers to the maximum extent possible when it comes to GX.

 

[SickyNicky]

Based on a recent trip in first class on the GX, I have corrected this for you:

First Class

First Class accommodation on board offers identical seating and comfort as in standard class, however it is likely that fewer of the seats will be occupied the seats will be occupied by tourists who don't speak English and staff will not move them on (or even appear at all). You can start your journey feeling relaxed as children climb all over the seats and you, and you'll arrive at your destination refreshed by the bottle of coke they have kindly poured over your lap.

First Class features include:
An antimacassar
Toilets that don't work

 

[Starmill]

I'm sure I've made the point before. The company have claimed that OBS staff will be issuing penalty fares. As far as I am aware, no new training to approve this has taken place. I'm open to correction on both points if this understanding is not accurate.

Unfortunately, it should be very obvious why an OBS cannot often issue a penalty fare. They work alone - almost always. They're required to remain with the train. All of the company's RPIs have been transferred into OBS roles. So if a fare evaders simply ignore the OBS when they're being given one, and then alights from the train at the next stop, how are they going to be given the penalty fare?

 

[IanXC]

From what i have heard i believe that 100% of all Southern and Gatwick Express RPIs have been converted to become OBS. I dont think that GTRs Southern and Gatwick Express brands have any RPIs any more.

I suppose that means that the total previous number of Conductors is significantly less than the number of retained Conductors plus OBS, minus leavers. When things settle out it's not impossible to think that OBS who are spare will be deployed to undertake revenue blocks. Should a service then require a replacement OBS for whatever reason they could meet the train at the block, or travel to it from there. (Rather than spare OBS waiting in a messroom).

 

[Clip]

I'm sure I've made the point before. The company have claimed that OBS staff will be issuing penalty fares. As far as I am aware, no new training to approve this has taken place. I'm open to correction on both points if this understanding is not accurate.

Unfortunately, it should be very obvious why an OBS cannot often issue a penalty fare. They work alone - almost always. They're required to remain with the train. All of the company's RPIs have been transferred into OBS roles. So if a fare evaders simply ignore the OBS when they're being given one, and then alights from the train at the next stop, how are they going to be given the penalty fare?

They dont get one. The same as if they get off a train with an RPI and carry on walking - if theres no barriers then theres no PF

 

[Joe Paxton]

... All of the company's RPIs have been transferred into OBS roles. ...

So, just to get this right - GTR no longer has any in-house RPIs? What about on the Great Northern route? Or is this just referring to Southern services/routes?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I would also like to remind passengers that your ticket must state "any permitted" to be valid on this service. Tickets which state "southern only" or "thameslink only" or "not gatwick express" are strictly not valid on this service. Passengers who use these tickets on this service will be fined a Penalty Fare. Thank you for your attention".

Are these branded tickets still being sold?

So would I have a defence if say I held a "Thameslink Only" Brighton - London terminals ticket (with the intention of changing at ECR for VIC); the TL train was cancelled/caped at Gatwick Airport and I got on a GX train to Victoria so that I wouldn't be inconvenienced any further?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Are these branded tickets still being sold?

Yes. The plan is to eradicate the Thameslink-only tickets over time, but "Not Gatwick Express" tickets are staying.

So would I have a defence if say I held a "Thameslink Only" Brighton - London terminals ticket (with the intention of changing at ECR for VIC); the TL train was cancelled/caped at Gatwick Airport and I got on a GX train to Victoria so that I wouldn't be inconvenienced any further?

You wouldn't have a Thameslink-only ticket to get to Victoria as Thameslink doesn't run to Victoria.

(Unless you were up for an argument that is, i.e. if you were up for asserting that a Thameslink-only ticket was actually valid on any GTR train.)