Speculating to the future: What next for the West Highland Line (WHL)?

[Clansman]

Felt I had to create this thread as I've noticed a lot of comments regarding the 156s on the WHL, and around the wider network on long routes such as the Glasgow & South Western Railway (GSWR) - in the context of debating their suitability.

Despite the fact the 156s are being refurbished completely, it's not hard to see that from a perspective of those who regularly travel on them long distance, they're simply inadequate - as many have already mentioned. These opinions have only grown since it emerged that 158s planned use on the WHL is in severe doubt.

It seemed as if my suggestion for the possible utilisation of the HT 170 buffets went down well with the WHL commuters on here, so it's pretty clear there's room for improvement on longer distance 156 routes such as the WHL and GSWR in that respect.

So ultimately the main question is, when the 156s are in need of replacing (or just in the general meantime), what kind of train would be required to best suit the needs passenger and operational wise once that time comes?

 

[Mordac]

Class 230s

 

[Carntyne]

158s still heading for the WHL.

 

[bramling]

Felt I had to create this thread as I've noticed a lot of comments regarding the 156s on the WHL, and around the wider network on long routes such as the GSWR - in the context of debating their suitability.

Despite the fact the 156s are being refurbished completely, it's not hard to see that from a perspective of those who regularly travel on them long distance, they're simply inadequate - as many have already mentioned. These opinions have only grown since it emerged that 158s will no longer be working on the WHL as it stands.

It seemed as if my suggestion for the possible utilisation of the HT 170 buffets went down well with the WHL commuters on here, so it's pretty clear there's room for improvement on longer distrance 156 routes such as the WHL and GSWR in that respect.

So ultimately the main question is, when the 156s are in need of replacing (or just in the general meantime), what kind of train would be required to best suit the needs passenger and operational wise once that time comes?

What is so wrong with them?

They were built with this sort of work in mind, and apart from poor legroom (also an issue on 158s) I find them fine. A lot is relative of course - on a route like Nunthorpe to Hexham or the Cumbrian coast people are very glad to see a 156 turn up, especially compared to a Merseyrail interior Pacer.

 

[Clive50]

A timely reminder of how unpopular these units have been over the years on the WHL. They were always too noisy (for long distance routes), too cramped, were basic to the point of being merely functional and quite frankly why anyone ever wanted to travel in them is a puzzle to me. If BR management ever devised a "train" - if that's what you could call them - to deter passengers from travelling/using the WHL the 156/158's fitted the bill perfectly.

The Class 37's with Mark II's were probably the zenith of the WHL, however there is a new opportunity to improve the experience for passengers. I would argue for the refurbishment of cascaded HST 125 units, with one power car, four carriages and a push/pull arrangement on the rear carriage. This configuration literally saved Scotrail back in the late 1970's when 47/7's and MKIII'S replaced the 27's push/pull arrangements. (Incidentally I remember these thrashing out of Queen Street and sometimes it was an odd loco combo - 27/37 or 25/37).

If Scotrail wanted to retain the existing Oban+Ft Bill combo - then you could arrange to have an 8 carriage set, splitting in the middle at Crianlarich, with the leading carriage for Ft Bill being the driver trailer.

Whatever the outcome the existing units are well past their life expires status and I for one would never travel on the WHL until they are replaced with something much better!

 

[route:oxford]

So ultimately the main question is, when the 156s are in need of replacing (or just in the general meantime), what kind of train would be required to best suit the needs passenger and operational wise once that time comes?

I like the 156s, they are probably the greatest BR DMU. They are getting on for 28-30 years old now though - not far off the age of the once ubiquitous class 101s that they originally replaced in Scotland.

Realistically, the best option is probably a follow-on order for class 195s. Perhaps in the following variant:-

195/3 - 3 car unit - end doors and corridor connection
195/4 - 4 car unit - end doors, first class section, shop and corridor connection.

/3 - DMSLO-MSLO-DMSO
/4 - DMFLO-MSSO-MSLO-DMSO

So on a normal summer day, the unit would leave Glasgow Queen Street in the following formation:-

DMFLO-MSSO-MSLO-DMSO - DMSLO-MSLO-DMSO

At Crianlarich, the four car set would proceed to Fort William/Mallaig and the three car set for the shorter journey to Oban.

Off-season, the unit should be readily re-configured with the MSLO and/or MSSO (shop) removed and stored if required without any digital tantrums.

 

[43096]

I like the 156s, they are probably the greatest BR DMU. They are getting on for 28-30 years old now though - not far off the age of the once ubiquitous class 101s that they originally replaced in Scotland.

Realistically, the best option is probably a follow-on order for class 195s. Perhaps in the following variant:-

195/3 - 3 car unit - end doors and corridor connection
195/4 - 4 car unit - end doors, first class section, shop and corridor connection.

/3 - DMSLO-MSLO-DMSO
/4 - DMFLO-MSSO-MSLO-DMSO

So on a normal summer day, the unit would leave Glasgow Queen Street in the following formation:-

DMFLO-MSSO-MSLO-DMSO - DMSLO-MSLO-DMSO

At Crianlarich, the four car set would proceed to Fort William/Mallaig and the three car set for the shorter journey to Oban.

Off-season, the unit should be readily re-configured with the MSLO and/or MSSO (shop) removed and stored if required without any digital tantrums.

Deary me. Some people need to get with reality.

A 7-car unit of brand new vehicles on the West Highland, with first class and buffet (none of this "shop" nonsense - or is it selling bread and milk too?). And apparently two vehicles - brand new, don't forget - will be stored out of season.

Do you have any idea of the cost of that lot, and the revenue that is generated from lines like the West Highland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do you have any idea of the cost of that lot, and the revenue that is generated from lines like the West Highland?

My personal belief is that an awful lot more could be generated if they were to just look at how the Swiss etc market (and resource, in a rolling stock sense) scenic lines. The Conwy Valley is a similar missed opportunity. I think even a restaurant car could make money in the height of the tourist season if you fill it with tourists. Why *not* have something like the Glacier Express?

 

[HSTEd]

Because while the West Highlands might be pretty.... it isn't the Bernina.

WIth a tonne more snow maybe you could get somewhere.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Because while the West Highlands might be pretty.... it isn't the Bernina.

It isn't, but there are a *lot* of coach tourists in the area who often do train journeys as well as part of their trip.

 

[43096]

My personal belief is that an awful lot more could be generated if they were to just look at how the Swiss etc market (and resource, in a rolling stock sense) scenic lines. The Conwy Valley is a similar missed opportunity. I think even a restaurant car could make money in the height of the tourist season if you fill it with tourists. Why *not* have something like the Glacier Express?

But how much subsidy do those Swiss lines get? It's also a model that has been built up over many years with regular interval services (hourly on the Rhatische). Jumping straight to the stock proposed above requires a massive leap of faith, which even the SNP probably see as a step too far.

 

[JonathanH]

My personal belief is that an awful lot more could be generated if they were to just look at how the Swiss etc market (and resource, in a rolling stock sense) scenic lines. The Conwy Valley is a similar missed opportunity. I think even a restaurant car could make money in the height of the tourist season if you fill it with tourists. Why *not* have something like the Glacier Express?

It isn't, but there are a *lot* of coach tourists in the area who often do train journeys as well as part of their trip.

That is why they run the Jacobite at a fare somewhat more than passengers are probably prepared to pay to get from A to B. A well configured unit is the best way of keeping the costs down and, actually, most tourists probably don't care about the traction / stock so long as they can see out the window.

If there was market for a similar service to the Jacobite between Fort William and Crianlarich surely it would be in operation by now. The resource is basically there.

Mallaig is a reasonable day trip between a coach ride via Glencoe and another along Loch Ness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is why they run the Jacobite at a fare somewhat more than passengers are probably prepared to pay to get from A to B. A well configured unit is the best way of keeping the costs down and, actually, most tourists probably don't care about the traction / stock so long as they can see out the window.

I'm not saying a unit *couldn't* be used, but I think a more custom-designed one (is Stadler listening here?) with proper panoramic First Class (again a tourist upsell) and the scope for proper food/drink service would be a real bonus here.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Remember that the old adage of old stock = cheap, new stock = expensive isn't really that true any more. The cost of ordering new trains is so comparatively low right now that it has made sense to replace good fleets of trains with plenty life left with new ones. Unless something drastic happens I don't see that changing much any time soon. Even if the financing were different the fact that new trains are more cheap to run due to technological advances will never go away.

ScotRail's plans are pretty much settled for the next five or so years. When the time comes for change, the 156s and similar BR DMUs will look even less appealing versus new stock. Since almost all DMUs ordered since are not suitable for the WHL operation (suburban doors and/or a lack of end unit gangways) I think it is more likely than not that new stock will be ordered. I don't think it'll be a special order of Swiss-style panorama stock but probably just a good interior configuration of an off-the-shelf product. Adding a combined trolley store and self-service vending machine area isn't going to be a problem. First class isn't worthwhile when there are no business travellers or commuters. With the aspiration for 1tp2h each to Oban and Fort William/Mallaig a standard three car unit that can be doubled at peak tourist times would seem entirely appropriate. With the strong possibility of diesels being banned from Queen Street and other enclosed city centre stations I think bi-mode is also more likely than not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

First class to me *is* worthwhile as if you do it right (panoramic windows etc) you can make a killing off upselling to tourists.

 

[47802]

Remember that the old adage of old stock = cheap, new stock = expensive isn't really that true any more. The cost of ordering new trains is so comparatively low right now that it has made sense to replace good fleets of trains with plenty life left with new ones. Unless something drastic happens I don't see that changing much any time soon. Even if the financing were different the fact that new trains are more cheap to run due to technological advances will never go away.

ScotRail's plans are pretty much settled for the next five or so years. When the time comes for change, the 156s and similar BR DMUs will look even less appealing versus new stock. Since almost all DMUs ordered since are not suitable for the WHL operation (suburban doors and/or a lack of end unit gangways) I think it is more likely than not that new stock will be ordered. I don't think it'll be a special order of Swiss-style panorama stock but probably just a good interior configuration of an off-the-shelf product. Adding a combined trolley store and self-service vending machine area isn't going to be a problem. First class isn't worthwhile when there are no business travellers or commuters. With the aspiration for 1tp2h each to Oban and Fort William/Mallaig a standard three car unit that can be doubled at peak tourist times would seem entirely appropriate. With the strong possibility of diesels being banned from Queen Street and other enclosed city centre stations I think bi-mode is also more likely than not.

Cost of new electric trains may be relatively cheap with manufacturers falling over themselves to supply them I'm not so sure its the case with Diesel Trains.

It would seem to me that 158's will be an improvement and perfectly adequate for the next few years, apart from Tourists just how mush traffic is available to generate especially to Fort William where the journey is extremely slow compared to road.

 

[Altnabreac]

Another vote for Stadler to tender for some bespoke rolling stock.

I'm actually a fan of the 156 but by the end of the franchise they'll be getting on for 40 years old and it would make sense for the next Scotrail Franchise to contain a new DMU requirement for the lines which will be remaining unelectrified post 2040 or so.

I reckon an order for 20 x 3 car DMUs would do the trick.
6 units for Far North and Kyle
6 units for WHL
5 units for Glasgow - Carlisle via Dumfries (hourly service assuming Kilmarnock and Barassie electrified)
1 unit for Girvan - Stranraer (assuming Ayr - Girvan electrified)
2 units spare.

Spec to be similar to Swiss Golden Pass type stock:
2+2 seating but mainly tables with plug sockets and USBs at every seat.
At seat service of snacks and drinks (no buffet but hot water boiler and basic microwave etc for at seat service of some hot food). Menus on tables, order and pay from your mobile device to be delivered to your (numbered) table.
Panoramic high Swiss style windows allowing mountain views.
A scenic journey app for phones / tablets that not only allows you to order food / snacks but also provides commentary in a variety of languages (French/German/Spanish/Mandarin/Russian).
App also lets you stream a live feed from a forward facing camera in the drivers cab so you can get a live view of the journey on your tablet.
3 car DMU allows space for accessible toilet and a decent quantity of bike storage without summer overcrowding.

Stadler could knock that out no problem and a few extra could be ordered down south for the Cambrian / HOW / Cromer etc if anyone was thinking strategically.

 

[380101]

First class to me *is* worthwhile as if you do it right (panoramic windows etc) you can make a killing off upselling to tourists.

To be value for money the fleet must be able to work within the whole Scotrail network. A micro fleet would be prohibitively expensive. The beauty of the 156 fleet is that they can go anywhere on the network - even if they are used on routes that are not ideally suited to like the GSW.

A modern DMU is required for Scotrail to use on routes such as the WHL and GSW. An updated version of the 170 would be perfect for the GSW so journey time improvements could be made. fixed formation 4 car units without gangways would be ideal. GLC to Carlisle is torture in a 156 cab! Small windscreen, gangway drafts and an ever increasing amount of in cab technology makes for a very unpleasant driving environment. Wide, unobstructed views to the front are needed to make a pleasant driving environment.

 

[380101]

Another vote for Stadler to tender for some bespoke rolling stock.

I'm actually a fan of the 156 but by the end of the franchise they'll be getting on for 40 years old and it would make sense for the next Scotrail Franchise to contain a new DMU requirement for the lines which will be remaining unelectrified post 2040 or so.

I reckon an order for 20 x 3 car DMUs would do the trick.
6 units for Far North and Kyle
6 units for WHL
5 units for Glasgow - Carlisle via Dumfries (hourly service assuming Kilmarnock and Barassie electrified)
1 unit for Girvan - Stranraer (assuming Ayr - Girvan electrified)
2 units spare.

Spec to be similar to Swiss Golden Pass type stock:
2+2 seating but mainly tables with plug sockets and USBs at every seat.
At seat service of snacks and drinks (no buffet but hot water boiler and basic microwave etc for at seat service of some hot food). Menus on tables, order and pay from your mobile device to be delivered to your (numbered) table.
Panoramic high Swiss style windows allowing mountain views.
A scenic journey app for phones / tablets that not only allows you to order food / snacks but also provides commentary in a variety of languages (French/German/Spanish/Mandarin/Russian).
App also lets you stream a live feed from a forward facing camera in the drivers cab so you can get a live view of the journey on your tablet.
3 car DMU allows space for accessible toilet and a decent quantity of bike storage without summer overcrowding.

Stadler could knock that out no problem and a few extra could be ordered down south for the Cambrian / HOW / Cromer etc if anyone was thinking strategically.

All sounds good. But I highly doubt passengers would want a live streamed feed of pheasants, birds and other small animals being blootered by the train they're on. This is a daily occurrence on rural lines. Bad enough seeing it from the driving seat! Worst case scenario you'll get to witness someone ending their life or a level crossing near miss!

 

[Altnabreac]

All sounds good. But I highly doubt passengers would want a live streamed feed of pheasants, birds and other small animals being blootered by the train they're on. This is a daily occurrence on rural lines. Bad enough seeing it from the driving seat! Worst case scenario you'll get to witness someone ending their life or a level crossing near miss!

Evidence suggests it's the sort of thing tourists do want to pay for. Several airlines offer it as an option as well. Given forward facing CCTV is standard now on new stock it wouldn't need any physical investment just an app.

Compared to a few years ago the widespread use of tablets means all these sort of high value products can be delivered on board without the need for physical infrastructure (headphone sockets, screens etc) that were needed a few years ago.

Can automatically blank screen on application of emergency brakes by driver.

If you're offering these sorts of things (commentary, cab views, at seat cups of tea) I don't see the need for 1st class. You are giving the high end tourist experience but also have a unit that works just fine for Dumfries - Carlisle commuting.

 

[Clansman]

A time will come when Scotrail will really have to bite the bullet and replace the sprinters - no doubt by the next franchise at least.

I reckon an newly built DMU with end gangways and based primarily on Iarnród Éireann's Class 22000 could serve as a replacement for the entire 156 and 158 fleets on the WHL, FNL and GSWR - Maybe throw in the HML locals into the mix to replace the Sprinters entirely.

Reason being is that it balances up comfort (provides a decent differentiation for commuters and tourists alike) with capacity and general operational efficiency, whilst providing an enhanced service for passengers on all routes operated on. It also doesn't confine certain sub-classes to the one route, unlike what Swiss style tourist coaches do. It allows the 156s to work local routes (until electrified) or go off lease and displaces 158s on the Far North line to enhance capacity elsewhere before succumbing to age and progress of electrification.

In my opinion, an order of such a variant of these units should be (assuming electrification reaches Maryhill, East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock):

~10 x 4-car Class [y]/0:
Glasgow to Fort William/Mallaig/Carlisle/Newcastle

Capacity: ~240 (21 First Class, 219 Standard Class)
Shop counter and trolley station (Operated by trolley person after passing through the train initially - doesn't require additional staff)
Single Leaf sliding doors
6 bike spaces
1:2 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
3 toilets (1 wheelchair accessible)

~20 x 3-car Class [y]/1:
Glasgow to Oban/Stranraer/Dumfries
Inverness to Kyle/Wick/Thurso

Capacity: ~180 (All Standard Class)
Trolley station
Single Leaf sliding doors
4 bike spaces
1:2 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
2 toilets (1 wheelchair accessible)

~20 x 2-car Class [y]/2:
Glasgow to Oban/Stranraer/Dumfries
Inverness to Kyle/Wick/Thurso

Capacity: ~150 (All Standard Class)
Trolley station
Single Leaf sliding doors
2 bike spaces
1:4 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
1 toilet (wheelchair accessible)

Aside from the possibly dodgy quantities; for me, the main principle is realistic in my opinion and very reasonable on a number of levels which would see long lasting benefits for at least the next 30 odd years. Crucify away never the less.

Also thought I'd have a go at seeing how an end gangway 22000 would look, 380101 isn't going to be happy with this

 

[380101]

Evidence suggests it's the sort of thing tourists do want to pay for. Several airlines offer it as an option as well. Given forward facing CCTV is standard now on new stock it wouldn't need any physical investment just an app.

Compared to a few years ago the widespread use of tablets means all these sort of high value products can be delivered on board without the need for physical infrastructure (headphone sockets, screens etc) that were needed a few years ago.

Can automatically blank screen on application of emergency brakes by driver.

If you're offering these sorts of things (commentary, cab views, at seat cups of tea) I don't see the need for 1st class. You are giving the high end tourist experience but also have a unit that works just fine for Dumfries - Carlisle commuting.

The problem is we don't bang it into emergency for every bird or deer we hit so you'd see it in all its glory! I'd also predict ASLEF would rightly disagree with a live feed being made available to passengers.

Infrastructure wise on-board it would be very easy to do but I doubt it's something Scotrail will offer anytime soon.

 

[380101]

A time will come when Scotrail will really have to bite the bullet and replace the sprinters - no doubt by the next franchise at least.

I reckon an end gangway and modified variant of Iarnród Éireann's Class 22000 could serve as a replacement for the entire 156 and 158 fleets on both Highland lines and Glasgow South Western to Stranraer, Carlisle and Newcastle etc.

Reason being is that it balances up comfort (provides a decent differentiation for commuters and tourists alike) with capacity and general operational efficiency, whilst providing an enhanced service for passengers on all routes operated on. It also doesn't confine certain sub-classes to the one route, unlike what Swiss style tourist coaches do. It allows the 156s to work local routes or go off lease if electrified and displaces 158s on the Far North line to enhance capacity elsewhere before succumbing to age and progress of electrification.

In my opinion, an order of such a variant of these units should be (assuming electrification reaches Maryhill, East Kilbride, Barrhead and Kilmarnock):

~10 x 4-car Class [y]/0:
Glasgow to Fort William/Mallaig/Carlisle/Newcastle

Capacity: ~240 (21 First Class, 219 Standard Class)
Shop counter and trolley station (Operated by trolley person after passing through the train initially - doesn't require additional staff)
Single Leaf sliding doors
6 bike spaces
1:2 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
3 toilets (1 wheelchair accessible)

~15 x 3-car Class [y]/1:
Glasgow to Oban/Stranraer/Dumfries
Inverness to Kyle/Wick/Thurso

Capacity: ~180 (All Standard Class)
Trolley station
Single Leaf sliding doors
4 bike spaces
1:2 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
2 toilets (1 wheelchair accessible)

~20 x 2-car Class [y]/2:
Glasgow to Oban/Stranraer/Dumfries
Inverness to Kyle/Wick/Thurso

Capacity: ~150 (All Standard Class)
Trolley station
Single Leaf sliding doors
2 bike spaces
1:4 ratio of bays to airline rows, all aligned with a window, 2 plugs and USBs per row
2 wheelchair spaces
1 toilet (wheelchair accessible)

Aside from the possibly dodgy quantities; for me, the main principle is realistic in my opinion and very reasonable on a number of levels which would see long lasting benefits for at least the next 30 odd years. Crucify away never the less.

Also thought I'd have a go at seeing how an end gangway 22000 would look, 380101 isn't going to be happy with this

Units of that type would be welcome on diesel routes. My main argument against gangway is lack of vision and on longer routes such as the GSW driver fatigue can set in - big wide windscreen and plenty of room off set that and make for a more pleasant drive which ultimately benefits the passengers. Could you imagine an HST with a gangway? No, neither can I. I'd have all urban EMUs as fixed formation 6 cars as they increasingly stay as a 6 theses days and fixed formation 4 car DMUs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be value for money the fleet must be able to work within the whole Scotrail network.

Why? There is no prospect for electrification, so why would the fleet not remain on the WCML for their entire working life?

A micro fleet would be prohibitively expensive.

Could be. But Stadler's bread and butter is custom jobs - they are uniquely set up to deliver these, being the main supplier to the Swiss narrow gauge lines, who want a couple of GTWs here and a FLIRT or two there.

And the German "franchising" model, considered better value than DB running everything, pretty much runs on microfleets in places.

The problem is we don't bang it into emergency for every bird or deer we hit so you'd see it in all its glory! I'd also predict ASLEF would rightly disagree with a live feed being made available to passengers

They don't like the driver being watched, but I can see no valid grounds to object to a forward-facing camera that does not include any view of the driver himself.

If you're offering these sorts of things (commentary, cab views, at seat cups of tea) I don't see the need for 1st class. You are giving the high end tourist experience but also have a unit that works just fine for Dumfries - Carlisle commuting.

1st on tourist routes is money for old rope, which would be perfect on a highly subsidised route for improving the economics. You don't have to make Standard rubbish (I dislike that approach anyway), you just have to add some selling points like a panoramic view.

The mind boggles, for example, as to why Inverness 158s have been running with 1st (even though it barely differs from Standard) declassified on the Far North, for instance. The trains aren't overcrowded so there are plenty of other places to sit - far from it - and if one tourist coughs up that's a nice little earner. Just create the fares and they will come. No disadvantage at all on that kind of route.

 

[Kite159]

The mind boggles, for example, as to why Inverness 158s have been running with 1st (even though it barely differs from Standard) declassified on the Far North, for instance. The trains aren't overcrowded so there are plenty of other places to sit - far from it - and if one tourist coughs up that's a nice little earner. Just create the fares and they will come. No disadvantage at all on that kind of route.

I trust you have never been on a Kyle train where two large groups have pre-booked pretty much all the seats meaning the train departed Inverness F&S?

Something which is common for coach touring parties, they do a one-way trip on the line (similar to the WHL) with the coach meeting them at the other end to explore and return to base via the quicker coach

I bet you are very disappointed that on the refurbished 158s, Scot-rail decided to get rid of that little 1st class area to make the units standard class only

 

[Bletchleyite]

I trust you have never been on a Kyle train where two large groups have pre-booked pretty much all the seats meaning the train departed Inverness F&S?

I haven't, no - but panoramic First Class would be easily marketed to such groups, so really it backs up my point.

I bet you are very disappointed that on the refurbished 158s, Scot-rail decided to get rid of that little 1st class area to make the units standard class only

I'm not *disappointed* in that sense as I wouldn't be paying for it myself, most likely (though I wouldn't rule it out, I do sometimes travel 1st). But I do think there is a huge missed opportunity in the UK by not looking at the Swiss way of doing scenic lines.

 

[59CosG95]

Also thought I'd have a go at seeing how an end gangway 22000 would look, 380101 isn't going to be happy with this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juFZh92MUOY I'll just leave this here.

 

[Clansman]

Units of that type would be welcome on diesel routes. My main argument against gangway is lack of vision and on longer routes such as the GSW driver fatigue can set in - big wide windscreen and plenty of room off set that and make for a more pleasant drive which ultimately benefits the passengers. Could you imagine an HST with a gangway?

Aye but the HSTs will form fixed formation Intercity trains, so there's no need for the gangways. Whereas the trains on the WHL, GSWR and FNL are commuter stock which operate a number of types of routes in Scotland - so the gangways are regularly utilised. Not replacing these trains with more end-gangway stock would already downgrade the offering passengers would get from the onboard crew and possibly passengers also.

The gangways, although unpopular with drivers, allow operational flexibility also. Not having gangways on these routes would mean passengers wouldn't get their tickets checked, catering services wouldn't run through the whole train + lots more etc. In general, you'd then have a train which demands more money from possibly more staff on key routes and an overall downgrade in the passenger service - all for the sake of the driver having a view (which I don't object to).

I'd have all urban EMUs as fixed formation 6 cars as they increasingly stay as a 6 theses days and fixed formation 4 car DMUs.

The thing is, whilst fixed formation sets can be a good thing for some journeys you've then got other journeys where that simply wouldn't work. For example fixed formation sets on Glasgow Suburban and Bathgate services would work perfectly, as most services are doubled up anyway.

As for the likes of the WHL, a fleet of trains fixed to just 4 cars would limit what you can do. For example 5 trains a day couple/uncouple at Crianlarich as a 6 car set, with 2 going to Oban as you know. You couldn't do this with 4-cars because a) the platform isn't long enough b) The train will be dead most of the time to Oban c)FNL wouldn't fill the seats for the majority of the day either

Even on GSWR and FNL there are routes which simply wouldn't fill an entire 4 car train; such as Stranraer/Kyle/Wick. This is why I devised a flexible fleet of DMUs with 2/3/4 coaches, so services can remain the same as they are currently, whilst giving an enhanced services to passengers and easy flexibility for Scotrail both operational and capacity wise on these routes which 1 fixed formation class of trains(and Swiss style scenic coaches) wouldn't allow.

 

[InOban]

Why would it be dead going to Oban? On a year round basis, there are far more passengers to Oban than FW. The 12.11 ex oban has had to be supplemented by a coach on occasions.

 

[class26]

What is so wrong with them?

They were built with this sort of work in mind, and apart from poor legroom (also an issue on 158s) I find them fine. A lot is relative of course - on a route like Nunthorpe to Hexham or the Cumbrian coast people are very glad to see a 156 turn up, especially compared to a Merseyrail interior Pacer.

They are very noisy !!! 4 hours on them with the windows open during the summer is simply too long.