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Merseyrail - What's the point of Hunts Cross?

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Greybeard33

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We have to look at any scheme on its own merits, and I can't see how replacing the current Northern service with an extension to Merseyrail could possibly have a negative return on investment

As I (and others) have said upthread, your idea of splitting the CLC line at Warrington is politically a non-starter, so the economics are academic. I see you are now even proposing that the Northern Connect Manchester Airport to Lime Street semi-fast (which switches to the CLC line next May) should be truncated to Warrington Central. That would be unacceptable to Liverpool, never mind Warrington! And there is no other Northern semi-fast on the Chat Moss line that could also switch to the CLC line to make room for the EMT Norwich service.

Reopening Hunts Cross to Gateacre, as proposed by daodao in #72, would be feasible (I think the alignment is pretty much unobstructed, except that the cycleway/footpath would have to be diverted and the Hunts Cross signal box relocated) and would not adversely affect CLC line services. But I doubt that the revenue from the additional passengers (some of whom would be cannibalised from Hunts Cross) would be sufficient to cover the operating costs of an additional trainset plus the maintenance cost of the extension. So the Merseyrail cash operating subsidy would have to increase - a negative return on the investment in the extension.
 
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Dixie

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The Merseyrail DC service should be extended from Hunt's Cross to Gateacre with an intermediate station to serve new housing development.

An extension to Gateacre was a desire of Merseytravel for years, but has never got passed the proposed stage. It certainly has potential, and would cut journeys to the city centre from about 35/40 minutes to around 21 minutes. The line could be single track, so there would still be space for the Trans Penine Trail bike and walking path, though it may have to be narrower and slightly relocated. An intermediate station adjacent to Arncliffe Road/Okell Drive would be useful and used.

Regarding having an increased service from Liverpool Central to Warrington Central, maybe this would fit in with the proposal (set out in the Merseytravel Committee Rail Development and Delivery Scheme Promoter’s Perspective document dated 3rd November 2016 - http://moderngov.merseytravel.uk.net/documents/s18865/Presentation.pdf) to build the connection from just south of Liverpool Central into the Wapping Tunnel, allowing trains going south from Liverpool Central to emerge at Edge Hill and access the lines to Manchester and Crewe. Possible services might then include Ormskirk and/or Kirkby to Warrington Central via Liverpool Central and Edge Hill. This would provide an enhanced service for the stations from Edge Hill, every 15 minutes if the existing Ormskirk and Kirkby services were simply extended from Liverpool Central. No additional platforms would be required as the trains would simply exit the station into the new junction tunnels rather than terminate in those platforms as they do now. An additional station could be provided at Smithdown Road as this area is not currently served by trains.

However, all of these developments would need a lot of money and therefore are unlikely to happen anytime soon.
 
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Tomnot27

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Couldn't you just keep the current Em and northern semi fast and fit in the 4tph merseyrail to Warrington with the appropriate infurstructure changes e.g overhead wires.

Then northern run a 2tph all stops from Warrington central to Manchester Oxford Road

It would require Warrington central to be changed by extending the Manchester platform so two 6-car trains can fit in with a crossover in the middle and a new Manchester bound bay platform to the north.
 

fowler9

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Couldn't you just keep the current Em and northern semi fast and fit in the 4tph merseyrail to Warrington with the appropriate infurstructure changes e.g overhead wires.

Then northern run a 2tph all stops from Warrington central to Manchester Oxford Road

It would require Warrington central to be changed by extending the Manchester platform so two 6-car trains can fit in with a crossover in the middle and a new Manchester bound bay platform to the north.

In all honesty no, I don't think you could squeeze in an EM trains and Northern semi fast between 4 Merseyrail services per hour between Hunts Crossl and Warrington. There are regular delays at the mo with 2 northern stoppers, one stopping less than the other.

Splitting the CLC route at Warrington doesn't work either. A very large number of people commute every day right along the CLC route from Manchester to Liverpool and from further afield and a great many get off at South Parkway. I am convinced they would be chuffed getting off there long distance service and dumped on to an all stops Metro style service. I know I wouldn't be happy. Also I mention again the issue of pretty much leaving Mossley Hill and West Allerton without its service unless you turn Liverpools replacement for its cross country service in to an all shacks to Birmingham.
 
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urbophile

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But you could run a 4tph metro service on the slow lines as far as Parkway (or even Hunts Cross, if the Northern line was cut back to Parkway.) If the line were then electrified at least as far as Warrington two of those trains could continue and replace the current Northern stopping service. At present Mossley Hill and West Allerton have the worst service of any stations within the city of Liverpool, and there are few in the wider Merseyside region with worse. (Just noticed the nomenclatural confusion of Northern Rail with Merseyrail Northern Line. Time for a rethink? Merseyrail Squirrel Line... nice rhyming pattern and allusion to the residents of Formby)
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the promotion of the regional services as the City Line is clear enough to avoid this actually causing a problem. And it has of course been the case for years.
 

QueensCurve

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Depends what you mean by "long" but it didn't seem very far to me.

I wouldn't regard it as long either but for people of limited mobility and as a penalty for connecting time it is significant.
 

QueensCurve

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I'm drawn to remodelling Hunts Cross with a dedicated bus link to the airport from there, the more I look at Google Maps.

Opening up Liverpool Airport to the Rail Market may depend on getting through trains to the airport. A change to a bus will always be a disincentive particularly to those with heavy bags. Admittedly it may not be a doable project.
 

Bletchleyite

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It appears to me that a branch off the WCML as it curves left going to the airport would be quite an easy thing to do (there's not a lot in the way), whereas from Merseyrail it would be much more difficult.

So you might have the potential of, say, a 15 minute frequency EMU Lime St, Edge Hill, Mossley Hill, West Allerton, South Parkway and Liverpool Airport service? With dedicated airport branding it could be quite successful. Refurbished 319s (Thameslink ones already have a decent luggage facility) could be used.
 
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snowball

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It appears to me that a branch off the WCML as it curves left going to the airport would be quite an easy thing to do (there's not a lot in the way)
B&Q, industrial estates, and the grounds of Speke Hall (National Trust).
 

Bletchleyite

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B&Q, industrial estates, and the grounds of Speke Hall (National Trust).

A look at an OS map suggests it would be possible to route round buildings. Going down the route of the western dual carriageway and re-routing the airport access to the eastern dual carriageway would be a viable option.
 

driver_m

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A look at an OS map suggests it would be possible to route round buildings. Going down the route of the western dual carriageway and re-routing the airport access to the eastern dual carriageway would be a viable option.

If you look at the actual land, you'd know it isn't easy at all. Between the retail park and Speke Hall Ave. There the massive car compound that is a focal point for distributing cars around the country, that wouldn't be easy to replace and the units on the other side of the road are fairly new and would cost big money to replace. After that it becomes heavily built up again to Woodend Avenue and then it's the Halewood plant which you've no chance of disturbing. No other realistic way to John Lennon now without involving a tunnel.
 
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If you look at the actual land, you'd know it isn't easy at all. Between the retail park and Speke Hall Ave. There the massive car compound that is a focal point for distributing cars around the country, that wouldn't be easy to replace and the units on the other side of the road are fairly new and would cost big money to replace. After that it becomes heavily built up again to Woodend Avenue and then it's the Halewood plant which you've no chance of disturbing. No other realistic way to John Lennon now without involving a tunnel.

I know the area well and you are correct. Even light tram would be very difficult to do. The road from Speke Boulevard to the airport could have the bus lanes converted to tram easy enough but once on the very busy boulevard it is a different matter.
 

MarkyT

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A possible airport alignment? New rising curve from Parkway onto WCML, Elevated to cross the Garston freight access line (with opportunity for grade separated junction to additional Merseyrail branch towards Speke, Ditton, Widnes South, then skirting the shopping centre (with possible additional station), along and above over Estuary Blvd central reservation. No significant demolition required.
 

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A possible airport alignment? New rising curve from Parkway onto WCML, Elevated to cross the Garston freight access line (with opportunity for grade separated junction to additional Merseyrail branch towards Speke, Ditton, Widnes South, then skirting the shopping centre (with possible additional station), along and above over Estuary Blvd central reservation. No significant demolition required.
Eye watering cost though :D
 

MarkyT

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Eye watering cost though :D

I'm sure you're right! Lighter structures, built just for the MR electric trains might help, as could single track for much of the elevated section. Whichever way you go through the industrial area you'd have to cross multiple roads.
 

urbophile

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A possible airport alignment? New rising curve from Parkway onto WCML, Elevated to cross the Garston freight access line (with opportunity for grade separated junction to additional Merseyrail branch towards Speke, Ditton, Widnes South, then skirting the shopping centre (with possible additional station), along and above over Estuary Blvd central reservation. No significant demolition required.

Right across the lawn of Speke Hall??!!!! It's bad enough having Easyjet taking off all the time, without trains every 15 minutes as well.
 

driver_m

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Industrial units don't cost "big money" when compared with railway construction, I wouldn't consider those a barrier at all.

'Hmmm', as Alan Sugar would say on the Apprentice. Obviously haven't been round there much have you? Your idea is unrealistic. Just ask any of the Scouse posters on here if you don't believe me.
 

Chester1

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A Liverpool Airport railway station or light rail stop has been proposed for decades but has not happened because there is not enough demand to justify spending the money. Liverpool South Parkway bus link provides a link and frankly the airport does not compare with Manchester, Birmingham, Stansted, Gatwick or Heathrow.
 

8A Rail

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A Liverpool Airport railway station or light rail stop has been proposed for decades but has not happened because there is not enough demand to justify spending the money. Liverpool South Parkway bus link provides a link and frankly the airport does not compare with Manchester, Birmingham, Stansted, Gatwick or Heathrow.
Who said it did compare with those airports? We all agree it does not so there is no issue eh so why bring it up?
 

fowler9

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Look guys I don't just live in Liverpool I live right by West Allerton Station and take the bus every day down to an office call the Matchworks right by the New Mersey Retail Park (Where they have just built a new and very large Multiplex Cinema which isn't even open yet). One thing I can assure you is that there really is a lot in the way of building an overground rail connection of any form to the airport, be that light or heavy rail. There really is a hell of a lot in between the Merseyrail Northern Line, the WCML and the airport. All I can suggest is next time you are in the area get off the train at South Parkway and get on an 86A bus to the airport, have a look around and then tell me that after looking on Google Maps you think it wouldn't take much to put a railway line through there. No I'm not being negative and yes anything is possible but actually have a look around instead of just looking at maps. It is not happening.
 

fowler9

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A possible airport alignment? New rising curve from Parkway onto WCML, Elevated to cross the Garston freight access line (with opportunity for grade separated junction to additional Merseyrail branch towards Speke, Ditton, Widnes South, then skirting the shopping centre (with possible additional station), along and above over Estuary Blvd central reservation. No significant demolition required.

Have you ever visited the area mate? This is real fantasy realm stuff. I am in this area every day (And it is a very crowded and small area) and you are not getting heavy rail through there. Where does this rising curve go for starters? Your rising curve appears to start right behind the flat my dad grew up in on Highbank Drive. I swear if you had seen the area you would have thought twice.
 
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Chester1

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Who said it did compare with those airports? We all agree it does not so there is no issue eh so why bring it up?

The importance of the airport is extremely relevant to the nature of public transport link it justifies. A bus from the nearest station is the right level for Liverpool Airport.
 

MarkyT

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Have you ever visited the area mate? This is real fantasy realm stuff. I am in this area every day (And it is a very crowded and small area) and you are not getting heavy rail through there. Where does this rising curve go for starters? Your rising curve appears to start right behind the flat my dad grew up in on Highbank Drive. I swear if you had seen the area you would have thought twice.

I confess to not knowing the area well at all apart from passing through en route to Lime Street, so I bow to you local knowledge! That's why why I inserted the question mark. I envisaged closing the straight on route to Hunts Cross to make room for my incline up to the WCML, and there wouldn't be a junction at the point it joins that alignment either, with the west pair slewed over from the south end of the platforms at Parkway and the east pair becoming dedicated to Warrington trains, clearly with some further changes approaching Edge Hill to sort trains out for the final approaches to the city centre. Simplifying junctions in the area might also allow cost effective lengthening of the platforms at Parkway.
 

8A Rail

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The importance of the airport is extremely relevant to the nature of public transport link it justifies. A bus from the nearest station is the right level for Liverpool Airport.
Yes but still no relevance in making comparsions with the other airports mentioned - passengers figures / flights alone for those airports dont compare by miles with LJL Airport.

The counter argument would be improved transport links would benefit the airport which in consequence increase usage for the airlines and may be expansion. However, in respect of LJL as neither the will or definitely no funds available then no rail expansion of any sort will reach the airport.

Personally, if using the airport, I travel by car as any alternatives are not simply viable either in cost or time.
 

Gareth

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It'd be nice to know what the golden passenger level number is for Liverpool to be "at that level". Krakow has a rail link and that's as similar size to Liverpool. In fact, it was quite a bit smaller till relatively recently (increased 18% in the last year, pretty impressive).

There are other factors other than passenger numbers too, such as the feasibility & cost of the infrastructure and whether non-airport passengers may find it useful. On that latter point, Liverpool would benefit from a swathe of the fairly densely populated Speke estate being able to use it as an alternative to the rather slow 86A & 82 buses to get into the centre. In fact, it would probably be mostly local traffic but linking the airport would certainly be a delicious bonus.

How you would go about it is another thing. I've read many different ideas how to do it, all with their advantages and drawbacks. One possibility could be a connection to the WCML east of the Speke estate, going around the perimeter and finishing on Hale Road, maybe near the foot of Western Avenue. This would allow direct services from Lime Street with interchange at South Parkway for Merseyrail & the CLC. It could pick up West Allerton & Mossley Hill too, perhaps increasing service frequency at those stations. It could also allow direct services from the other direction from Crewe or Chester. A big drawback would be not being able to have direct services from the Warrington/Manchester area. Also, going round the eastern flank of the Speke estate would be a bit round-the-houses but I would imagine still competitive.

Another option (and one Merseytravel has considered) is a tram-train option. It would go down the WCML and then go onto a tramway after South Parkway. I'm not quite sure how the alignment would be achieved between South Parkway & Speke Boulevard but beyond, Speke Hall Avenue is a wide dual carriage way with a large median. You could slot a light rail line down one side. You could probably keep all the lanes of the existing dual carriageway by narrowing the median. This may well be cheaper than the heavy rail option and it would be a more direct route than going round the back of the estate. There would also be scope for an intermediate station on the light rail section near Speke Boulevard. It'd probably be a dedicated 'metro' line into Liverpool and so no direct services to other towns and cities but there'd be interchange options at South Parkway & Lime Street.

Connecting it to Merseyrail is slightly tougher as the line doesn't pass as close as the WCML. Like I said up thread, a tunnel under Woodend Avenue would be optimal but probably expensive. Nonetheless, having the airport as a southerly destination on the Northern Line would add balance to the top-heavy configuration of the existing line. Merseyrail would allow interchange for regional passengers at South Parkway but those coming in on the Chat Moss would have to get from Lime Street to Central.

I've seen other people argue for captive people mover type solutions going back and forth between South Parkway and the airport. The problem with this is that it offers no direct journeys as everyone would have to change at South Parkway. This would make it less attractive and would entice less Speke folk to use it to get into town rather than just use the bus. Also, those coming in from the Chat Moss route would have to change onto another train towards South Parkway and then onto the people mover. A bespoke people mover probably wouldn't be as good value for money either and would have specific maintenance requirements.

I would think out of those options that the tram-train would quite possibly come out on top (especially as it's the option Merseytravel have considered) but the struggles in South Yorkshire don't inspire confidence.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Tram-train into Lime St is a very interesting option. Would it be high-floor, or would it become the only service serving Mossley Hill and West Allerton so these could get low platforms for it (and a low section at South Parkway?)

I must admit I don't understand why tram-train is proving so difficult in SY. It's surely just a low-floor dual-power[1] EMU - not exactly hard to come by in Europe - Stadler would quite happily build something suitable, being basically a Swiss narrow gauge EMU on standard gauge bogies with some added skirting.

[1] I'm assuming you'd never get away with 25kV above a public road :)
 
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Gareth

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I assume they were proposing a high platform scheme. Merseytravel's idea was to use the Wapping Tunnel from Edge Hill. Theoretically, you could indeed use low floor trams (provided Mossley Hill & West Allerton were converted). Going back further, one of the options considered for Merseytram Line 3 (which was to go to the airport) was to run on the rail alignment via West Allerton & Mossley Hill. Heading inbound, it would've left the rail line near Wavertree Road to join Line 2 on the street level into town. There was no mention of tram-trains back then so I assume the plan was to convert the western two tracks to proper tramway. Also, in contrast with Metrolink, Merseytram was to be low floor, so West Allerton & Mossley Hill would've needed their platforms lowering (or the track bed made higher), unless the trams were to just pass these stations but I find that implausible.

I was personally thinking of a high floor tram-train that went from Lime Street to South Parkway and then went on a tramway to the airport. Bar maybe some crossings on the tram section, it would be wholly segregated from road traffic and to a muggle just appear to be an ordinary train service. You'd sacrifice the penetration into the city centre that the Wapping Tunnel or Merseytram street alignment could offer but it would be a faster service and you wouldn't need to convert the rail stations. Additionally, you'd allow a direct change with Chat Moss services at Lime Street (and maybe Edge Hill).
 
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fowler9

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I think that the station at Krakow airport is at the end of a very short spur off an existing railway line (Correct me if I am wrong). A rail link around the east end of the Speke estate In Liverpool would possibly be doable although there are sidings for Fords which are in the way and also a very busy trunk road which is gaining height just as soon as you would be wanting to branch off. Some steep gradients and sharp turns would be needed, it would need to be some kind of tram train that could cope with it. Forget the Northern Line joining up with the WCML on the south side, you would have to knock down most of the estate around Highbank Drive. On the North side cutting would be made climbing up to the WCML through a load of industrial property and then either cross the WCML on the level or it would have to climb further on a flying junction to the slow lines. It would be eye wateringly expensive for an airport that has limited growth prospects, there really is only so much more the airport is going to grow without building in to the river and as much as it sticks in the throat, Manchester Airport is just down the road.
 
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