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Merseyrail - What's the point of Hunts Cross?

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frodshamfella

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A Liverpool Airport railway station or light rail stop has been proposed for decades but has not happened because there is not enough demand to justify spending the money. Liverpool South Parkway bus link provides a link and frankly the airport does not compare with Manchester, Birmingham, Stansted, Gatwick or Heathrow.

But it should be remembered that Liverpool Airport has grown significantly from the days you could just cross the Irish Sea and that's it, and it continues to. I fly from there monthly to Portugal, the planes are always full and I see no reason for that not to continue. A bus links ok for now, but it years to come it will be a handicap and an airport rail link will be what's needed for the airport to grow.
 
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fowler9

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To add to this I feel that taking the Northern Line or City Line to JLA is a financial none starter. Because a lot of the flights from Liverpool are on aircraft based there you find there are spells of a couple of hours when planes are queuing up to take off followed by spells of a couple of hours where next to nothing happens. to make it financially viable trains would have to start a hell of a lot earlier and finish a hell of a lot later. I'd be made up if it happened but it won't.
 

frodshamfella

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To add to this I feel that taking the Northern Line or City Line to JLA is a financial none starter. Because a lot of the flights from Liverpool are on aircraft based there you find there are spells of a couple of hours when planes are queuing up to take off followed by spells of a couple of hours where next to nothing happens. to make it financially viable trains would have to start a hell of a lot earlier and finish a hell of a lot later. I'd be made up if it happened but it won't.

But that's now maybe, ten years maybe not. Plan ahead that's what I say. :)
 
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fowler9

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But that's now maybe, ten years maybe not. Plan ahead that's what I say. :)

True mate, anything is possible. Speke alone could do with a rail link. They are currently stuck using the bus which at busy times is a drag. I think the point of what I am saying is that given funding has been pulled for electrification in the North I doubt that anyone is going to fund a new railway line to JLA. It would cost an absolute fortune no matter how straight forward it looks on a map. For it to happen JLA would have to have expanded and that would cost an absolute fortune as well. I think for that to be funded it would need Manchester Airport to be at or near to capacity and it isn't. KLM have come and gone in recent years along with Czech Airlines. Aer Lingus have put smaller planes on their service. JLA seems to have found its market, I just wish either Easyjet or Ryanair flew from here to Dubrovnik so that I don't have to go to Manchester on Saturday.
 
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notlob.divad

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Nit sure how Hunts Cross srarted talking about the airport but. Ok

I think that the station at Krakow airport is at the end of a very short spur off an existing railway line (Correct me if I am wrong).

Krakow airport is a very short spur of an old disused freight alignment. However they did have to rebuild most of the formation and relay the track which is about 5km to the mainline

Another Polish example is my local airport Gdansk. Last year a new line opened, again making use of old frieght alignments for part of its the length. But again major new formations where built along with 9 new stations. It is so new they haven't even finished, 2 stations are still under construction at the Gdynia end. It has by all accounts been hugely successful with passenger usage far outstripping expectations. So much so a recent bid has just been put in to create another new station and to electrify the whole line.

Liverpool Airport is difficult now, but not impossible if there was political will. However the biggest frustration has to be that an alignment hasn't been safeguarded since the airport moved from its original location.
 

frodshamfella

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True mate, anything is possible. Speke alone could do with a rail link. They are currently stuck using the bus which at busy times is a drag. I think the point of what I am saying is that given funding has been pulled for electrification in the North I doubt that anyone is going to fund a new railway line to JLA. It would cost an absolute fortune no matter how straight forward it looks on a map. For it to happen JLA would have to have expanded and that would cost an absolute fortune as well. I think for that to be funded it would need Manchester Airport to be at or near to capacity and it isn't. KLM have come and gone in recent years along with Czech Airlines. Aer Lingus have put smaller planes on their service. JLA seems to have found its market, I just wish either Easyjet or Ryanair flew from here to Dubrovnik so that I don't have to go to Manchester on Saturday.

Yep totally agree, folk in Speke it must be a complete drag getting the bus, considering there are rail lines nearby but they just don't have that link available to them, it's not like its a small place, i'm sure they would just sit on the bus, after chopping and changing at South Parkway or Hunts Cross. So if a line was ever built Speke must have a station too, I did hear there was a thought for a station for Jaguar area talked about, but as you said where the money ? Mainly in building infrastructure in London I'd say, and we wont be getting any more E.U cash either !

Blue Air and Wizz Air are doing well out for Liverpool so you never know you might get your wish for a flight to Dubrovnik., I wouldn't mind a trip there too ! Never understood why KLM or Aer Lingus stopped ( for the second time !) figures were upwards, I think there's more to it. Czech made a bit of a hash of it the first year, with rubbish timings for a weekend break, and then delayed start up, Having said that, I flew on them during their second year and it was full. Ryanair have picked up the Prague route any way now, with more frequencies, so there's actually more choice.
 
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frodshamfella

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But going back to Hunts Cross, there is a point to it, because its well used and no other station is that close by . As for Merseyrail, perhaps it should not be there terminus for ever, and extend beyond. I am very pro them doing this as they offer a great service.
 
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PR1Berske

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Briefly on the Airport, I can't be the only poster on this forum who has used crayons to draw an imagined link between South Parkway and the Airport....and beyond.....and I can't say with much confidence that it's all the possible, never mind all that affordable.
 

urbophile

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I don't know what the population is for Speke, but it is sizeable. Kirkby, maybe slightly bigger but with a similar demographic, has been on Merseyrail from the beginning: for the want of a little investment (minute by national or London standards) you could kill two birds with one stone and provide a vital transport link to that rather forgotten estate as well as the airport. It might do wonders for its prosperity and a lot for the morale of its population, who would provide the bulk of the passengers especially during the 'dead' times at John Lennon.
 

Dixie

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LJL Airports website states:

The Airport has ambitious plans to serve more destinations including long haul, with passenger forecasts indicating the potential to grow passenger numbers from 4.8 million passengers per year in 2016 to 7.8 million by 2030, and to 11 million by 2050.
 

Dixie

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The attached is about the only way that you might get heavy rail to the airport, with a burrowing junction alongside the main line. There is more room on the north side of the line here, but the slow lines are on the south (I think). Problems here include an overbridge (access to the JLR factory) and the JLR sidings, and the A561 all of which would have to be tunnelled under. Even the station would have to be in a cutting or tunnel.

All in all, very expensive.
 

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PR1Berske

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The attached is about the only way that you might get heavy rail to the airport, with a burrowing junction alongside the main line. There is more room on the north side of the line here, but the slow lines are on the south (I think). Problems here include an overbridge (access to the JLR factory) and the JLR sidings, and the A561 all of which would have to be tunnelled under. Even the station would have to be in a cutting or tunnel.

All in all, very expensive.

All the more expensive when you factor in a new station at the airport with all the modern step-free access requirements and security features necessary in these times of potential danger at airports.

I'm feeling here as I did during the recent Skipton to Colne thread. Dreams of new lines and stations often end up being crushed to death under the cold boot of financial reality (see also, I think, the Watford extension.)
 

fowler9

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The attached is about the only way that you might get heavy rail to the airport, with a burrowing junction alongside the main line. There is more room on the north side of the line here, but the slow lines are on the south (I think). Problems here include an overbridge (access to the JLR factory) and the JLR sidings, and the A561 all of which would have to be tunnelled under. Even the station would have to be in a cutting or tunnel.

All in all, very expensive.

That red line would have to stay in a tunnel after it left the WCML, as it gets to the airport it is going right through the middle of the general aviation terminal and a parcels depot which I think is either DHL or TNT.
 

frodshamfella

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I'm not looking at a map, but from driving a long the Speke Road..it soon opens out into fields , could an option be for a line to go further out say taking in a station for the industrial sites ago around Jaguar, then loop back to Speke and Airport. I know the cost would be high, but so would the benefits. Personally I'd rather see projects such as this rather than HS2.
 

fowler9

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But going back to Hunts Cross, there is a point to it, because its well used and no other station is that close by . As for Merseyrail, perhaps it should not be there terminus for ever, and extend beyond. I am very pro them doing this as they offer a great service.

You are right, Hunts Cross is important in the area. I'm not sure about Merseyrail extending though, the obvious target would be Warrington and would pretty much mean the end of long distance services using the CLC which would mean a hell of a lot of people somehow terminating at Warrington and transferring to a metro service to get to either the centre of Liverpool or the airport, and transferring again to get to the airport. Where there is a will there is a way but given the government has just cancelled a load of electrification projects in the North I wouldn't count on Joe Anderson being able to lobby the government to build a new underground line from the CLC and the WCML to the airport to make any of this make any sense. :D
 

fowler9

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I'm not looking at a map, but from driving a long the Speke Road..it soon opens out into fields , could an option be for a line to go further out say taking in a station for the industrial sites ago around Jaguar, then loop back to Speke and Airport. I know the cost would be high, but so would the benefits. Personally I'd rather see projects such as this rather than HS2.

Once you get to the airport land it would have to be in a tunnel and then cost comes in to it again more so than it would do anyway. The benefits wouldn't be that high unless you could guarantee that everyone from Speke would get to the airport to take the train. Actually, if it is in a tunnel you could give Speke a very central underground station, again given the cost it will never happen.
 

Bevan Price

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I don't know what the population is for Speke, but it is sizeable. Kirkby, maybe slightly bigger but with a similar demographic, has been on Merseyrail from the beginning: for the want of a little investment (minute by national or London standards) you could kill two birds with one stone and provide a vital transport link to that rather forgotten estate as well as the airport. It might do wonders for its prosperity and a lot for the morale of its population, who would provide the bulk of the passengers especially during the 'dead' times at John Lennon.


The combined population of Speke + Garston council ward is just over 20,000; cannot find a separate figure for Speke, but I would guess at least 10,000. So - if an airport rail link is ever contemplated, then a station for Speke - probably underground - would seem very desirable. The Airport is too far from most of the populated areas to serve as a useful station for the whole of Speke.
 

fowler9

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The combined population of Speke + Garston council ward is just over 20,000; cannot find a separate figure for Speke, but I would guess at least 10,000. So - if an airport rail link is ever contemplated, then a station for Speke - probably underground - would seem very desirable. The Airport is too far from most of the populated areas to serve as a useful station for the whole of Speke.

The airport is actually just over the road from the populated area, just that of course it is on the edge of it Which means that for a lot of people in Speke they are probably still better off getting the bus straight to the city centre rather than walking to the station to get a train. That said the 80 and 82 do take a while to get in to town. The 86A and 82A less so but you still need to get to the airport to catch them. The 82A is probably quicker than the 500 airport bus now that the 500 calls at South Parkway.
 

frodshamfella

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If the political will was ever there in the future, I think Speke and the Airport would both require their own stations.
 

frodshamfella

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Out of interest I looked at a map of Liverpool railway network map to see Hunts Cross in relation to other stations, there really are some gapping holes where there is no nearby rail at all, a lot of south Liverpool actually, also Croxteth, West Derby, Stoneycroft and Knowsley
 

Bletchleyite

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Out of interest I looked at a map of Liverpool railway network map to see Hunts Cross in relation to other stations, there really are some gapping holes where there is no nearby rail at all, a lot of south Liverpool actually, also Croxteth, West Derby, Stoneycroft and Knowsley

I think that was the basis of Merseytram, even though it sounded on the face of it like it was duplicating the Kirkby line, the Merseyrail lines all follow the river near enough and miss out the bulk of the eastern part of the city.
 

frodshamfella

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I think that was the basis of Merseytram, even though it sounded on the face of it like it was duplicating the Kirkby line, the Merseyrail lines all follow the river near enough and miss out the bulk of the eastern part of the city.

I think someone mentioned about extending from Hunts Cross to Gateacre, I know this is now a cycle path (ex railway line), but it would look from the map little obstruction to linking that area.
 

mr_jrt

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The attached is about the only way that you might get heavy rail to the airport, with a burrowing junction alongside the main line. There is more room on the north side of the line here, but the slow lines are on the south (I think). Problems here include an overbridge (access to the JLR factory) and the JLR sidings, and the A561 all of which would have to be tunnelled under. Even the station would have to be in a cutting or tunnel.

All in all, very expensive.

...why not keep heading north and branch off the line after Halewood instead? Then your service is just an extension from Hunt's Cross. Also means you then have another feather to put into the BCR calculations of reopening some of the line via Gateacre with direct airport services...
 

Gareth

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That red line would have to stay in a tunnel after it left the WCML, as it gets to the airport it is going right through the middle of the general aviation terminal and a parcels depot which I think is either DHL or TNT.


I'm not sure Dixie's alignment was to be taken too literally; rather it was more a general concept illustrating how a rail line could be taken down the eastern flank of the Speke estate (which I concur is probably the only way you could do it without extensive demolition or tunnelling). You could rationalise Hale Road which currently has a weird 'two separate parallel roads' configuration into a wider single road to the north. There should then (from looking at Google Earth, at least) be enough space to fit a twin track railway to the south of the road without encroaching on either the Ravenair/Flying School complex nor the TNT depot. Aiming for at or near the foot of Western Avenue, a small slice of the long stay car park would have to be surrendered but that's about it. Of course, this would be a slight compromise location as it would be about 200m from the terminal but I feel it's necessary for it to be readily accessible for the residents of the southern part of the Speke estate who would probably be the majority of the passengers. An elevated corridor could connect the station with the eastern end of the airport terminal, á la Manchester.

The main drawback is the indirect route which would be slower than any hypothetical 'as the crow flies' equivalent one but I feel it would still be competitive with the 82/86A buses which can take an age (done the 82 end-to-end once, it was seriously not funny). Sure, being situated on the southern perimeter of the estate means it would be distant to large parts of it but it's a big estate and even a central station would be fairly distant to those on the periphery.

A tram-train would be better in this respect as it could probably run on a much more direct alignment between South Parkway & the airport and probably serve Speke better, perhaps with one or more intermediate stops. The tram-train would be slower on the 'light rail' section, especially with more stops but the more direct alignment would offset this a little. The other issue is the bespoke tram-train units and their maintenance and stabling requirements although this is probably not insurmountable.

It would be interesting to see a high level comparison of the two options and find which would come out on top.
 

Gareth

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Reinstating the inner and outer loops would connect those areas, though bus would remain quicker to the city centre as it's a fairly long way round.

It would probably only be worthwhile if it was the more ambitious version which envisioned splitting the line at Broad Green and feeding both legs (along with Chat Moss stoppers) into a new underground station. The trains were to then go back overground briefly towards Edge Hill and then into either the Wapping or Victoria tunnels connecting into the Merseyrail underground system. Of course, this was before Wavertree Tech Park station and the fouling of the four track alignment with the station footprint. If the scheme was to ever be resurrected, then it would probably be better to be in tunnel all the way from Broad Green to the centre. Removing the stoppers would mean Wavertree Station needing serving by regional trains to keep its frequency up to at least 4tph or so. Considering we're not getting HS2 it would be one way to relieve the line into Lime Street but it wouldn't happen for the same reason HS2 into Liverpool isn't - i.e. the city's not deemed worthy of spending significant money on.
 
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fowler9

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Can I just apologise for seeming so negative and knocking everyones ideas. There are some really good ideas here I just keep coming back to the money in my head. Realistically none of it is going to get funding without a massive expansion of the airport. The current bus service copes easily with the numbers from the city centre and South Parkway. I'm not convinced that the current numbers that drive to the airport are going to start using public transport because it becomes a train.
 

Gareth

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Sure, road traffic may well still make up the majority of trips to and from the airport, as it still does for Manchester despite it having had a station for some years now and the political imperative that near enough anywhere and everywhere in the North has a direct link to it. Like I said, I would envisage a station at that location (Hale Rd/Western Ave) to have probably more local traffic from Speke than from the airport. A tram-train with one or more intermediate stops would have even less dependency on airport traffic.

The buses may well 'cope' well but buses are slow and less reassuring to someone from out of town who may not know where and when to get off, or even if they're on the right one (especially those from a foreign country). In these situations, a taxi, although more expensive, is far more reassuring, as well as quicker. A fixed link in form of a rail line that goes to the main rail station in the centre would be another option for those heading into the centre. Sure, many will not contemplate public transport over private cars or taxis no matter what, especially those whose final destination is away from the railway line but there would no doubt be a fair few who would consider the rail service in a way they wouldn't consider the bus.
 

fowler9

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Sure, road traffic may well still make up the majority of trips to and from the airport, as it still does for Manchester despite it having had a station for some years now and the political imperative that near enough anywhere and everywhere in the North has a direct link to it. Like I said, I would envisage a station at that location (Hale Rd/Western Ave) to have probably more local traffic from Speke than from the airport. A tram-train with one or more intermediate stops would have even less dependency on airport traffic.

The buses may well 'cope' well but buses are slow and less reassuring to someone from out of town who may not know where and when to get off, or even if they're on the right one (especially those from a foreign country). In these situations, a taxi, although more expensive, is far more reassuring, as well as quicker. A fixed link in form of a rail line that goes to the main rail station in the centre would be another option for those heading into the centre. Sure, many will not contemplate public transport over private cars or taxis no matter what, especially those whose final destination is away from the railway line but there would no doubt be a fair few who would consider the rail service in a way they wouldn't consider the bus.

I don't think you credit people from our neighboring countries with enough intelligence. Many, many people in Europe are far more fluent in English than most English people are in any other European language. They find it really easy to get around. Why would they find it easier to get to the right train station in town than to get to the right bus stop to get to the airport? Lets face it, they aren't going to accidentally going to get off by West Allerton thinking it is the airport. I have got a train from El Prat Airport in Barcelona and it took me directly to a terminal station that was no where near where I needed to be. (I did argue with my friend about the train we were on because like you he assumed that if the train went to a terminus it would be exactly where we needed to be).
 

frodshamfella

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I think it's fair to say a rail link to the Airport via Speke is a bit of a way off, I certainly think it's highly desirable and would be a huge boost to both Liverpool Airport and the city in general. Liverpool Airport already draws passenger from far beyond the immediate area and South parkway has helped that massively . The first time I flew from Liverpool I got off at i think it was Garston station and got a so called bus connection, it was all a bit vague ! So it's much better now, I quite often get the train from Acton Bridge to South parkway and bus transfer into airport and when Halton Curve opens I will do it from Frodsham too. I will wait for day I can stroll into the terminal from an airport station, but l won't hold my breath unfortunately, political powers are still London centric.
 
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