South Western Franchise DMU rolling stock renewal

[Cowley]

Nope.

That was the plan, but the electrification cutbacks in the Thames Valley mean fewer 16x sets go west, so the 158s need to be retained in their current area. The duties the 158s were to transfer to are to get short 2+4 HST sets. Well, that's the current plan....

What services will they be used on 43096? Are they for medium distance services in the southwest then? If that's the case then that sounds pretty good to me.

 

[43096]

Are they for medium distance services in the southwest then? If that's the case then that sounds pretty good to me.

Yes, that is correct. AIUI they will be used on Cardiff-Taunton(-Exeter) and Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance mainline services. Sets get power doors (as with XC and ScotRail) - the first vehicles are at Wabtec Doncaster for conversion.

 

[Cowley]

Yes, that is correct. AIUI they will be used on Cardiff-Taunton(-Exeter) and Exeter-Plymouth-Penzance mainline services. Sets get power doors (as with XC and ScotRail) - the first vehicles are at Wabtec Doncaster for conversion.

Thanks for that, I didn't quite realise that was the plan, I knew about the ones going to Scotland but I must have had my head in a bucket at some point because I thought everything was just delayed etc.
They're going to good fun up Dainton with only four on...

 

[MatthewRead]

Nope.

That was the plan, but the electrification cutbacks in the Thames Valley mean fewer 16x sets go west, so the 158s need to be retained in their current area. The duties the 158s were to transfer to are to get short 2+4 HST sets. Well, that's the current plan....

I'm sure I read somewhere though in the magazines that some 158's would still be moving to Exeter.

 

[43096]

I'm sure I read somewhere though in the magazines that some 158's would still be moving to Exeter.

The plan keeps changing - DfT as usual haven't a clue what they're doing - so one of those scenarios where the only sensible option is to see what happens!

 

[D365]

The plan keeps changing - DfT as usual haven't a clue what they're doing - so one of those scenarios where the only sensible option is to see what happens!

They haven't had a clue what they've been doing since the GWEp began... but that's another story.

 

[Suraggu]

They haven't had a clue what they've been doing since the GWEp began... but that's another story.

https://onthewight.com/island-line-franchise-decision-delayed/

Interesting but it is only 1 source and I don't think this can be 100% verified.

 

[The Ham]

https://onthewight.com/island-line-franchise-decision-delayed/

Interesting but it is only 1 source and I don't think this can be 100% verified.

The December 2016 franchise timetable also has April as the announcement date and August as the start date.

 

[Mollman]

The December 2016 franchise timetable also has April as the announcement date and August as the start date.

Yes they have kept that one quite, August is nicely to throw the new operator into the Waterloo chaos (which favours Stagecoach). You would have though with only two bids to assess it wouldn't get delayed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes they have kept that one quite, August is nicely to throw the new operator into the Waterloo chaos (which favours Stagecoach).

I think this 'problem' is overplayed.

None of the operational people who will have to deal with it will change at the time the franchise changes. SWT staff have been planning it in conjunction with NR staff for years, is it to be seriously suggested that all that planning will be ignored if the franchise changes hands?

 

[Suraggu]

Yes they have kept that one quite, August is nicely to throw the new operator into the Waterloo chaos (which favours Stagecoach). You would have though with only two bids to assess it wouldn't get delayed.

This is only 1 source, usually another credible source would post the news but I have not seen anything of the sort.

 

[43096]

I think this 'problem' is overplayed.



None of the operational people who will have to deal with it will change at the time the franchise changes. SWT staff have been planning it in conjunction with NR staff for years, is it to be seriously suggested that all that planning will be ignored if the franchise changes hands?

The implication behind what you're saying is that senior management have no impact on day-to-day operational delivery. Wrong. Very, very wrong.

A new owner is inevitably disrupting for everyone - management are dealing with changes, staff are much more uncertain etc etc.

Why would you take the chance and add another issue to the list of things that might make the plan go wrong? It is just more grade A idiocy from DfT.

 

[Suraggu]

The implication behind what you're saying is that senior management have no impact on day-to-day operational delivery. Wrong. Very, very wrong.

A new owner is inevitably disrupting for everyone - management are dealing with changes, staff are much more uncertain etc etc.

Why would you take the chance and add another issue to the list of things that might make the plan go wrong? It is just more grade A idiocy from DfT.

Hit the nail on the head with that one.

If First/MTR has the winning bid it would be extremely prudent of them to leave it alone for that period in August and get the platform extension phase of the Waterloo remodel out of the way and then they can start to implement their ideology.

It seems to be pretty much across the board from what I have seen and heard, passengers are generally happy with Stagecoach and the way the current franchise is run, except for the people of Surrey complaining the new 707's have no toilets.

 

[Mollman]

I think this 'problem' is overplayed.

None of the operational people who will have to deal with it will change at the time the franchise changes. SWT staff have been planning it in conjunction with NR staff for years, is it to be seriously suggested that all that planning will be ignored if the franchise changes hands?

However GWR franchise is as it is because the DfT didn't want a new operator coming in halfway through Great Western upgrade.

This is only 1 source, usually another credible source would post the news but I have not seen anything of the sort.

DfT have it on their December updated Rail Franchise Schedule

 

[The Ham]

This is only 1 source, usually another credible source would post the news but I have not seen anything of the sort.

Is the DfT franchise timetable credible enough for you:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-franchise-schedule

 

[3141]

I thought it had been intended all along that the new franchise would start in August. The current franchise was due to end in February 2017 and the DfT had the option to extend it for six months. Modern Railways recently had an interview with Christian Roth (MD of SWT) who stated that he intended to be at Waterloo in August unless someone told him otherwise, i.e. he appreciated that August is the time when control of the franchise might change. If my recollection is correct then the change DfT has announced puts back the Award date and shortens the time for mobilisation.

Not a good idea if a new franchisee is taking over. It would be too much to assume from that that Stagecoach is likely to retain it. My guess is that DfT is having to give more consideration to proposals for new rolling stock and the likely cost with the value of the £ having gone down. If bidders are proposing electrification to Salisbury (or beyond) then DfT would be wanting to check Network Rail's estimates about 500 times. Could be many reasons why they need to make sure this is right.

 

[The Ham]

I thought it had been intended all along that the new franchise would start in August. The current franchise was due to end in February 2017 and the DfT had the option to extend it for six months. Modern Railways recently had an interview with Christian Roth (MD of SWT) who stated that he intended to be at Waterloo in August unless someone told him otherwise, i.e. he appreciated that August is the time when control of the franchise might change. If my recollection is correct then the change DfT has announced puts back the Award date and shortens the time for mobilisation.

Not a good idea if a new franchisee is taking over. It would be too much to assume from that that Stagecoach is likely to retain it. My guess is that DfT is having to give more consideration to proposals for new rolling stock and the likely cost with the value of the £ having gone down. If bidders are proposing electrification to Salisbury (or beyond) then DfT would be wanting to check Network Rail's estimates about 500 times. Could be many reasons why they need to make sure this is right.

I doubt bidders are proposing electrification, however it could be that if new units to replace the DMU's are being not proposed that there is some push back by the DfT to see what the extra costs would be for the franchise to do so and the timeframe in which that could be done. Just as, with the delays in electrification elsewhere, a load of 158's/159's being released before 2020 could be very useful in getting several other franchises out of a hole.

Given that there are a significant number of other franchises that have 158's it would mean that they could be split between lots of places rather than having to use them to cascade other units. They also are likely to have a relatively short lifespan post 2020, so could be ideal in filling in for overrunning electrification.

Of course it could just be very hard to separate the two in terms of being able to show a clear winner and so want more time to ensure that they have it right.

 

[cjmillsnun]

There's always the question of whether they can be maintained to a higher standard whereby they can be permitted to do 100 mph, without any other substantial alteration. It's a regular topic on here to talk about HSTs out of Paddington doing 128, 130, 135, 136 etc... 159s do 90 mph because that's what is allowed but is there any insurmountable reason why it can't be faster?

I suspect the 158s and 159/1s would require an engine upgrade to the 400hp units that are in the 159/0s. Good luck finding enough. Also, the last time an HST did that sort of thing, the railway was in public ownership. No driver would dare exceed the limit now, especially by the amounts you're quoting. OTMR would catch them out and they would be invited for a chat without tea and biscuits.

Standards have changed since privatisation. An upgrade of maintenance (although with the standard that Salisbury maintains their fleet to, you wonder how much it can be upgraded) on a 25+ year old train won't cut it for a speed increase.

 

[Suraggu]

I doubt bidders are proposing electrification, however it could be that if new units to replace the DMU's are being not proposed that there is some push back by the DfT to see what the extra costs would be for the franchise to do so and the timeframe in which that could be done. Just as, with the delays in electrification elsewhere, a load of 158's/159's being released before 2020 could be very useful in getting several other franchises out of a hole.

Given that there are a significant number of other franchises that have 158's it would mean that they could be split between lots of places rather than having to use them to cascade other units. They also are likely to have a relatively short lifespan post 2020, so could be ideal in filling in for overrunning electrification.

Of course it could just be very hard to separate the two in terms of being able to show a clear winner and so want more time to ensure that they have it right.

What we could see and is more than platform end fantasy is the possibility of a Bi mode unit capable of rapid acceleration both on and off the juice rail which enables other franchises before 2020 such as GWR and ATW to banish the pacer once and for all and enable EMT to supplement the existing fleet.

But April is coming round fast.

 

[Hartington]

I'm surprised nobody has yet suggested either an 800 clone running on DC and diesel or some Stadler bi-mode clones (DC again)!!

 

[Suraggu]

I'm surprised nobody has yet suggested either an 800 clone running on DC and diesel or some Stadler bi-mode clones (DC again)!!

26m length vehicles will cause issues on the routes they would run on.

 

[swt_passenger]

26m length vehicles will cause issues on the routes they would run on.

Not that much of a show stopper though, is it? Yeovil to Exeter ST Davids is being cleared for IEP anyway, and as far as earlier discussions go the biggest issue is terminal platform length rather than gauge as such, as the end taper of individual cars reduces their overswing.

 

[Chris125]

I'm surprised nobody has yet suggested either an 800 clone running on DC and diesel or some Stadler bi-mode clones (DC again)!!

It has, if not here then on other forums and IMO some form of 3rd rail bi-mode is more than likely.

 

[The Ham]

But April is coming round fast.

Do we know roughly when in April the announcement will be made?

 

[Mordac]

Do we know roughly when in April the announcement will be made?

On April 1st it will be announced the new franchisee will be replacing all the DMUs with Northern's cast-off Pacers.

 

[The Ham]

On April 1st it will be announced the new franchisee will be replacing all the DMUs with Northern's cast-off Pacers.

I look forward to it!!!