• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

New South Western franchise: Awarded to First/MTR

Status
Not open for further replies.

Harbouring

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
262
Thinking about the Pompey end of the line I'm finding it hard to see where the Weymouth train would go in the current timetable, there is possibility I guess of it leaving the Harbour at xx08 or so, to follow the Waterloo via Basingstoke but that means only running just in front of the Victoria-Southampton train. Any time before The Waterloo via Basingstoke it probably gets slowed down by the Southampton stopper, there is no real point running it after xx:15 either because of the GWR.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Eastwestjct

Member
Joined
17 Dec 2016
Messages
25
Location
Hampshire
Thinking about the Pompey end of the line I'm finding it hard to see where the Weymouth train would go in the current timetable, there is possibility I guess of it leaving the Harbour at xx08 or so, to follow the Waterloo via Basingstoke but that means only running just in front of the Victoria-Southampton train. Any time before The Waterloo via Basingstoke it probably gets slowed down by the Southampton stopper, there is no real point running it after xx:15 either because of the GWR.

Don't think off the Weymouth train being an extra train from Portsmouth it's likely to be the existing Southampton stopping train extended.

The extra train from Portsmouth to Southampton will be a new path.

I have also heard it quoted that some of the Brighton to Southampton services will be diverted to run via Eastleigh to accommodate.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
Don't think off the Weymouth train being an extra train from Portsmouth it's likely to be the existing Southampton stopping train extended.

The extra train from Portsmouth to Southampton will be a new path.

This has been suggested and discussed earlier in the thread and seems reasonable because of the present timings of the stopper's arrival at Southampton, only being a few minutes after the present Poole stopper's departure.

However in pompeyfan's earlier summary, his quote described it as a semi fast. Can a train that is all stations Portsmouth to Southampton, and also Poole to Weymouth, reasonably be described as semifast? Or can 'semifast' just refer to the bit west of Southampton?

But I also think a key point is that everyone's guesses are starting with the default position that other existing through services have to remain in the exact same timings.

Lastly, regarding running regular Brighton services via Eastleigh, don't forget this had been tried before and SN were knocked back in favour of the extra XC service, it went to a dispute resolution panel decision...
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
Don't think off the Weymouth train being an extra train from Portsmouth it's likely to be the existing Southampton stopping train extended.

The extra train from Portsmouth to Southampton will be a new path.

I have also heard it quoted that some of the Brighton to Southampton services will be diverted to run via Eastleigh to accommodate.

If the above is true then it'll be absolutely useless and will be less convenient than the current setup.
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,710
Location
London
I'm not sure if it is in the ITT, but weren't there plans to provide a direct and better service for Southampton airport for passengers east of the swml, which I guess SN could achieve with a reverse at Eastleigh.
 

Swanage98

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2017
Messages
15
Can't imagine passengers will be best pleased between Bournemouth and Southampton Airport in a reduction of 50% in direct off peak service to Southampton Airport to make way for a Portsmouth service. Is there really a demand for such a service anyway?
 
Last edited:

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,726
I've just seen the following on a local Facebook group; might be interesting to some.
There will also be an extra semi-fast Portsmouth to Southampton service which may mean some of the Southern (Brighton line) services running via Eastleigh.

Later final trains from Waterloo but when I asked how they could preserve access to Network Rail for maintenance, it was made clear that these anticipated changes were minor. Finally, they are in discussions with Network Rail over running a service on Boxing Day in future, although they are aware of the impact this would have on major upgrading schemes which take place over the Christmas period.

I'm not surprised that they want to introduce boxing day services. It would only be possible when engineering works are not taking place. I felt for sometime it would be useful. Obviously staff might not want to work it and I can understand that. South West Trina never saw the value in it though.

I wonder how much later the final trains need to be? Would 5 minutes be enough or does it need to be additional services?

A later train to Portsmouth would be useful. I know it's a two track railway but isn't it a two track railway beyond Basingstoke to Bournemoth?

Would GTR be happy for Southern services to switch via Eastleigh? Would it make much difference to their ORCATs allocation?
 
Last edited:

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
There will also be an extra semi-fast Portsmouth to Southampton service which may mean some of the Southern (Brighton line) services running via Eastleigh.

Later final trains from Waterloo but when I asked how they could preserve access to Network Rail for maintenance, it was made clear that these anticipated changes were minor. Finally, they are in discussions with Network Rail over running a service on Boxing Day in future, although they are aware of the impact this would have on major upgrading schemes which take place over the Christmas period.[\QUOTE]

I'm not surprised that they want to introduce boxing day services. It would only be possible when engineering works are not taking place. I felt for sometime it would be useful. Obviously staff might not want to work it and I can understand that. South West Trina never saw the value in it though.

I wonder how much later the final trains need to be? Would 5 minutes be enough or does it need to be additional services?

A later train to Portsmouth would be useful. I know it's a two track railway but isn't it a two track railway beyond Basingstoke to Bournemoth?

Would GTR be happy for Southern services to switch via Eastleigh? Would it make much difference to their ORCATs allocation?

Swanwick provide a fair old flow of passengers, so they may not be over the moon about that.

From reading the internal site, it would appear that SWR want to run a fast Portsmouth service via Guildford, leaving around 00:15-00:20.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
Can't imagine passengers will be best pleased between Bournemouth and Southampton Airport in a reduction of 50% in direct off peak service to Southampton Airport to make way for a Portsmouth service. Is there really a demand for such a service anyway?
Welcome to the forums, I see this is your first question.

There's no 50% reduction. There will still be three fast trains pert hour, one SW from Weymouth and one SW from Poole, and the hourly XC.

To clarify this, it is the slower of the two current Weymouth - Waterloo services that is being cut beyond Poole. The existing Poole - Waterloo stopper that is being diverted after Southampton to Portsmouth, and extended (started back) from Weymouth.

That looks like a 25% reduction from removing the present ex-Poole semifast.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
Would GTR be happy for Southern services to switch via Eastleigh? Would it make much difference to their ORCATs allocation?

As I said earlier, Southern running via Eastleigh was one of their original aims for the west coastway changes about 2009, and yes Swanwick would have been dropped. But that service would have run as an anticlockwise loop, Fareham > Eastleigh > Airport > Southampton > Swanwick > Fareham in most hours, with a shortened layover time at Southampton. Running both ways via Eastleigh was not asked for because it would have needed an extra unit, to cover the extra time needed in both directions.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,383
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
As a slight aside, LBC radio this morning was reporting that Waterloo was experiencing delays owing to a problem with the overhead wires!

Cable issue - though I'm assuming not quite a full-on fire - adjacent to platforms 4 and 5. I arrived into Waterloo just before services were paused earlier.. s/e side of the concourse filling with acrid white smoke.
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
Welcome to the forums, I see this is your first question.

There's no 50% reduction. There will still be three fast trains pert hour, one SW from Weymouth and one SW from Poole, and the hourly XC.

To clarify this, it is the slower of the two current Weymouth - Waterloo services that is being cut beyond Poole. The existing Poole - Waterloo stopper that is being diverted after Southampton to Portsmouth, and extended (started back) from Weymouth.

That looks like a 25% reduction from removing the present ex-Poole semifast.

Personally I hope and pray this new Portsmouth - Weymouth service isn't all shacks Southampton (or even worse, Southsea) to Weymouth. It'll effectively make the service useless and effectively 3 separate services bolted together, rather than a useful semifast through service.
 

Harbouring

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2017
Messages
262
Personally I hope and pray this new Portsmouth - Weymouth service isn't all shacks Southampton (or even worse, Southsea) to Weymouth. It'll effectively make the service useless and effectively 3 separate services bolted together, rather than a useful semifast through service.

That suggestion would mean a probable 40 minute increase between Portsmouth and Bournemouth (probably the most useful/potentially popular through journey) based on current timings compared to changing at Soton. And on a service with currently inferior facilities.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
That suggestion would mean a probable 40 minute increase between Portsmouth and Bournemouth (probably the most useful/potentially popular through journey) based on current timings compared to changing at Soton. And on a service with currently inferior facilities.

There's a lot to find out in future though. If for instance the west of Southampton leg ran as per the current train then it might still have to include that wait at Brockenhurst, in which case it may not get much use as a through train at all...

Working out how to lose that layover at Brockenhurst (that is a relic of the old Wareham shuttle timings) would probably need a thread in itself... :)
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
Personally I hope and pray this new Portsmouth - Weymouth service isn't all shacks Southampton (or even worse, Southsea) to Weymouth. It'll effectively make the service useless and effectively 3 separate services bolted together, rather than a useful semifast through service.

AFAICT from the spreadsheet none of the SW services are all stations between Southampton and Poole. Calling patterns on that stretch look messy - as I suggested earlier some adjacent station pairs might not even have a through journey.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
The changes are defined in a track access application that has just appeared (thanks to a post made in the infrastructure forum):

Main Lines

Additional semi-fast service between Portsmouth Harbour and Southampton Central (1tph)

Current Waterloo to Poole stopping services terminate at Southampton Central but call additionally at St Denys (1tph)

Current Waterloo to Weymouth semi-fast service (the 2nd of the current Waterloo to Weymouth trains) to terminate at Poole (1tph)

Current Portsmouth to Southampton stopping service extends to Weymouth taking over the Southampton to Poole and Poole to Weymouth legs of the previously mentioned two service groups which will in future terminate short (1tph)

The off-peak Waterloo to Haslemere service (1tph) to run through to Portsmouth & Southsea
as per peaks and contra peaks currently

Windsor Lines

Waterloo to Reading, increases to 4tph all day, currently anywhere between 2tph and 4tphdepending on the hour in question. All services will operate via Richmond. These services also replace the Waterloo to Ascot sections of the current direct Waterloo to Farnham via Camberley services.

Waterloo to Windsor, doubles from 2tph to 4tph all day with the additional 2tph operating via Hounslow

Ascot to Guildford via Aldershot becomes two separate services groups but remaining at the current frequency
> Ascot to Aldershot (2tph)
> Guildford to Farnham via Aldershot (2tph)

Waterloo to Weybridge services via Hounslow becomes two separate service groups, remaining at the current frequency
>Waterloo to Hounslow (2tph)
>Virginia Water to Weybridge (2tph)

http://archive.nr.co.uk/browse docu...-access-application-form-p fmswt dec18 v2.pdf

So the Virginia Water - Weybridge shuttle allowed by the ITT is also confirmed, as we discussed a few months back it was probably the best way of providing paths...

The TAA contains far more info about additional stabling requirements, and I think previously unmentioned news that the 442s will operate in fixed 10 car formation.
 
Last edited:

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
So reading through that, if it's correct, means your original guesses were correct and the Portsmouth Weymouth services will stop literally all stops, with a 25 minute wait at Brockenhurst as the current semi fast is slow to Poole, and the Poole stopper is a stopper to Southampton. Would it not make sense to have the new semi fast Portsmouth service connect into the original Weymouth semi fast?
 

Matt Taylor

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2008
Messages
2,339
Location
Portsmouth
So that's a minimum 2h20 journey time to Poole and that's not including any dwell time at Southampton to allow people to transfer to the fast Weymouth, so in many respects this is a throw back to the early 1990s when there was an hourly Class 423 running with a headcode of 87 which was all shacks from Wareham to Portsmouth and back.

There's talk of reduced dwell times on the metro routes so I wouldn't be surprised to see drivers opening doors on these routes or throughout the network.

From other sources (not official I hasten to add) I hear that the first 442s could be arriving this year for crew training etc before entry in to service in spring and a gradual release of units from overhaul until the fleet is complete in December 2018.
 

RichardN

Member
Joined
29 Nov 2013
Messages
430
And the extra service between Portsmouth and Waterloo is an all stations (south of Guildford) stopper that is probably overtaken at Haslemere. As far as I can see the only benefit will be to the handful of passengers that travel between Witley/Milford and Liphook/Liss etc. (to be fair there are some Bo Hunt schoolkids that do that journey.)
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
Is removing the layover at Brockenhurst possible? I've been looking for an earlier thread where it was discussed (with no success) and I seem to recall it being considered impossible if the other services including XC all kept their timings. But as we know they are talking about a major rewrite for Dec 2018 so who knows...

Just like the current Poole train from Waterloo is completely the wrong choice for any main stations from Southampton westwards, because of the two "overtakes", then I expect this slow Weymouth is another that should not be advertised as a Weymouth service at Southampton...

Incidentally, it mentions that the truncated Poole train that becomes a Waterloo to Southampton semi fast will pick up calls at St Denys, (assume both ways) like it used to have a few years ago, an obvious impact of that (if all else stays the same) is that it will slow down the 2 hourly XC that usually catches it up around Eastleigh or Parkway.

Another thing that will only become obvious later is that during the afternoon peak some down direction Poole services (xx39s?) are diverted to become Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Wonder if they'll carry on with that arrangement, and so there isn't a gap in the Eastleigh to Southampton pattern, there'll still be a few short workings from Basingstoke I assume. Suppose it could also be portion worked and split like today's 1839 does.
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,301
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Just like the current Poole train from Waterloo is completely the wrong choice for any main stations from Southampton westwards, because of the two "overtakes", then I expect this slow Weymouth is another that should not be advertised as a Weymouth service at Southampton...

That issue has been solved at Euston and now all other LM stations by showing arrival times on the PIS. So now no longer any need to make up fake destinations. Show the time and let the passenger choose.
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,726
Swanwick provide a fair old flow of passengers, so they may not be over the moon about that.

From reading the internal site, it would appear that SWR want to run a fast Portsmouth service via Guildford, leaving around 00:15-00:20.
I had been hoping for something at 0.50 to match the Monday Morning [Sunday night] service that is currently provided.

Of course anything is better than nothing and the 0.15 might still be late enough to help people leaving concerts's at Wembley Arena and the O2.

One might argue that it's unfortunate that some bands seem to want to finish late or have multiple bands on the bill that it finishes late. By late I mean after 11pm. Getting out and back after 11pm at times can be tight. At a Paul McCartney gig I only made it home because it was Sunday night and the 0.50 [Monday morning] was running through Guildford.
 
Last edited:

Matt Taylor

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2008
Messages
2,339
Location
Portsmouth
You can do an all stations Southampton to Poole without a wait at Brockenhurst and it happens daily when a pair 444s split at Southampton with the front portion continuing as a fast and the rear portion continuing as a stopper.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,528
You can do an all stations Southampton to Poole without a wait at Brockenhurst and it happens daily when a pair 444s split at Southampton with the front portion continuing as a fast and the rear portion continuing as a stopper.

So how come there have been previous attempts in forums to explain why it cannot be done?

From what you are suggesting it could have been possible to remove the Brockenhurst wait at any time. Is it really that they just couldn't be bothered to do anything about it?
 

pompeyfan

Established Member
Joined
24 Jan 2012
Messages
4,197
And the extra service between Portsmouth and Waterloo is an all stations (south of Guildford) stopper that is probably overtaken at Haslemere. As far as I can see the only benefit will be to the handful of passengers that travel between Witley/Milford and Liphook/Liss etc. (to be fair there are some Bo Hunt schoolkids that do that journey.)

The 2 Portsmouth stoppers are planned to both be semi fasts running a stop/skip pattern with no overtakes anymore.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top