Freedom of North East rover validity

[Tetchytyke]

Quick question, as the industry's websites don't seem to be able to agree on anything and it's been ten years since I've last bothered with this rail rover.

Northern Railway say that it's valid on all services listed on the map, with the exception of Grand Central and First Hull Trains. But NRES don't list East Midlands Trains. Which is more accurate?

 

[Clip]

EMT are also excluded. Or they were

 

[mikeg]

I'd go with northern's version. Quite possibly atoc haven't got it right. In any case where there is ambiguity surely that which favours the consumer should prevail.

 

[BlueFox]

I've used one on EMT before, with no problem.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's valid though.

Northern produce leaflets with maps and validity information, I try to take one with me when I have a rover ticket in case of any dispute. You may have a problem finding a copy of the leaflet though.
The 'old' Northern used to make the PDFs available for download from their website, but they don't seem to do that now.

 

[Tetchytyke]

EMT are also excluded. Or they were

The reason why I'm asking is that Doncaster-Gainsborough (direct) is listed as a valid route on both Northern's and ATOC's maps. One would struggle to do that line without using EMT.

 

[rg177]

I've used one on EMT without any problems, including the service from Sheffield to York that originates at Leicester on Sundays.

Sent from my LG-K350 using Tapatalk

 

[Clip]

The reason why I'm asking is that Doncaster-Gainsborough (direct) is listed as a valid route on both Northern's and ATOC's maps. One would struggle to do that line without using EMT.

Ahh I see though to be honest theyre not really in the north east anyway

 

[bb21]

The reason why I'm asking is that Doncaster-Gainsborough (direct) is listed as a valid route on both Northern's and ATOC's maps. One would struggle to do that line without using EMT.

I think you've just answered your own question there.

 

[Harpers Tate]

In practice, I find EMT crews don't have any problem with this. I have asked NRE, Northern and EMT to investigate and have achieved nothing whatsoever. When I replied to NRE's negative response with a specific question about Gainsborough-Doncaster I got no reply whatsoever.

How can this be rectified? Who needs to be contacted? Or is it best left vague as it is?

My guess would be that this fell through a hole when much of EMT was born of Central and MML (both of who did accept the ticket).

 

[bb21]

I suspect EMT may be the best ones to speak to, as they may have an interest in receiving their fair share of the ticket revenue if they accept it anyway, which I suspect may be the case on the front line regardless.

I think they probably already receive their share, but it is good to check, and it is a good incentive for them to check too.

 

[lejog]

The reason why I'm asking is that Doncaster-Gainsborough (direct) is listed as a valid route on both Northern's and ATOC's maps. One would struggle to do that line without using EMT.

I used a North East Rover on an EMT service on this line with no problem whatsoever.

I wonder if Central Trains was deleted from the documentation when the franchise was abolished and by oversight EMT not added.

 

[ainsworth74]

I used a North East Rover on an EMT service on this line with no problem whatsoever.

Same I've used it without issue on that line.

 

[Polarbear]

In practice, I find EMT crews don't have any problem with this. I have asked NRE, Northern and EMT to investigate and have achieved nothing whatsoever. When I replied to NRE's negative response with a specific question about Gainsborough-Doncaster I got no reply whatsoever.

How can this be rectified? Who needs to be contacted? Or is it best left vague as it is?

My guess would be that this fell through a hole when much of EMT was born of Central and MML (both of who did accept the ticket).

That sounds about right. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, I doubt EMT crews will object to using a NE Rover between Doncaster & Gainsborough on the direct route, and it is shown as a valid route on the map as well.

The regional rovers were of course, a product of the BR Regional Railways era & a lot has changed since then.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suspect EMT may be the best ones to speak to, as they may have an interest in receiving their fair share of the ticket revenue if they accept it anyway, which I suspect may be the case on the front line regardless.

I think they probably already receive their share, but it is good to check, and it is a good incentive for them to check too.

They just simply replied with an unqualified negative when I EMailed their CS, and didn't reply to my chaser response. It seems there is a need to get past the front line - who probably do little more than look on NRE.

I doubt EMT crews will object to using a NE Rover between Doncaster & Gainsborough on the direct route, and it is shown as a valid route on the map as well.....

Ditto the summer Sheffield - Scarborough (in my experience). Somehow I suspect that it may be incumbent upon them to accept these - let's call them - "legacy" products as part of their franchise, and that would explain the specific exclusion of the Open Access operators.

 

[lejog]

I've used one on EMT before, with no problem.
That doesn't necessarily mean it's valid though.

Northern produce leaflets with maps and validity information, I try to take one with me when I have a rover ticket in case of any dispute. You may have a problem finding a copy of the leaflet though.
The 'old' Northern used to make the PDFs available for download from their website, but they don't seem to do that now.

As others have said, "new" Northern does link to a pdf route map dated September 2016, which says:

Valid on all train operating companies’ services on the maps with the exception of Grand Central and Hull Trains

 

[Harpers Tate]

Yes, and it did with old Northern. NRE tells a different story, one which has and internal conflict between the list of TOCs and the route map (in respect of Gainsborough <> Doncaster).

 

[brompton rail]

I think the point is that Rovers are valid on all franchised TOCs covered by the Rover, but Open Access Operators do not have to accept them.

 

[Tetchytyke]

NRE tells a different story, one which has and internal conflict between the list of TOCs and the route map (in respect of Gainsborough <> Doncaster).

I'm asking because that is clearly nonsensical, which then made me wonder if I'd have issues if I tried to use the late Sheffield-Leeds trains or the Sheffield-York-Scarborough outing.

When I last did this rover ten years ago I also used it on Hull Trains without problem, I can blag, it just struck me as odd and wondered if there was any more insight.

 

[yorkie]

I think the point is that Rovers are valid on all franchised TOCs covered by the Rover, but Open Access Operators do not have to accept them.

If no restriction to this effect is printed on the ticket, then arguably the ticket is contractually valid on them though. They do have to accept inter-available fares.

I've never had any issues on EMT, GC or HT.

This question crops up often but no progress is ever be made in resolving the issue; it's very much a theoretical one though as I've never heard of any issues in practice.

 

[Polarbear]

If no restriction to this effect is printed on the ticket, then arguably the ticket is contractually valid on them though. They do have to accept inter-available fares.

I've never had any issues on EMT, GC or HT.

This question crops up often but no progress is ever be made in resolving the issue; it's very much a theoretical one though as I've never heard of any issues in practice.

Also, there's always the possibility that if the boat is rocked too much regarding Rover tickets, some fare manager(s) may decide it's not worth the hassle and try to get the ticket withdrawn, amended or TOC restricted. It's unlikely, as Rovers are a useful revenue stream for the railway which help to fill off peak seats, but in an age where the bottom line counts more than customer service, nothing would surprise me.

Of course, many of the rovers we have today are a legacy of BR days, and despite the innovation of some TOC's we have seen very few new products offered in the 20 or so years since privatisation. That, to me, speaks volumes about where Rover tickets sit on most fare managers' radar.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If no restriction to this effect is printed on the ticket, then arguably the ticket is contractually valid on them though....

It says, under valid: "As advertised". Does that mean the available material has a contractual effect? If it does, then both the Northern route map for the product and NRE's listing of TOCs are consistent as regards the OA operators. It's only EMT where an irrational conflict arises.

 

[yorkie]

If you are not made aware when you buy the ticket, then there can be no additional operator restrictions

I've never been told of any, and it's always been accepted

 

[fishquinn]

I've used this ticket several times on GC, and have had a problem once, but he just mentioned that it wasn't valid on GC to remember for next time before moving on.

 

[Harpers Tate]

Likewise. I have never been refused, but I do always ask the conductor if I want to use either of the two OAs before boarding. Responses have varied between yes and yes...but (as above). That is all.

 

[rg177]

I've used this ticket several times on GC, and have had a problem once, but he just mentioned that it wasn't valid on GC to remember for next time before moving on.

Think I've had the same bloke.

He told me that I needed an "Any Permitted" North East Rover though which was in all honesty a very random thing to say.

 

[greatkingrat]

Try asking him how much an excess to the "Any Permitted" version would be!

 

[Haywain]

... Rovers are a useful revenue stream for the railway which help to fill off peak seats ...

I think that a this is based on an enthusiasts perception, and not on the reality of the number of Rovers sold and their value to the TOCs. In reality, for many TOCs, the number sold is tiny in comparison to other tickets which will likely have greater revenue benefits as well.

 

[Polarbear]

I think that a this is based on an enthusiasts perception, and not on the reality of the number of Rovers sold and their value to the TOCs. In reality, for many TOCs, the number sold is tiny in comparison to other tickets which will likely have greater revenue benefits as well.

Quite possibly. It does rather reflect the way that Rover tickets have gone in the UK over the last 20 years or so in that they are not heavily promoted any longer (with a few exceptions).

Additionally, there's not been a large amount of innovation as regards this type of ticket over the last 20 year. As I mentioned up thread, most of the existing Rover tickets originated in BR days, when they were probably seen as more of a marketing tool.

 

[sheff1]

It says, under valid: "As advertised".

It doesn't on the one I have in front of me.

As others, I have never had any problem using EMT with these tickets.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I was in the middle of using one when this arose here, and mine certainly did say "As Advertised". Issued at a Northern BO.