VTWC Coach K single seats

[Bletchleyite]

Thats what GWR have done in their HST's. The only down side is that every second seat has a restricted view out the window.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OhoyMu4M2ck/VT6tggnd7rI/AAAAAAAAALM/c-hxJzKagUE/s1600/IMG_6428.JPG

I wouldn't call that a restricted view?

 

[MrCub]

It would be interesting to see if first class passengers tend to be travelling alone, or with one other, rather than as a four. I suspect most are on their own.

 

[All Line Rover]

Far more single and twin travellers than groups of three or four.

Given how unpopular it is for four strangers to be sitting at a table of four facing each other, I'd prefer some of the tables of four to be converted into two twin airline style seats (single travellers are still sat next to a stranger but don't notice them), rather than many of the useful tables of two converted into two single airline style seats.

 

[signallerscot]

They'd get short shrift if they tried it with me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They'd get short shrift if they tried it with me.

I gave them short shrift (politely)[1] for it yesterday on behalf of someone else, as a result of which the passenger remained in the seat and fell asleep, remaining there for the rest of the journey

[1] All it took was "Is that official company policy, then? As I'm pretty sure it's not", with which he immediately backed down, sensing a formal complaint (which was made anyway, as I'm sick of it so have taken to reporting every single incident of it I witness whether directly involved or not), I suspect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Far more single and twin travellers than groups of three or four.

Given how unpopular it is for four strangers to be sitting at a table of four facing each other, I'd prefer some of the tables of four to be converted into two twin airline style seats (single travellers are still sat next to a stranger but don't notice them), rather than many of the useful tables of two converted into two single airline style seats.

Interestingly, those airline pairs in coach K are, unlike the single airline seats, the least popular. Two people travelling together seem far more likely to choose a table for two.

I agree that the tables of 4 are not favoured generally, though, hence my suggestion that if reserved crew seating is necessary it should be a table for 4.

FWIW, the reason I favour a single seat is that I like privacy and the ability to get up as much as I wish (e.g. to get things out of my bag or use the loo) but also like a window seat. They are perfect for the single traveller, being both window and aisle seats. I am not interested in a double seat at all, and would not choose First Class if that was the only thing available unless I was upgrading because of Standard being full and standing. Indeed, that's why I won't pay for LM so-called 1st, but would if it were changed to 2+1 (and indeed have before on solid 319-worked diagrams as they have a very comfortable InterCity-style 2+1 layout).

One thing they could perhaps look at is a "premium class" coach with even wider 1+1 seating, I suppose, but then I expect I'd be priced out of that.

 

[Mag_seven]

I wouldn't call that a restricted view?

Believe you me it is - if you want to see out properly you end up with a crick in your neck!

 

[ainsworth74]

VTEC (well, GNER/NXEC to be exact) putting a specific crew area in their coach K was a much better solution.

Or to be even more precise East Coast as it was put in during a revamp to the sets when they stopped the restaurant/at seat dining service and introduced the complimentary catering

For my money there can't be an issue with staff sitting down and have a chat or rest before a train is advertised for boarding. The issue comes when staff try and designate seats as 'theirs' for the whole journey by actively trying to move passengers on from those seats. Which I have also experienced when trying to get a seat in Coach K on VTWC.

Personally I've never experienced this issue on VTEC or EC before them but have seen VTEC staff plenty of times sitting down having a breather but they all move once the passengers start boarding. There can't be anything wrong with that in my opinion.

 

[bb21]

There are way too many tables of four on Pendos. What they could do is convert half of the fours to airline-style twin seating, and convert most tables of two to airline-style single seating. Couples can go into the twin seats when tables of two run out and the overwhelming number of single travellers can have plenty of options for single seating.

How often does First get full? If only on a handful on trains a day then a solution similar to VTEC's may be best. Segregate the last three seats in K with a removable partition. On busy trains, these can be removed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
One thing they could perhaps look at is a "premium class" coach with even wider 1+1 seating, I suppose, but then I expect I'd be priced out of that.

That exists on Heathrow Express but I think it's fairly ridiculous.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Believe you me it is - if you want to see out properly you end up with a crick in your neck!

While I do prefer the window to stretch out in front of me to the next seat, I sat in a Pendolino seat like that yesterday and it was decent enough. Each to their own I suppose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are way too many tables of four on Pendos. What they could do is convert half of the fours to airline-style twin seating, and convert most tables of two to airline-style single seating. Couples can go into the twin seats when tables of two run out and the overwhelming number of single travellers can have plenty of options for single seating.

Yes, given that most people are travelling on their own in 1st, certainly on business trains, this (as GWR actually did) seems a good course of action.

How often does First get full? If only on a handful on trains a day then a solution similar to VTEC's may be best. Segregate the last three seats in K with a removable partition. On busy trains, these can be removed.

Provided they also do what you suggest above and create more single seats, I think that's a good idea. I only go for coach K because of the 4 single seats. Were there plenty of these in other coaches I wouldn't really care about it.

Could they switch K around so the two tables are at the cab end? I know K is like it is because mostly backward-facing seats are mandatory in the end coach, but I do know Class 180s have it the other way round, with the tables by the cab.

But then again, the airline pairs are unpopular, so formal, official reservation (on the displays) of two of those would be unlikely to irritate many. They can display RESERVED CYCLIST on two rows of Standard at the far end, so they could probably easily put RESERVED CREW on those four seats at that end.

 

[Mag_seven]

It looks as though whoever designed the Pendo, did not take into account sufficient accommodation requirements for catering staff. That does not excuse them occupying seats that are intended for passengers though.

 

[dk1]

It looks as though whoever designed the Pendo, did not take into account sufficient accommodation requirements for catering staff. That does not excuse them occupying seats that are intended for passengers though.

I don't think they do if it's a busy train but if it's not what's the problem? They need somewhere to crash out & where better than next to their work station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think they do if it's a busy train but if it's not what's the problem? The need somewhere to crash out & where better than next to their work station?

The problem (to me the only real problem) is that they select the single seats which passengers like to sit in and there are only 4 such seats per train.

They should select less popular seats, such as the two rows of 2 airline seats which are also next to their work station and are not popular with passengers.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes, given that most people are travelling on their own in 1st, certainly on business trains, this (as GWR actually did) seems a good course of action.

I don't like the GWR layout because, when travelling with a companion, unless there are two single seats available we'll almost certainly end up sitting at a table of four and sharing it with strangers. I can't stand that. I'd rather sit in standard class.

 

[All Line Rover]

Interestingly, those airline pairs in coach K are, unlike the single airline seats, the least popular. Two people travelling together seem far more likely to choose a table for two.

On the other hand, they seem popular on the Voyagers, which presumably you must be able to confirm (or deny) from journeys between EUS and MKC?

Tables of two are widespread on Pendolinos and more often than not two people can share sole occupation of a table of four, so I'm not surprised that the twin airline seats next to the noisy kitchen are unpopular. The Voyagers are different, with two tables of four and three tables of two (all likely to be occupied by at least one person), four twin airline seats and four single airline seats.

I generally prefer a table for two if I intend to talk/work with my companion. When wanting to relax (or when travelling with a particularly tall person!), I prefer the twin airline seats (they still come with a generously sized table). No distractions and no difficulties with leg room. The only downside is one power socket for the two seats instead of two pocket sockets (given that, on Pendolinos (and Voyagers), power sockets are not provided for first class aisle seats).

 

[markydh]

This is interesting and there's a lot of self-conjecture going on here. I nearly always travel alone and if I can get away with it, I try and get a table for four to myself! I would never choose airline and definitely not a single airline seat as they feel claustrophobic. As there aren't many of them, of course they may seem popular! But please don't assume what you want is what everyone else does. Equally, why should a couple be forced to sit in an airline style seat? One of the benefits of first class in a pendo is being able to get a table for two so you both have a window seat.

 

[All Line Rover]

I nearly always travel alone and if I can get away with it, I try and get a table for four to myself! I would never choose airline and definitely not a single airline seat...

If every lone first class passenger were to be guaranteed sole occupation of a table of four or a table of two (and your comments suggest that you never settle for less than sole occupation of a table of two), the very concept of first class accommodation would be undermined. Unless every first class passenger pays at least 3x the cost of a standard class ticket (which they don't), first class provision would cost a train company money (notwithstanding the few passengers who would switch from train to car). In standard class, on busy trains, one can't expect sole occupation of two airline seats, let alone a table of four.

The current layout of first class on Pendolinos encourages tables of four to be occupied by one person (because there are so many of them). Other layouts would ensure that capacity is better utilised and create the "feel" that busy services aren't particularly busy.

 

[All Line Rover]

Which is preferable: occupying one seat in a fully occupied table of four, or occupying one seat in fully occupied twin airline seats with a half-size table? This is a valid question as ideally first class should consistently be at almost full, not 25%, capacity.

I prefer the latter because you aren't facing others, you don't fight for legroom, there are fewer distractions and, unlike in standard class, the seats are sufficiently wide that you don't notice the adjacent passenger (unless they are a heavy smoker, wear awful perfume, etc).

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is interesting and there's a lot of self-conjecture going on here. I nearly always travel alone and if I can get away with it, I try and get a table for four to myself!

That would be an ideal, but the risk of a group of 2 or 3 joining me at it is too high in 1st. To me the guarantee of a single seat is a good reason to upgrade.

 

[gray1404]

This thread stirs a memory....in 2009 or thereabouts I booked an advance first class single from Euston to Manchester on a train leaving at about 21.30. My seat turned out to be a single in coach K, and from memory it was close to the kitchen section. A member of staff suggested I might like to move forward and take one of a group of four seats on the other side of the coach, which would give me a lot more space, he said, and it was unlikely that anyone else would be booked to sit there. He was totally polite about it. But could it have been a dastardly trick to free up that part of the coach for the crew? I very vaguely recall that they did sit in that area for part of the journey. As the ticket had only cost me £16.50 I really didn't mind.

I have had a very similar experience. It being suggested to me that I might like to take a big table to myself further down the train. The lady did also comment that I looked like I didn't have much space - I was booked on one of the airline type seats and she was correct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have had a very similar experience. It being suggested to me that I might like to take a big table to myself further down the train. The lady did also comment that I looked like I didn't have much space - I was booked on one of the airline type seats and she was correct.

That does seem to be the way they mostly do it. They only get more forceful with other made-up excuses if you say "no, I prefer this seat".

I suspect this approach keeps complaints to a relative minimum and allows the practice to continue.

Unusual for anyone to be booked into coach K unless the train is very busy (in which case odds-on there won't be a table for two spare elsewhere, and sitting opposite someone is inferior in my book to a single airline seat).

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the other hand, they seem popular on the Voyagers, which presumably you must be able to confirm (or deny) from journeys between EUS and MKC?

As a Bletchleyite I rarely do MKC<->EUS these days, so I can't really comment, and I very rarely do longer distance in 1st on Voyagers, it's near enough always Pendolinos. But your reasoning is sound.

 

[jon0844]

I once was asked to move from the single seat next to the kitchen door in K on the excuse that it was prohibited due to hot water having to be carried past!

Five minutes later one of the catering staff was sitting in it!

Should have gone back and told them hysterically to vacate because of the danger to life!

 

[Pumbaa]

On the other hand, they seem popular on the Voyagers, which presumably you must be able to confirm (or deny) from journeys between EUS and MKC?

Tables of two are widespread on Pendolinos and more often than not two people can share sole occupation of a table of four, so I'm not surprised that the twin airline seats next to the noisy kitchen are unpopular. The Voyagers are different, with two tables of four and three tables of two (all likely to be occupied by at least one person), four twin airline seats and four single airline seats.

I generally prefer a table for two if I intend to talk/work with my companion. When wanting to relax (or when travelling with a particularly tall person!), I prefer the twin airline seats (they still come with a generously sized table). No distractions and no difficulties with leg room. The only downside is one power socket for the two seats instead of two pocket sockets (given that, on Pendolinos (and Voyagers), power sockets are not provided for first class aisle seats).

They are popular on Voyagers, but I find that's often because the single seats are reserved for lone travellers, and the tables of 2 reserved for pairs. Ergo the seats most likely to be available are twin seats.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On the other hand, they seem popular on the Voyagers, which presumably you must be able to confirm (or deny) from journeys between EUS and MKC?

I don't think popular is quite the right word, more that the capacity is so limited in 1st class on the Voyagers that they are the best of a bad bunch. The individual airline seats are always reserved. Airline seats are better because you don't have to play footsie but people will only sit next to you in an airline seat when there really is nowhere else.

For me, the biggest benefit of 1st class when travelling alone is not having to disturb anyone else if I want to get out of my seat and walk around, nor not getting disturbed by anyone else. I like a window seat and the flexibility to move around, and that's why 2+1 is so good. And if I'm travelling completely alone I'd rather not have to play footsie/share laptop space with someone else, even if the airline seat tables are smaller.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. It is 2+1, or more specifically the 1 side, that sells 1st to me, as someone who likes a window seat without having to ask someone to move to let me out if I wish to get out.

When I sit down in a single airline seat, I know nobody is going to in any way disturb or inhibit my journey (unless they play music loudly or something, which is much less common in 1st than Standard). It is that holy grail of a public transport seat that comes very close indeed to offering the level of comfort and privacy offered by lone travel in a modern premium car. For a lone traveller, it is a massive reason to pay the often substantial extra sum for 1st. If I could reserve one, I would be even more likely to go 1st on VTWC even sometimes for a substantial sum. (I doubt I'd be paying First Anytimes very often, but certainly higher priced Advances).

And that is why I have an issue with staff monopolising those seats in breach of Company policy when they could and should select other, less popular seats.

 

[jon0844]

If only our trains were wide enough, you might be able to try 1+1+1 seating then!

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only our trains were wide enough, you might be able to try 1+1+1 seating then!

I was actually wondering in the back of my mind if, if you used slightly narrower seats and 3+2-width aisles, a 1+1+1 layout First Class coach would be viable. I sort of concluded not, but maybe it would be.