Northern rolling stock changes post electrification

[northwichcat]

^ Would still only allow 12 units unless they extend the sections by a few metres to 120m which would then allow up to 18 x 150s. A 156 is obviously the same length as a 2 car 158 but there's no 3 car sets.

 

[lejog]

Although its possibly not a coincidence that lengthening of Clitheroe-Blackburn-Manchester and (Blackburn)-Manchester-Southport services to 5*23m is planned. Also a pointer to the routes to which Northern's 3 car 158s are heading, even if they are strengthened by 150s in the peaks.

 

[northwichcat]

Although its possibly not a coincidence that lengthening of Clitheroe-Blackburn-Manchester and (Blackburn)-Manchester-Southport services to 5*23m is planned. Also a pointer to the routes to which Northern's 3 car 158s are heading, even if they are strengthened by 150s in the peaks.

Indeed. With the current 3 car 158 routes getting new 195s in the future and the platform lengthening it does suggest that. Although, in the case of the Southport line with the plan being to use 170s on Southport-Leeds services I wonder if the lengthening is to partly allow 2 car 158s to be tagged on to the 170s for special events like Southport Air Show and Flower show. I say 158s rather than 156s as tagging a 158 on to a 170 probably wouldn't affect the timings but tagging on a 156 might.

 

[Bovverboy]

I thought Longsight was only used by Northern for 323s

Perhaps surprisingly, three (I think) Northern dmu duties start and finish at Longsight, but I don't know if they comprise 2-car or 4-car sets. Available information implies that they all run ECS to Piccadilly (where they presumably collect the Conductor) then do 0438 ECS Chester/0621 New Mills Central/0640 New Mills Central. Sat/Sun duties are different, but I think there are still three diesel duties on both those days.
Additionally, in the early hours of the morning, either one or two Northern dmu sets call at Longsight for fuel en route to Stockport for stabling.

while Stockport was somewhere Northern could stable units not in use, rather than being a depot.

Stockport is certainly a depot in the sense that rolling stock stables there overnight. It's even classed as a 'Carriage Maintenance Depot', although I can't imagine that much maintenance takes place there, other than interior cleaning and daily checks.

I imagine Northern would use Stockport more if it wasn't for the lack of weekday paths.

Assuming you're referring to Stockport CMD rather than the passenger station, as far as I know Stockport currently stables four dmu sets (here again, I don't know if they are 2-car or 4-car), four 323s*, and one 319, which I would think pretty well fills the place.

Stockport CMD (with no fuel available) is of course favourite to lose its diesel duties - nicely displaced by the four 319s which will (probably) be needed for Airport-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston. Longsight I'm less sure about, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does lose its Northern diesels.

CORRECTION: * Five 323s.

 

[50032]

Assuming you're referring to Stockport CMD rather than the passenger station, as far as I know Stockport currently stables four dmu sets (here again, I don't know if they are 2-car or 4-car), four 323s, and one 319, which I would think pretty well fills the place.

Stockport CMD (with no fuel available) is of course favourite to lose its diesel duties - nicely displaced by the four 319s which will (probably) be needed for Airport-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston. Longsight I'm less sure about, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does lose its Northern diesels.

I can't see Stockport losing its DMU allocation, as they work many of the New Mills / Rose Hill services from Piccadilly. The alternative would be more ECS workings from Newton Heath, and that's more time consuming as it involves a reversal at either Stalybridge or Guide Bridge.

A DMU stables at Stockport for the first CLC line service to Liverpool, too.

The roads at Stockport CS will not fit 2 x 319, though I will speculate that there is scope for additional sidings to be laid there.

 

[northwichcat]

Perhaps surprisingly, three (I think) Northern dmu duties start and finish at Longsight, but I don't know if they comprise 2-car or 4-car sets. Available information implies that they all run ECS to Piccadilly (where they presumably collect the Conductor) then do 0438 ECS Chester/0621 New Mills Central/0640 New Mills Central. Sat/Sun duties are different, but I think there are still three diesel duties on both those days.

Additionally, in the early hours of the morning, either one or two Northern dmu sets call at Longsight for fuel en route to Stockport for stabling.

Stockport is certainly a depot in the sense that rolling stock stables there overnight. It's even classed as a 'Carriage Maintenance Depot', although I can't imagine that much maintenance takes place there, other than interior cleaning and daily checks.

What I was meaning is DMUs aren't allocated to Longsight or Stockport - they are all either Newton Heath (142s and 150s) or Allerton (156s.) Does any cleaning take place in 'Carriage Maintenance Depots.' Based on what turns up on the Mid-Cheshire line the units which haven't been to Newton Heath for the night don't look like they've been cleaned prior to being put in service that day.

Assuming you're referring to Stockport CMD rather than the passenger station, as far as I know Stockport currently stables four dmu sets (here again, I don't know if they are 2-car or 4-car), four 323s, and one 319, which I would think pretty well fills the place.

I think you're being a bit pedantic there considering it was you who said in your opinion Longsight and Stockport wouldn't have anything to do with diesels soon and I was directly replying to your post.

Stockport CMD (with no fuel available) is of course favourite to lose its diesel duties - nicely displaced by the four 319s which will (probably) be needed for Airport-Blackpool and Hazel Grove-Preston. Longsight I'm less sure about, but I wouldn't be surprised if it does lose its Northern diesels.

Hazel Grove-Preston? That service is being axed in December when the Blackpool North to Preston line closes for 3 months, followed by only limited services serving Blackpool for a further 3 months. May 2018 sees a replacement Macclesfield to Blackpool service starting which I've been informed will get 323s initially released by putting 319s and 769s on to routes which currently see 323s and will get 331s once the 323s are returned, with Blackpool to Airport also getting 331s.

 

[childwallblues]

What I was meaning is DMUs aren't allocated to Longsight or Stockport - they are all either Newton Heath (142s and 150s) or Allerton (156s.) Does any cleaning take place in 'Carriage Maintenance Depots.' Based on what turns up on the Mid-Cheshire line the units which haven't been to Newton Heath for the night don't look like they've been cleaned prior to being put in service that day.



I think you're being a bit pedantic there considering it was you who said in your opinion Longsight and Stockport wouldn't have anything to do with diesels soon and I was directly replying to your post.



Hazel Grove-Preston? That service is being axed in December when the Blackpool North to Preston line closes for 3 months, followed by only limited services serving Blackpool for a further 3 months. May 2018 sees a replacement Macclesfield to Blackpool service starting which I've been informed will get 323s initially released by putting 319s and 769s on to routes which currently see 323s and will get 331s once the 323s are returned, with Blackpool to Airport also getting 331s.

319s are taking over the 0722 Crewe-Bolton in December 2018.

 

[Bovverboy]

I can't see Stockport losing its DMU allocation, as they work many of the New Mills / Rose Hill services from Piccadilly.

Stockport only provides three sets, which is fewer than half the total. Others are provided by Longsight and Newton Heath.

The alternative would be more ECS workings from Newton Heath, and that's more time consuming as it involves a reversal at either Stalybridge or Guide Bridge.

There seem to be currently three ECS workings Newton Heath to Piccadilly (which is fewer than I expected) although they all provide the stock for at least two subsequent duties. They are all scheduled to reverse at Guide Bridge. The three Stockport workings could be replaced by, at most, two extra ECS workings from Newton Heath.
There are also currently ECS workings between Newton Heath and Stockport/Hazel Grove, despite the proximity of Stockport CMD. So I don't see Stockport's diesel duties as being sacred.

A DMU stables at Stockport for the first CLC line service to Liverpool, too.

Is the 0605 from Stockport scheduled to continue for the foreseeable future? I've always assumed that it currently starts from there simply because it's at least as convenient to supply the stock from there as anywhere else, rather than there being, at such an early hour, a flood of custom from Stockport to CLC line destinations west of Deansgate. The Stockport to Oxford Road/Deansgate section could be covered by a Stockport to Bolton/beyond service, and the current 0605 could start at Oxford Road, as the vast majority of the CLC stoppers are going to continue to do.

The roads at Stockport CS will not fit 2 x 319, though I will speculate that there is scope for additional sidings to be laid there.

Will they fit a 319 plus 323? If a road containing a 319 can, additionally, only accommodate a 2-car dmu, then, yes, that would seem to be a reason to continue basing some diesels at Stockport.

 

[Bovverboy]

What I was meaning is DMUs aren't allocated to Longsight or Stockport - they are all either Newton Heath (142s and 150s) or Allerton (156s.) Does any cleaning take place in 'Carriage Maintenance Depots.' Based on what turns up on the Mid-Cheshire line the units which haven't been to Newton Heath for the night don't look like they've been cleaned prior to being put in service that day.

My response to your question is, I don't really know. I imagine something must happen at a Carriage Maintenance Depot which doesn't happen at a Holding Siding, although I suppose these titles will be handed down through the generations and not always accurately reflect what a base does at a particular point in time.
Are you saying that your trains haven't even been de-littered from the night before? A unit might not get a thorough clean every night.
As far as I'm aware only one Mid-Cheshire set doesn't start at Newton Heath, it starts at Longsight. I don't think Stockport provides any stock for the line.

Hazel Grove-Preston? That service is being axed in December when the Blackpool North to Preston line closes for 3 months, followed by only limited services serving Blackpool for a further 3 months.

I don't see an interruption to services on the Preston to Blackpool section as any reason for serious repercussions between Hazel Grove and Preston. The existing Hazel Grove to Blackpool service may not be going to run in its present form, but as far as I'm aware there are no plans to cut capacity either between Hazel Grove and Manchester or between Manchester and Preston. On the contrary, the plans are to increase it.

May 2018 sees a replacement Macclesfield to Blackpool service starting which I've been informed will get 323s initially released by putting 319s and 769s on to routes which currently see 323s and will get 331s once the 323s are returned, with Blackpool to Airport also getting 331s.

I didn't take into account likely swapabouts of rolling stock, it won't seriously alter quantities.

(Response to middle section of your post to follow).

 

[northwichcat]

I don't see an interruption to services on the Preston to Blackpool section as any reason for serious repercussions between Hazel Grove and Preston. The existing Hazel Grove to Blackpool service may not be going to run in its present form, but as far as I'm aware there are no plans to cut capacity either between Hazel Grove and Manchester or between Manchester and Preston.

I did mean Hazel Grove to Blackpool won't continue from December not Hazel Grove to Preston, although even the latter will be no more in less than 12 months time. Are there plans to rework the Hazel Grove diagrams from December to remove the peak time interworking with Chester and Buxton services? If not they won't all be 319s from December.

As far as I'm aware only one Mid-Cheshire set doesn't start at Newton Heath, it starts at Longsight.

Don't forget one of the Newton Heath sets switches to Hazel Grove services after doing one Mid-Cheshire service and a set which starts the day at Wigan CS switches from Hazel Grove to Chester. The set which starts the day at Wigan CS quite often has some papers and tickets from the previous day still on it.

I didn't take into account likely swapabouts of rolling stock, it won't seriously alter quantities.

But it could see some modern stock being stabled at Stockport, something which hasn't been seen since 175s got stabled there under FNW.

 

[boby32]

319374 in new livery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2S84mH4Nbw

 

[50032]

Stockport only provides three sets, which is fewer than half the total. Others are provided by Longsight and Newton Heath.

Four actually:
x1 for the first CLC service.
x1 goes into Picc then works to Rose Hill.
x2 go to New Mills via the Hazel Grove chord.

So I don't see Stockport's diesel duties as being sacred.

I think some will remain, but we shall see. Alstom are busy making room at Longsight for TPE's new trains, so there's uncertainly over Northern's future at 9A.

Is the 0605 from Stockport scheduled to continue for the foreseeable future?

Starting from Piccadilly according to the May 2018 timetable draft.

 

[Bovverboy]

Originally Posted by 50032
I can't see Stockport losing its DMU allocation, as they work many of the New Mills / Rose Hill services from Piccadilly.

Originally Posted by bovverboy
Stockport only provides three sets, which is fewer than half the total. Others are provided by Longsight and Newton Heath.

Four actually:
x1 for the first CLC service.
x1 goes into Picc then works to Rose Hill.
x2 go to New Mills via the Hazel Grove chord.

As you'll see, I was specifically referring to the number of sets Stockport CMD provides for Rose Hill/New Mills services.

EDIT: The set which runs ECS to Piccadilly (M/F) actually does 0640 Picc-New Mills Central and 0717 return, before going on Picc-Rose Hill (5 trips). Then its another NMC, another RHM, a Marple, and finally a single journey to NMC, running back to base from there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I can't see Stockport losing its DMU allocation, as they work many of the New Mills / Rose Hill services from Piccadilly. The alternative would be more ECS workings from Newton Heath, and that's more time consuming as it involves a reversal at either Stalybridge or Guide Bridge.

From December they can use the Ordsall Chord to run direct from Newton Heath to Piccadilly and beyond.

 

[50032]

From December they can use the Ordsall Chord to run direct from Newton Heath to Piccadilly and beyond.

That is true, but they would still require a reversal somewhere in the Ardwick area before arriving into the main station. So it would be no quicker than the route via Brewery Jn, Ashburys and Guide Bridge (reverse).

Obviously there has to be a certain amount of ECS from Newton Heath - Picc for unit rotation, and route knowledge retention, but I don't foresee any major changes to the stabling arrangements at Stockport CS.

 

[Bovverboy]

That is true, but they would still require a reversal somewhere in the Ardwick area before arriving into the main station. So it would be no quicker than the route via Brewery Jn, Ashburys and Guide Bridge (reverse).

That's right, and what's more, it probably wouldn't be allowed anyway. The only realistic reversing point would be the Mayfield Loop, and, whatever terminal platform the trains were to use, it would, in total, involve a complete traverse of the Picc station throat. It could be said that the reversal could be avoided by starting/finishing in platforms 13/14, but it would still involve a complete traverse of the station throat, and all at one go, to boot. We know that the TPE Scarborough trains do traverse the entire station throat, but I don't think it is something which would be tolerated unnecessarily.
Incidentally, trains can be, and are, reversed at Ashburys. Four NT a day are, which is more than those reversed at Guide Bridge (three) and Stalybridge (two). In addition, three TPE a day are reversed there.

Obviously there has to be a certain amount of ECS from Newton Heath - Picc for unit rotation, and route knowledge retention, but I don't foresee any major changes to the stabling arrangements at Stockport CS.

Units do get rotated, without going directly from Newton Heath to Piccadilly (via Chester, for example).
As to changes to the stabling arrangements at Stockport, time will tell. Clearly, there is going to be a slight increase in stabling of emus in the area, and a slight reduction in that of dmus. Two units off Blackpool-Hazel Grove already run into Stockport CMD, although, as we know, they don't start there in a morning.

 

[Bovverboy]

as far as I know Stockport currently stables four dmu sets (here again, I don't know if they are 2-car or 4-car), four 323s, and one 319, which I would think pretty well fills the place.

It's apparently five 323 which stable overnight at Stockport. I didn't have a record of the duty which starts 0614 ECS to Macclesfield (then does 0715 Macclesfield-Piccadilly). I seem to recall that the above was still a diesel duty not all that long ago. The other totals are believed to be correct.

 

[Bovverboy]

319s are taking over the 0722 Crewe-Bolton in December 2018.

I've said before, 319s could take over the Crewe to Deansgate section, today. Very few passengers travel beyond Deansgate, and there is potentially a good connection for Salford Crescent and Bolton available anyway.
Coming back from Bolton the return working doesn't usually carry anyone, since it is timed only four minutes behind a Blackpool North to Victoria train! A unit would still be needed for 0956 Victoria to Blackburn via Todmorden, but there are plenty of diesels available at that time.

Goodness knows why the 0722 needs to run through to Bolton, either before December 2018 or after.

 

[northwichcat]

I've said before, 319s could take over the Crewe to Deansgate section, today. Very few passengers travel beyond Deansgate, and there is potentially a good connection for Salford Crescent and Bolton available anyway.
Coming back from Bolton the return working doesn't usually carry anyone, since it is timed only four minutes behind a Blackpool North to Victoria train! A unit would still be needed for 0956 Victoria to Blackburn via Todmorden, but there are plenty of diesels available at that time.

Goodness knows why the 0722 needs to run through to Bolton, either before December 2018 or after.

December 08 there weren't enough 323s available to cover that service and an extra Macclesfield to Manchester service in the morning peak. (The latter has since got a 323 as the result of putting a 319 on the Airport shuttle.)

There is a requirement for Northern to provide services from Stockport continuing beyond Piccadilly so the other option would have been to use a 2 car DMU on a Crewe-Piccadilly service not calling at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and for the ex-Chester service to be 4 car, call at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme and run beyond Piccadilly.

 

[janb]

Another piece in the Lancashire Telegraph that was presumably designed to stop talk of LU units

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15438377.Promise_of_newer_trains_for_East_Lancashire_Line/

 

[northwichcat]

Another piece in the Lancashire Telegraph that was presumably designed to stop talk of LU units

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/15438377.Promise_of_newer_trains_for_East_Lancashire_Line/

And yet they still haven't got it right. They are saying 156s currently used on Manchester to Leeds services will be stabled at Blackburn. 156s are the ONLY type of Sprinter Northern have which aren't used on Manchester to Leeds services!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Would this be the appropriate thread to update us with what livery the 319s are currently in? I've seen 374 in full new livery, loads in base livery and some still in "Northern Electrics" livery from the dim and distant days of early 2015!

(I ask this because I see the original name of this thread involved "Class 319"

 

[Bovverboy]

Can anyone say how many Northern crew 'signing-on' points there are in the Manchester area, and how they interwork with each other? Drivers must sign on at Newton Heath, Victoria, Piccadilly, Longsight, and Stockport, since trains are stabled at those places, but what about conductors? From the train duties, I would guess that conductors never go to Newton Heath, since trains starting/finishing there always call at some other potential signing-on point (e.g. Victoria, Piccadilly, Stockport, Huddersfield) before they start public service. So a train operating out of Newton Heath, but carrying fare-paying passengers from, say, New Mills Central, would always call at Piccadilly en route, presumably, to collect the conductor. I would guess that the above applies similarly in respect of trains stabled at Longsight.
Can anyone confirm or deny the above?
Also, would a crew starting or finishing at Stockport always do so, or would they be considered 'Manchester' crews, required to start or finish at any base in the Manchester area?
Are conductors starting/finishing at Victoria or Piccadilly from a common 'pool'? (I know that, in the middle of the day, crew changes also take place at Oxford Road, but I'm not aware of any duties where a train comes from a depot and then collects the conductor at Oxford Road).
If a driver starts at Newton Heath on an early shift, does he also finish there (irrespective of whether or not there is a train needing to be taken there) or does he get off his train at Victoria (or wherever) and go home from there?

 

[Des Iroman]

There's only drivers at Piccadilly and Victoria off that list - it's taxis or pass rides to and from depots/ standing points.

 

[Geeves]

As Des Iron man says all the train crew are based at either Victoria or Piccadilly and all the other places in-between you mention they either go in a taxi (or in the case of Victoria) there are two early morning 'staff trains' that take both drivers and guards to their respective trains. Its a long time since any traincrew were based at Newton Heath. I believe guards had a depot there in the past.

As for who signs what its relatively easy. Vic sign everything to the North of Manchester and one link signs the airport in the South. One link at Vic also signs Picc to Chester via Altrincham and another via Warrington BQ. Guards do not sign either of those at Vic. Guards do sign to Hazel Grove but drivers do not. Picc sign everything in the south (except for the Stockport ghost train). Picc also cover the CLC to Liverpool and I believe their guards also sign to Preston and Wigan Wallgate but their drivers do not. You also have Liverpool, Wigan, Buxton, Blackpool, Leeds, York and soon to be Blackburn train crew depots covering similar routes into Manchester just to add to the fun. All train crew are booked to end their shifts at the same location they started from.

Hope this helps!

 

[Bovverboy]

(Response to previous two posts)

Very enlightening, I have to say, although the information inevitably inspires a few more questions.
An early train runs ECS Newton Heath to Chester via Chat Moss and Warrington Bank Quay. From the above I presume the driver is conveyed by taxi from Piccadilly to N/H (or perhaps by taxi to Victoria, then staff train from there). The conductor is conveyed by taxi from Piccadilly to Victoria and is picked up by the driver there.
If drivers need to go to such as Newton Heath and Longsight, to pick up their trains, but the conductors do not, doesn't this mean that the driver's duty will be longer than that of the conductor? Or are conductor duties completely separate, with a driver having more than one conductor in the course of a shift?
Are all Stockport-starting duties worked by drivers who have been taxied from Piccadilly?

 

[156441]

Piccadilly drivers don’t sign Newton Heath. Only Victoria and Wigan drivers do.
The Early ECS from NH to Chester works as follows.
Victoria Driver goes taxi to N/H for 3 units.
2 x Picc Drivers, 2 x Picc conductors taxi over Picc- Vic
Vic Driver stops at Victoria picks up the other 4 train crew the continues to Chester Via Bank Quay (Note that no Piccadilly staff sign Via Bank Quay).
On arrival at Chester the Piccadilly crews work the first 2 services while the Victoria Driver works the 3rd with a guard who comes over pass on the 0550 Arriva service from Piccadilly.

Guards dockets and Drivers ones are in the main very different. It’s unusual for the same Driver and Guard to work more than one service together in a shift.

Just a couple of corrections to some of the posts above also.
Victoria Drivers do sign Hazel Grove.
2/3 links at Vic sign the Airport.
Piccadilly Guards don’t sign anything ‘North’ of Oxford Road apart from Lime St Via CLC.
Piccadilly Drivers (one link) sign Preston but not Wigan.

 

[8A Rail]

Would this be the appropriate thread to update us with what livery the 319s are currently in? I've seen 374 in full new livery, loads in base livery and some still in "Northern Electrics" livery from the dim and distant days of early 2015!

(I ask this because I see the original name of this thread involved "Class 319"

Besides 319374, the other two in full Northern livery are 319424 and 319431. The latter may be out in the next couple of weeks.

Cant give you run down on the rest of the fleet but would suggest more than half in the off white / light grey livery now.

 

[Class 170101]

I can't see Stockport losing its DMU allocation, as they work many of the New Mills / Rose Hill services from Piccadilly. The alternative would be more ECS workings from Newton Heath, and that's more time consuming as it involves a reversal at either Stalybridge or Guide Bridge.

A DMU stables at Stockport for the first CLC line service to Liverpool, too.

The roads at Stockport CS will not fit 2 x 319, though I will speculate that there is scope for additional sidings to be laid there.

Is a reversal required at either?

How about via Aston Moss, Denton and direct to Stockport?

Like this one
06+34 Newton Heath to Hazel Grove

 

[childwallblues]

I too was wondering why reversals were taking place at Guide Bridge when there is a direct line.