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Stadler Flirts - Mods required to operate as a Tram-Train?

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eastdyke

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The Tram-Train project connecting Rotherham to Sheffield is 'long time coming' so no UK experience to fall back on yet.

I was just thinking about what mods you would need to make to a GA Stadler Flirt bi-mode to enable operation as a Tram-Train?

Installing a Tramway within a planned large new development ought to be an option to get Rail connectivity.

For instance, IF (very big word) Wisbech-March was ever to be done AND (another big word) the dreamt about 12,000 new houses got the go-ahead then a tramway service should at least be considered.

Any thoughts about mods required would be welcome. Thanks!

PS but please not about the Wisbech-March re-opening proposal, that is here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=118927
 
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eastdyke

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The Flirt is a regional train - it wont be short of work and would require effort to convert.

Stadler would be happy to sell you a tram-train called the Citylink.

Thanks, I want a Regional Train which can do some duty on a tramway.
I realise such a hybrid would have feature/cost differences.
Any ball park idea of what feature/cost differences please?
 
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MCR247

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Thanks, I want a Regional Train which can do some duty on a tramway.
I realise that works involving both effort and money would be required.

Any ball park idea of what works and what money please?

I would imagine working up from a Tram-train is more feasible than working a train down into a tram.
 

eastdyke

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I would imagine working up from a Tram-train is more feasible than working a train down into a tram.

Thanks, sorry edited my last message before I read this!
The duty that I have in mind would only have a relatively small percentage of route-miles on tramway.
 

MCR247

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Thanks, sorry edited my last message before I read this!
The duty that I have in mind would only have a relatively small percentage of route-miles on tramway.

I don't understand, even if the duty only has a small percentage of miles on a tramway, it is still going to have to be capable of the those few miles is it not? You're essentially asking what would need to be done for a Stadler Flirt to be considered a road vehicle* aren't you?! Quite a lot I would imagine!

*not as in turning it into a car, but trams are classed the same as buses on the the road and have to obey traffic signs and lights AFAIK
 

CosherB

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This has got a whiff of the classic public sector 'one size fits all' disaster project written all over it.

Just stick to what the likes of Stadler offer. They are the experts in manufacturing transport solutions.
 

jopsuk

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the big bit with tram trains over regional trains is that they're designed from the outset to have skirts, almost to ground level, as a safety feature for street running
 

eastdyke

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This has got a whiff of the classic public sector 'one size fits all' disaster project written all over it.

Just stick to what the likes of Stadler offer. They are the experts in manufacturing transport solutions.

Sure, but the Stadlers in Sheffield won't see their 'designed' use on the heavy rail section before mid 2018. And heaven knows what further technical obstacles are yet to surface before then. We would seem to be at least 3 years away from any meaningful 'trial' results.
I have at least now found their costs, just under £5m each for 7 off at circa 2015 prices.

As far as your first comment goes these are fag packet thoughts on how to get new developments of scale better rail connected than might otherwise be the case. No more no less. You may never hear from me again!

the big bit with tram trains over regional trains is that they're designed from the outset to have skirts, almost to ground level, as a safety feature for street running
If you're starting to talk about FLIRTs with skirts then this thread is getting NSFW.

So skirts for Flirts and many of the trappings of road vehicles like a good pair of headlamps etc. LOL
The GA heavy rail order works out at around £1.5m per car at 2016 prices. So I am going to go with £7.5m each for a small order 5-7 sets, 3 car bi-mode with tramway mods and other required safety features.

Thanks!
 

MarkyT

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This is the 'Zwickau model' of operations sometimes referred to as 'train-trams' as opposed to the 'tram-trains' of the Karlsruhr model:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwickau_Model

In Zwickau, a local railway company runs modified small DMUs based on light weight main line practice. They work a series of local local branch line services, in some cases shared with other heavy rail traffic, and then enter city streets to share a right of way with the local tram operator. The city trams are metre gauge so the shared street track is mixed gauge and the DMUs are fitted with tram-like skirts, road light clusters etc as suggested by the OP. They'r not FLIRTs, but another light design of the late 20th century, the Siemens-Duewag RegioSprinter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RegioSprinter

I'm sure if someone wanted such a train, Stadler, the masters of small custom orders, could come up with a suitable design, based on the Flirt or otherwise.

'Downgrading' some UK branch lines to a 'lighter status' could have benefits, allowing parts of such lines to be considered as less segregated tramways in the same way as many minor lines are in mainland Europe. Lighter and thus cheaper extensions and diversions could then become viable, incorporating new level crossings and even some street running to better access new traffic opportunities, while operating with tram-train or train-tram rolling stock could allow the services to share heavy rail trackage elsewhere where that is advantageous, running fast into a major town or interchange for instance, or retaining some parts of the branches served as fully segregated standard railway to accommodate freight of other longer distance passenger operations.
 

Greybeard33

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So skirts for Flirts and many of the trappings of road vehicles like a good pair of headlamps etc. LOL
The GA heavy rail order works out at around £1.5m per car at 2016 prices. So I am going to go with £7.5m each for a small order 5-7 sets, 3 car bi-mode with tramway mods and other required safety features.

Thanks!

As well as details like skirts, headlights, wheel profiles and emergency magnetic track brakes, a GA FLIRT is simply too big to be allowed on the public highway. The maximum width of a tram/tram-train is 2.65m. Tram-trains are typically 37m long, while a double set of Metrolink M5000 trams (the longest formation on British roads) is 56m. A 3-car GA FLIRT will be 2.72m wide and 65m long (source http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3027536#post3027536).

A tram-train is basically a modified tram, with the body shell designed to the smaller tramway loading gauge.
 

61653 HTAFC

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If Stadler were to develop a UK regional unit with tram-train capabilities, the GTW would be a more likely candidate to be a basis for the design than the FLIRT, I'd have thought.
 

themiller

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I believe that different bogies would be needed to reduce the between-centres distance to cope with the tighter radius curves on light rail. This would have the effect of reducing the maximum speed. Body lengths would also need to be reduced to keep the body throw to an acceptable amount on the tight curves.
 

kevjs

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*not as in turning it into a car, but trams are classed the same as buses on the the road and have to obey traffic signs and lights AFAIK
I'm 95% sure that NET have to jump at least one red light - they have there own white dot signals instead. In a lot of places they go one way while road traffic goes another and often need the traffic light phasing to be different (i.e. stopping the opposing traffic from entering the junction).
 

MCR247

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I'm 95% sure that NET have to jump at least one red light - they have there own white dot signals instead. In a lot of places they go one way while road traffic goes another and often need the traffic light phasing to be different (i.e. stopping the opposing traffic from entering the junction).

This is very true. Apologies, I didn't make my point clearly but I mean in terms of they kind of have to act like road vehicles in the sense that they need to have very sharp brakes etc
 

eastdyke

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Thanks all.

Some comments to some of the points raised.
'Downgrading' some UK branch lines to a 'lighter status' could have benefits, allowing parts of such lines to be considered as less segregated tramways in the same way as many minor lines are in mainland Europe. Lighter and thus cheaper extensions and diversions could then become viable, incorporating new level crossings and even some street running to better access new traffic opportunities, while operating with tram-train or train-tram rolling stock could allow the services to share heavy rail trackage elsewhere where that is advantageous, running fast into a major town or interchange for instance, or retaining some parts of the branches served as fully segregated standard railway to accommodate freight of other longer distance passenger operations.
Thats about it.

As well as details like skirts, headlights, wheel profiles and emergency magnetic track brakes, a GA FLIRT is simply too big to be allowed on the public highway. The maximum width of a tram/tram-train is 2.65m. Tram-trains are typically 37m long, while a double set of Metrolink M5000 trams (the longest formation on British roads) is 56m. A 3-car GA FLIRT will be 2.72m wide and 65m long (source http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3027536#post3027536).

A tram-train is basically a modified tram, with the body shell designed to the smaller tramway loading gauge.

Tramways may have a smaller loading gauge, perhaps because running through existing streets will require constraints. I think dimensions will be fundamental and specific to each enabling Transport and Works Order and subsequent design statements to comply with a prescribed DKE (developed kinematic envelope).

ORR 'Guidance on Tramways' Rail Safety Publication 2:
http://www.metroalliance.co.uk/wp-c...ilways-Safety-Publication-Part-2-Nov-2006.pdf
suggests:
The minimum radii for the tramway are largely determined by the type of tram selected, and in particular, by the overhangs and wheel spacing. Therefore, the track alignment, the tram design and the highway constraints form part of an iterative process upon which little specific guidance can be given.
The situations that I envisage (large/very large new developments) would allow for segregated tramways to be integrally designed without the usual radii constraints imposed by existing infrastructure.
The widths of the lanes used by trams are based on a tram having an overall width of 2650 mm. Where narrower trams are used, the recommended lane widths for sole use by trams may be reduced accordingly. Conversely where wider trams are used, the recommended lane widths might be increased accordingly.
The width of a FLIRT should not therefore be a barrier to planning their use on a Tramway. (At a cost of course).
I cannot find similar relating to length. Do you have a reference please?

I understand the need for suitable wheel profiles to best match 'whole system' tracks and for emergency magnetic brakes.

Thank you all again.
 

MarkyT

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If Stadler were to develop a UK regional unit with tram-train capabilities, the GTW would be a more likely candidate to be a basis for the design than the FLIRT, I'd have thought.

The GTW looks quite similar to the Zwickau RegioSprinter.

I believe that different bogies would be needed to reduce the between-centres distance to cope with the tighter radius curves on light rail. This would have the effect of reducing the maximum speed. Body lengths would also need to be reduced to keep the body throw to an acceptable amount on the tight curves.

Depends on what kind of curvature the vehicles must negotiate. In Zwickau, after leaving the city centre terminus the train-trams traverse dead straight street track, shared with the trams, for a distance of approximately 1km before entering a curve of 150m radius for the next 200m. Then the two systems diverge and the small diesel railcars join the conventional network for the journey to the main station and onwards to the local branches served. The minimum radius on the shared street section is in fact a typical minimum heavy rail curve, not the 30m curves present on other parts of the Zwickau city tram network.
 

Greybeard33

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Tramways may have a smaller loading gauge, perhaps because running through existing streets will require constraints. I think dimensions will be fundamental and specific to each enabling Transport and Works Order and subsequent design statements to comply with a prescribed DKE (developed kinematic envelope).

ORR 'Guidance on Tramways' Rail Safety Publication 2:
http://www.metroalliance.co.uk/wp-c...ilways-Safety-Publication-Part-2-Nov-2006.pdf
suggests:

The situations that I envisage (large/very large new developments) would allow for segregated tramways to be integrally designed without the usual radii constraints imposed by existing infrastructure.

The width of a FLIRT should not therefore be a barrier to planning their use on a Tramway. (At a cost of course).
I cannot find similar relating to length. Do you have a reference please?
I believe 37m is a German limit on the length of a tram-train. Since the concept originated in Germany, 37m, 3-section, articulated vehicles, as procured for the Rotherham pilot project, have become a de facto standard. I am not aware of a hard length limit in the UK. It is rather a matter of practicalities, such as the maximum length of platform that can be accommodated on street, the length of time taken to traverse a road junction or pedestrian crossing, and the requirement that, when stopped at traffic signals, the rear end should not foul the preceding crossroads.

Although not in the public domain, TfGM's tram-train studies for Greater Manchester reportedly envisage 5-segment vehicles about 55m long. This is the maximum length compatible with the existing Metrolink infrastructure in the city centre.

I am somewhat puzzled by your mention of "segregated tramways", which is really a contradiction in terms. The defining feature of a tramway is that the vehicles share roadspace with road vehicles and pedestrians on the public highway. A tram network can have segregated sections, such as former railway alignments, but if it is entirely segregated, with public access only at stations and level crossings, it becomes a light railway not a tramway. The vehicles may be tram-like but do not need the various accoutrements and systems of a tram, such as skirts, wheels to fit grooved rail, lighting compliant with the road vehicle regulations, magnetic track brakes and systems to interface with UTC traffic signal controllers. The Tyne and Wear Metro is an example of a segregated light rail system.

The difference between light and heavy rail lies in characteristics such as vehicle size, speed and axle loading, and maximum track curvature and gradient. The FLIRT is a heavy rail vehicle, so could your "segregated tramway integrally designed into a large new development" really be a new conventional railway line and station rather than a tramway?
 

edwin_m

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I believe 37m is a German limit on the length of a tram-train. Since the concept originated in Germany, 37m, 3-section, articulated vehicles, as procured for the Rotherham pilot project, have become a de facto standard. I am not aware of a hard length limit in the UK. It is rather a matter of practicalities, such as the maximum length of platform that can be accommodated on street, the length of time taken to traverse a road junction or pedestrian crossing, and the requirement that, when stopped at traffic signals, the rear end should not foul the preceding crossroads.

Although not in the public domain, TfGM's tram-train studies for Greater Manchester reportedly envisage 5-segment vehicles about 55m long. This is the maximum length compatible with the existing Metrolink infrastructure in the city centre.

I am somewhat puzzled by your mention of "segregated tramways", which is really a contradiction in terms. The defining feature of a tramway is that the vehicles share roadspace with road vehicles and pedestrians on the public highway. A tram network can have segregated sections, such as former railway alignments, but if it is entirely segregated, with public access only at stations and level crossings, it becomes a light railway not a tramway. The vehicles may be tram-like but do not need the various accoutrements and systems of a tram, such as skirts, wheels to fit grooved rail, lighting compliant with the road vehicle regulations, magnetic track brakes and systems to interface with UTC traffic signal controllers. The Tyne and Wear Metro is an example of a segregated light rail system.

The difference between light and heavy rail lies in characteristics such as vehicle size, speed and axle loading, and maximum track curvature and gradient. The FLIRT is a heavy rail vehicle, so could your "segregated tramway integrally designed into a large new development" really be a new conventional railway line and station rather than a tramway?

37m is a minimum length based on the practicality of fitting the relevant equipment for 750V plus either high voltage OLE or diesel (but not both). A tram-train only requiring a 750V supply could be shorter. I'm not aware of any standard defining a maximum tram length.

The term "light rail" causes huge amounts of confusion because different people have different definitions, but by most people's intepretation tramway is a form of light rail that employs driving on line of sight, but need not run in the public highway.

Light rail is an urban rail transportation system that uses electric-powered rail cars along exclusive rights-of-way at ground level, on aerial structures, in tunnels, or occasionally in streets. The operation is under full signal control and the current UK systems have full automatic train protection.

As the name suggests, the term light refers to operations carried out under a less rigorous set of regulations, using lighter equipment at lower speeds than those used by heavy rail, such as services provided by train operating companies.

A tram system, tramway or tram is a railway on which streetcars or trolleys run. It is typically built at street level, sharing roads with traffic, but may include private rights of way especially in newer light rail systems.
http://www.orr.gov.uk/about-orr/who-we-work-with/rail-infrastructure/light-rail-and-tramways

The link above defines DLR and T&W Metro as light rail. They then contradict their own definition by saying Metrolink, NET, Supertram, Midland Metro and Tramlink are both light rail and tramways, where none of these have train full signal control or ATP except a small part of Metrolink. And they seem to have forgotten Blackpool.
 
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JonasB

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There is also the Swiss model of street running with standard trains.

800px-FR_ABe_4-16_3505_Chur_Stadt_250515_R1461.jpg

Photo: NAC/Wikimedia commons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcpPvs83XOM
 

northwichcat

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I was just thinking about what mods you would need to make to a GA Stadler Flirt bi-mode to enable operation as a Tram-Train?

To be pedantic a tram-train is a tram suitable for running on heavy rail infrastructure without losing it's ability to run on the street. If you converted a train model to be able to run on the street it would be a train-tram. Incidentally if you converted a tram to be able to run on heavy rail infrastructure but it lost it's street running ability in the process it would be an overweight or heavy tram not a tram-train.
 

Greybeard33

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37m is a minimum length based on the practicality of fitting the relevant equipment for 750V plus either high voltage OLE or diesel (but not both). A tram-train only requiring a 750V supply could be shorter. I'm not aware of any standard defining a maximum tram length.

The term "light rail" causes huge amounts of confusion because different people have different definitions, but by most people's intepretation tramway is a form of light rail that employs driving on line of sight, but need not run in the public highway.


http://www.orr.gov.uk/about-orr/who-we-work-with/rail-infrastructure/light-rail-and-tramways

The link above defines DLR and T&W Metro as light rail. They then contradict their own definition by saying Metrolink, NET, Supertram, Midland Metro and Tramlink are both light rail and tramways, where none of these have train full signal control or ATP except a small part of Metrolink. And they seem to have forgotten Blackpool.

I was thinking of the more detailed definition of a tramway in the ORR's RSP2 publication (link in Post #19 above):
DEFINITION OF TRAMWAY

16 For the purposes of this guidance, ‘tramway’ means a system of transport used wholly
or mainly for the carriage of passengers, employing parallel rails which provide support
and guidance for vehicles carried on flanged wheels, and in respect of which:

(a) the rails are laid in a place to which the public have access; and
(b) on any part of the system, the permitted speed of operation of the vehicles is
limited to that which enables the driver of any such vehicle to stop it within the
distance he can see to be clear ahead (in this document, referred to as ‘operation
by line-of-sight’ and considered further in paragraph 22 and Chapter 7).

17 For the purposes of this guidance, tramways falling within the definition in paragraph
16 have been divided into three categories: integrated on-street tramways, segregated
on-street tramways, and off-street tramways.

Integrated on-street tramways

18 In this category:

(a) operation is by line-of-sight;
(b) the rails are laid in the highway; and
(c) the part of the highway occupied by the rails is capable of being used by other
vehicles or by pedestrians.

Note: In this category, access to the tramway by others may be restricted, for example to
pedestrians only, buses only or for access only.

Segregated on-street tramways

19 In this category (see also paragraph 89 of Chapter 2):

(a) operation is by line-of-sight;
(b) the rails are laid within the boundaries of a highway; and
(c) the part of the highway occupied by the rails may be crossed by pedestrians, and
by other vehicles at designated crossing points, but is not normally shared with
other road vehicles except vehicles for maintenance purposes.

20 Integrated on-street tramways and segregated on-street tramways are together
referred to as ’on-street tramways’ for the purposes of this guidance.

Off-street tramways

21 In this category:

(a) operation is by either line-of-sight or signalled, or by a combination of the two;
(b) the track is wholly segregated from any highway; and
(c) the alignment is wholly separate from any highway.

OPERATION BY LINE-OF-SIGHT

22 Tramways generally use line-of-sight operation. In this mode, a tram should be able to
stop before a reasonably visible stationary obstruction ahead from the intended speed of
operation, using the service brake. Relevant considerations are set out in paragraph 207.

SCOPE

23 This document provides guidance on the design, construction and operation of onstreet
tramways. For avoidance of doubt, the guidance also extends to tramways in the
following circumstances:

(a) aspects of off-street tramways where sections of track intersect with the highway,
or change to or from on-street tramways; and
(b) off-street tramways, which are governed by the requirements of other parts of the
tramway system that are on-street.

24 An entirely off-street tramway, though falling within the definition of a tramway contained
in this document, may be more appropriately regarded as a railway, in respect of which
the guidance contained in RSPG Part 2 Sections A to E1 is likely to be more relevant.
Although the paragraph 24 admits that the definition of a tramway can theoretically extend to an entirely off-street system, I do not think there are any such systems in Britain?

However, the OP may have in mind a "segregated on-street tramway", rather than an "off-street tramway" as I assumed in my previous post.
 

edwin_m

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I was thinking of the more detailed definition of a tramway in the ORR's RSP2 publication (link in Post #19 above):

Although the paragraph 24 admits that the definition of a tramway can theoretically extend to an entirely off-street system, I do not think there are any such systems in Britain?

However, the OP may have in mind a "segregated on-street tramway", rather than an "off-street tramway" as I assumed in my previous post.

I was thinking of that too, but unable to find it on the rather Byzantine ORR website - thanks for the reminder about the link, and now I think of it I probably downloaded it sometime.

The inclusion of signalled sections in off-street tramways is another example of wooly thinking, probably to accommodate Metrolink. Although when Phase 3 was being implemented there was talk of it legally becoming a tramway when more than 50% of the route was line of sight and which extension would trigger that - not sure what definition they were using there.

There is yet another, and possibly better, definition in the ROGS guidance elsewhere on the ORR website.

http://www.orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/2567/rogs-guidance.pdf

Tramway’ means a system of transport:
• which is used completely or mainly to carry passengers;
• where the maximum speed allows the driver to stop a vehicle in the distance he can see to be clear ahead; and
• which uses parallel rails which:
o support and guide vehicles carried on flanged wheels; and
o are laid completely or partly along a road or in any other place to which the public has access (including a place where the public has access only after making a payment).

Also

'Railway’ does not include tramways

With three different definitions on the website of the official regulator, it's not too surprising most of us are confused.
 

MarkyT

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There is also the Swiss model of street running with standard trains.

That's similar to a narrow gauge version of the Zwickau model. Note the trains are starting to become more like trams now with skirts getting longer etc, but still no proper road brake and turning lights. Switzerland is fairly unique though and a few years before, that train would have been a standard RhB loco and carriages, even perhaps with a goods wagon attached to the back.

It's this sense of light rail coexisting on or near the street that is the idea the original poster is trying to get at I think. Having vehicles legally classified as being part of a tramway system allows them to negotiate streets clearly, but that doesn't mean they have to follow streets shared with traffic for all or even significant parts of their route, it's just a convenience to allow them to get closer to people and facilities where that's advantageous, and at a more affordable cost.

The freedom to cover short critical sections using level crossing, running along or alongside a street, through a pedestrian square or a park etc, can change accessibility of a new route dramatically compared to standards for normal railways, which in UK the ORR demands must be entirely and fully segregated and must incorporate no new level crossings. Such heavy rail infrastructure is very difficult and expensive to build and especially to fit into an existing urban landscape without tunneling or (often) completely unacceptable elevated structures. it's interesting that many closed branch lines have miles of unobstructed rural alignment, and perhaps only a house or two on the tracks in the towns en route, but it is the reinstatement of an old level crossing next to the station site that might become the key issue that could prevent even any thoughts of reinstatement. Clearly a lengthy alternative alignment might be devised to avoid the road crossing at significant cost, but in finding a new route clear of buildings the line might end up avoiding entirely the natural center and focus of the very settlement it was trying to serve in the first place!

Whether train-tram or tram-train rolling stock is used is largely unrelated to the desire to share some space more intimately with road vehicles or pedestrians, although to conform to tramway regs as per Zwickau or Karlsruhr the trains or trams must be compliant with road vehicle standards of terms of lighting, turn and brake signalling and brake performance I assume. Also behaviour in such tramway sections would be speed limited and crossings would normally be locally monitored by the driver etc.

The choice of tram or train derived rolling stock would mainly be down to minimum curve radius required, and wheel profile issues (which depend on curves to an extent but also the permitted depth and width of flangeways on street). As I explained before, Zwickau RegioSprinter vehicles have to negotiate curves no tighter then 150m radius on the shared street running section in that city. I don't know what their wheel profiles are, but I suspect they are heavy rail standard, which means that on the shared section one side of the small flanged city tramcars are running in a common groove that is much larger in both width and depth than required for its own wheelsets. That's OK, as long as the deep wide grooves are acceptable on the street (they are at existing level crossings clearly). It is full size heavy rail flanges that cannot run in normal tram grooves. In Switzerland the narrow gauge of most of their light railways with some street running intrinsically allows tighter curves which they can exploit to squeeze between buildings in urban sections.

There might be some half way house between (lighter) heavy rail trains and a trams where a heavy rail derived vehicle could be adapted to go round slightly tighter curves (say down to 75m, with wheel profile, bogie and suspension arrangements adjusted accordingly) but not so tight a curve as a conventional tram-train could handle. Combined with limited street running / crossing, such vehicle could allow more flexible route design, especially in the (sub)urban areas in question, but with the characteristics remaining rather closer to normal heavy rail standards, it could also (perhaps) proceed at higher speed than a tram-derived tram-train when on the conventional network.
 
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MikePJ

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Another example from elsewhere in the world - the South Shore Line that runs out of Chicago. Full size train, cow-catcher skirt on the front - no side-skirts, no "road vehicle" features. But the Americans have a lax approach to fencing railway lines, so even a conventional rail line can appear to be "street running" as it passes through a town, because the rail corridor isn't fenced.

maxresdefault.jpg


Picture taken from this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9CTL6MfJws
 
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