Class 701 'Aventra' trains for South Western Railway: progress updates

[3141]

My point is just that he was perhaps Siemens-biased which is why SWT liked to order from them but as you say, First/MTR don't have that.

I appreciate it was a poorly made point, sorry but hopefully you catch my drift.

Thanks for the clarification - I'd got the drift, now I see the route by which you were getting there!

My recollection is that Christian Roth joined SWT after they'd placed their main order for 444s and 450s. With so many Siemens trains it use the more recent order for 707s made sense. I believe they were expecting a few years ago to order additional class 450 vehicles to lengthen those on the Windsor lines to 5 cars, but the Porterbrook proposal to use 460s to lengthen the 458s and provide six more trains was cheaper (at least before the work started).

 

[class387]

Is there any publicly available evidence - e..g comparison documents or numbers?

My impression is that the Desiro (not the City) is a better product than the Electrostar, but I have no knowledge of the newer product families.

Agreed, but the 345 is far better than the 700 to travel on.

 

[47802]

Agreed, but the 345 is far better than the 700 to travel on.

In what way is the 345 better? the interiors are not directly comparable as the 345's have been TFL'd and are more metro, I guess a more direct comparison interior wise will be the SWT Aventra version, but other than the different interior and styling it strikes me the 700's and Aventra's are much of a muchness.

 

[class387]

In what way is the 345 better? the interiors are not directly comparable as the 345's have been TFL'd and are more metro, I guess a more direct comparison well be the SWT Aventra version, but other than the different interior and styling it strikes me the 700's and Aventra's are much of a muchness.

They seem to have better ride quality, build quality and comfort with the transverse seats as well as so far being reliable (though that could change).

 

[AlexNL]

as so far being reliable (though that could change).

They've only been in service for a day or two. Give the public some time to break them, will ya?

 

[AM9]

They seem to have better ride quality, build quality and comfort with the transverse seats as well as so far being reliable (though that could change).

Have you travelled up the MML or down the BML in a 345, or taken a trip along in a 700 along the GEML? I presume not so how can you possibly comment on the two classes' relative ride quality?
And as for your reliability assessment, based on two days travel over the 20 miles route on the GEML, however the diagrams run daily by the 700s by my rough calculation exceed 15000 miles per day, so could you please explain your "as well as so far being reliable" statement?

 

[Fuzzytop]

Does anyone know the origin of the name? Is it just a marketing linguistic abomination?

They mixed together the French word for future - avenir - and, well, train. I assume that the French is a nod to Bombardier's home of Québec.

 

[class387]

Have you travelled up the MML or down the BML in a 345, or taken a trip along in a 700 along the GEML? I presume not so how can you possibly comment on the two classes' relative ride quality?
And as for your reliability assessment, based on two days travel over the 20 miles route on the GEML, however the diagrams run daily by the 700s by my rough calculation exceed 15000 miles per day, so could you please explain your "as well as so far being reliable" statement?

I remember the 700s being problematic from day 1, while the 345s have run without any issues odelays for three days now (yes, as I've said, that could change). As for ride quality, perhaps it's just me, but a 345 seems to ride better than a 700 on the slow MML services, which is roughly comparable.

 

[samuelmorris]

I agree that's a bit premature, even if it bodes well - 120 miles in public service isn't much to go on just yet. As far as ride quality is concerned, I really didn't find 700s that bad, so any comparison I could make is difficult. In terms of 'build quality' I think I actually still prefer the fit and finish of the 700, the main issues I have with it are entirely down to how the DfT have specified it. The 345 is by no means fault-free yet, with a few bugs to diagnose that are visible to the passenger and quite possibly some that aren't. It will be telling how quickly they are resolved. My first outing on a 345 was only two weeks short of a year since my first outing on a 700, and my understanding is that they are still grappling with software issues on the 700s - that's the real reason for the criticism. I didn't see, nor have I read anything, to denote any physical build quality issues with the 700s. There are a lot of familiar Bombardier design cues inside the 345, alongside lots of new unfamiliar ones. While traversing the points at Gidea Park sidings, possibly the worst section of the route for ride quality, I did hear something rattling behind me. Let's see how a year or so's service affects things before jumping to conclusions about that!

 

[fgwrich]

I agree that's a bit premature, even if it bodes well - 120 miles in public service isn't much to go on just yet. As far as ride quality is concerned, I really didn't find 700s that bad, so any comparison I could make is difficult. In terms of 'build quality' I think I actually still prefer the fit and finish of the 700, the main issues I have with it are entirely down to how the DfT have specified it. The 345 is by no means fault-free yet, with a few bugs to diagnose that are visible to the passenger and quite possibly some that aren't. It will be telling how quickly they are resolved. My first outing on a 345 was only two weeks short of a year since my first outing on a 700, and my understanding is that they are still grappling with software issues on the 700s - that's the real reason for the criticism. I didn't see, nor have I read anything, to denote any physical build quality issues with the 700s. There are a lot of familiar Bombardier design cues inside the 345, alongside lots of new unfamiliar ones. While traversing the points at Gidea Park sidings, possibly the worst section of the route for ride quality, I did hear something rattling behind me. Let's see how a year or so's service affects things before jumping to conclusions about that!

That I completely agree with. I have never found fault yet with the 700s, my only gripes being down to the specifications supplied by the DfT to Siemens. It's a shame they're still grappling with Software issues, but for the job they're doing, when they work they're perfectly fine units. I'd actually say they're some of the best riding units on the network - and don't forgot that while the 345 use Bombsrdiers familiar Flexx-Eco bogie, the 700s could have used similar had Bombardier decided not to work with Siemens.

I also think it's a little unfair trying to compare the two when one has a much shorter much more limited job (for now) to do while the other has some considerable mileage to put in and almost expected to work straight out of the box from the start. We shall see how the Aventra copes, hopefully they'll have finally given themselves a QC kick up the backside in Derby (I'm talking about loose items, rattling panels, door buttons, quality of materials), but I think it's a little too early to jump straight to conclusions without giving them time to settle in first.

 

[Mordac]

I agree that's a bit premature, even if it bodes well - 120 miles in public service isn't much to go on just yet. As far as ride quality is concerned, I really didn't find 700s that bad, so any comparison I could make is difficult. In terms of 'build quality' I think I actually still prefer the fit and finish of the 700, the main issues I have with it are entirely down to how the DfT have specified it. The 345 is by no means fault-free yet, with a few bugs to diagnose that are visible to the passenger and quite possibly some that aren't. It will be telling how quickly they are resolved. My first outing on a 345 was only two weeks short of a year since my first outing on a 700, and my understanding is that they are still grappling with software issues on the 700s - that's the real reason for the criticism. I didn't see, nor have I read anything, to denote any physical build quality issues with the 700s. There are a lot of familiar Bombardier design cues inside the 345, alongside lots of new unfamiliar ones. While traversing the points at Gidea Park sidings, possibly the worst section of the route for ride quality, I did hear something rattling behind me. Let's see how a year or so's service affects things before jumping to conclusions about that!

But how are the buttons holding up?

 

[Bornin1980s]

I still see mention of continuing software issues on the 700. Was it easier to get trains in service on time when they didn't use computers?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Better spec (including reliability) and tens of million cheaper than Siemens bid (making it easier to justify more new stock than if they had gone for Siemens).

Derby and reliability.... hmmmm.

 

[samuelmorris]

But how are the buttons holding up?

Honestly, they did feel a bit flimsy to me, but they are nonetheless a different design to the ones on the later Electrostars, so here's hoping!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How close (apart from the obvious of source of power - OLE - v 3rd rail) are the SWTs Aventras to the Goblin Aventras? Given the delays to the GOBLIN electrification, would it be worth FirstMTR looking into the possibility of borrowing some of the GOBLIN Aventras to get an early start on driver training?

 

[dp21]

How close (apart from the obvious of source of power - OLE - v 3rd rail) are the SWTs Aventras to the Goblin Aventras? Given the delays to the GOBLIN electrification, would it be worth FirstMTR looking into the possibility of borrowing some of the GOBLIN Aventras to get an early start on driver training?

I'd imagine a lot of the primary technicalities will be the same, however the apparent difference in cab design will play a factor certainly around just getting used to the new working environment, I feel.

I would be surprised to see LO lend one of theirs to SW. I imagine there will be a number of different quirks to the SW fleet which aren't present on the LO trains and would be important for the drivers to know.

I do understand your point and can see the advantages but I would be surprised if this happened.

Historically, did the first electrostar users lend any of their units to other TOCs for driver training? I'm just trying to think of a similar scenario from the past.

 

[D365]

Derby and reliability.... hmmmm.

The Class 387s have been doing just fine haven't they.

 

[swt_passenger]

How close (apart from the obvious of source of power - OLE - v 3rd rail) are the SWTs Aventras to the Goblin Aventras? Given the delays to the GOBLIN electrification, would it be worth FirstMTR looking into the possibility of borrowing some of the GOBLIN Aventras to get an early start on driver training?

The Goblin electrification, although obviously running late, isn't likely to make any Aventras spare. They were never planned to be ready in time for the electrification completion, Goblin was going to stay DMU operated well after the wiring went up, some time into 2018. I expect despite all the hand wringing it will still be live before the rolling stock arrives.

Also, the Goblin fleet are dual voltage anyway, because they will be shared with the DC lines.

 

[absolutelymilk]

RAIL has referred to these units as Class 701s.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/class-707s-enter-traffic-with-south-western-railway

They will leave the SWR franchise when new Class 701 Aventras are delivered.

 

[D365]

 

[SpacePhoenix]

RAIL has referred to these units as Class 701s.

http://www.railmagazine.com/news/fleet/class-707s-enter-traffic-with-south-western-railway

That's only in the comments. afaik there's been no official confirmation as to what the class number will be

 

[AlexNL]

So this is what they will look like:

Source: Railstaff.uk: UK transport secretary 'absolutely certain' Class 707s have a future.

 

[Uzair]

Oh dear.

 

[Olaf]

They mixed together the French word for future - avenir - and, well, train. I assume that the French is a nod to Bombardier's home of Québec.

Thanks. Yes, that will be from Quebecois origin.

 

[xc170]

So this is what they will look like:

Source: Railstaff.uk: UK transport secretary 'absolutely certain' Class 707s have a future.

I actually really like the look of that.

The main SWR logo along the bodyside needs to be smaller though.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think the word I'm looking for is.. dull. It's just asking for a yellow end..

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the word I'm looking for is.. dull. It's just asking for a yellow end..

Yellow end or no, the nose is a bit squashed and ugly. Is there a reason for that (such as them only just fitting the platforms so no space for an extra metre of fancy snout)? Other Aventras are more streamlined and look better, e.g. the Crossrail ones or the proposed GA ones. Or is this just the standard snout for the 20m variant?

The livery seems to fit them well, but I still sort of think that having SW<logo>R and the full text on the same vehicle looks overbranded, and the logo device just looks like something out of Wingdings.

Shame there are no gangways, First did have the sense to spec them for GWR.

 

[47802]

Yellow end or no, the nose is a bit squashed and ugly. Is there a reason for that (such as them only just fitting the platforms so no space for an extra metre of fancy snout)? Other Aventras are more streamlined and look better, e.g. the Crossrail ones or the proposed GA ones. Or is this just the standard snout for the 20m variant?

The livery seems to fit them well, but I still sort of think that having SW<logo>R and the full text on the same vehicle looks overbranded, and the logo device just looks like something out of Wingdings.

Shame there are no gangways, First did have the sense to spec them for GWR.

Since all the 387's were built with a corridor connection and the first 8 were part of an add on order its unlikely they were going to change them for a non corridor 387.

It is interesting that cab seems to be substancially changed from other Aventra versions. As we know providing a corridor connection with the latest crash regs isn't that easy, OK the 385 and 380 have it but looks a bit of an abomination and the view that the driver will have on the 385's doesn't look that great.

 

[absolutelymilk]

That's only in the comments. afaik there's been no official confirmation as to what the class number will be

Nope, see the last line of the article.

 

[swt_passenger]

Going back to the SWR order being split into 60 x 10 car and 30 x 5 car, has anyone got an idea if the 5 car versions will see much use as individual units?

Is it likely for instance that they will nearly all (see below) run as pairs during the week, but the Saturday and/or Sunday timetables will see some routes reduce to single units, as we have seen recently with SWT's use of the 455s?

I'd also suspect that the future shuttle service Weybridge to Virginia Water might only use 5 car trains 7/7 - anyone agree with this possibility?