First Group: General Discussion

[TheGrandWazoo]

First sacked the whole Bury engineering team! :roll: You would have thought there would have moved them over to the Bolton since there still have the same amount of buses just all in once place..

No wonder the rumors are riff if the people in control of Manchester are muppet.

Canteens are always rife with rumours.

Iirc, it was nailed on that Musselburgh was being sold imminently. It only happened three years later. Similarly, Bury was rumoured to be sold to Stagecoach.

Conversely, the sale of Plymouth came out of the blue (everyone just expected closure), no one suggested WCM to buy Borders, and the sale of London was also done very discreetly.

I'd be very surprised if there are recognisable RATP people being spotted riding around with a big clipboard making notes.

 

[Volvodart]

This has also been posted on dartslf. Sounds like the sort of stuff from an overly fertile imagination....

I am sure this has been posted before a while ago. It is probably the same person that is doing it.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Someone on another forum while also a Facebook post which mentioned that Bolton would be taken over by Stagecoach while Queens Road, Rusholme and Oldham would be RATP.
Sam

Is that by any chance the same person who claims the Manchester artics are all to move to Aberdeen and that they were going to preserve 10035 or 36? Sounds like BS if you ask me.

 

[Kahuna47]

No wonder the rumors are riff if the people in control of Manchester are muppet.

You are quite correct, sir! The upper management don't give a stuff now, presumably because they know whats in the post...

I'd be very surprised if there are recognisable RATP people being spotted riding around with a big clipboard making notes.

The RATP appears to be a rumour (like you said, the canteens are full of rumours - often worse than a bunch of old ladies!) but I've pearsonally seen Stagecoach staff ride a full route, dart back over the other side then do the same route for the return.

For the record, Transdev and Arriva have been thrown about as potential buyers. Rosso was even on the list of people buying Bury at one point!

Is that by any chance the same person who claims the Manchester artics are all to move to Aberdeen and that they were going to preserve 10035 or 36? Sounds like BS if you ask me.

The state of the bendies now they'll never make it to the depot gates under their own steam, never mind to Aberdeen. The problem is they are aren't the traditional bus of choice to what First usually have so no bugger knows how to maintain them!

K

 

[smtglasgow]

Good to see Glasgow finally moving towards some kind of branding – saw an X11 with the gold front this morning. I was down at UEA in Norwich last week and was pleasantly surprised by how smart the city fleet looks – and good publicity too. The blue, green and red colour fronts look good (drawing a veil over the yellow), and the whole operation seems to have lost the run-down, slightly desperate air it had a few years ago.

In Glasgow, the buses which didn’t receive the Simplicity branding have been running around with nothing to identify them apart from the First
Glasgow/First Lanarkshire tag over the passenger doors. Why spend money on new vehicles on say the 240 or 267 then run them around anonymously – the 267 streetlites have been in service over 3 years in this minimalist style.

Something needs to be done to inject some life into the Glasgow operation. If they start branding the main city routes, it will be interesting to see which ones get done first. New (or newer) stock must be on the agenda in the next 18 months, so it might be telling to see which routes don’t get branded straight away.

‘The One’ could probably do with a review. It must be one of their biggest earners, but it is a complicated operation with the 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E. First Glasgow love a suffix!. The corridor is probably over-bused off-peak, but the peak-time loads (especially in the mornings) are astonishing – crush loaded.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Good to see Glasgow finally moving towards some kind of branding – saw an X11 with the gold front this morning. I was down at UEA in Norwich last week and was pleasantly surprised by how smart the city fleet looks – and good publicity too. The blue, green and red colour fronts look good (drawing a veil over the yellow), and the whole operation seems to have lost the run-down, slightly desperate air it had a few years ago.

Generally FEC has improved a lot, they're had new management and operations staff in the last few years which has brought new energy to the business especially in Norwich and in Ipswich.

FEC in Ipswich used to be a mess compared to Ipswich Buses but in the last 12-18 months FEC has become generally the better operator.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Someone on another forum while also a Facebook post which mentioned that Bolton would be taken over by Stagecoach while Queens Road, Rusholme and Oldham would be RATP.
Sam

I'd rather see Stagecoach take over the 184 between Manchester and Huddersfield, now that would be very interesting. As your bound to see the Yorkshire side wave the thing past as FirstDay's won't be valid on it.

 

[Blackpudding]

Generally FEC has improved a lot, they're had new management and operations staff in the last few years which has brought new energy to the business especially in Norwich and in Ipswich.

FEC in Ipswich used to be a mess compared to Ipswich Buses but in the last 12-18 months FEC has become generally the better operator.

You are quite correct, sir! The upper management don't give a stuff now, presumably because they know whats in the post

Two interesting and divergent comments. My personal view is that for whatever reason Manchester seem to have lost any energy they had a few years ago. It's the attention to detail that is missing at Manchester. Fleet presentation is poor and inconsistent - the original hybrid vehicles were repainted out of silver and pink about 18 months ago - apart from four which still retain the original livery. Why not finish what was started? When the Scania artics were being operated by Bolton they didn't look as though the exterior had been washed once, three months after they had transferred from Bury. Imagine what they looked like! More than a couple of years ago they put branding onto circa half a dozen vehicles operating the 471 (Bolton to Rochdale) except that the intermediate calling points were out of order and on a trip of circa 12 miles why show two points that were within 1/2 mile of each other? To this day the same branding still remains in place.

Small things in themselves but they make me wonder if they ever gave 'a stuff'?

 

[overthewater]

Ignore

 

[F Great Eastern]

The presentation, interiors and general state of the vehicles in Ipswich used to be a disgrace, the fleet looked very unloved inside and out and was very run down and tired looking like it'd had no TLC for a long long time and the fleet was getting on quite a bit as well, the bus station facilities and information provision was crap as well.

What's happened when the management changed was a lot of the knackered vehicles were scrapped or transfered out a batch of approaching mid life vehicles came in, everything got a deep clean, repainted, refurbished inside with leather seating and Wifi added and a new cleaning regime was set-up. A new office was built at the bus station in Ipswich and communications improved dramatically.

Ipswich hasn't seen any brand new vehicles for close on 10 years, but has shown that you don't need them necessarily to vastly improve the operations.

 

[mic]

Two interesting and divergent comments. My personal view is that for whatever reason Manchester seem to have lost any energy they had a few years ago. It's the attention to detail that is missing at Manchester. Fleet presentation is poor and inconsistent - the original hybrid vehicles were repainted out of silver and pink about 18 months ago - apart from four which still retain the original livery. Why not finish what was started? When the Scania artics were being operated by Bolton they didn't look as though the exterior had been washed once, three months after they had transferred from Bury. Imagine what they looked like! More than a couple of years ago they put branding onto circa half a dozen vehicles operating the 471 (Bolton to Rochdale) except that the intermediate calling points were out of order and on a trip of circa 12 miles why show two points that were within 1/2 mile of each other? To this day the same branding still remains in place.

Small things in themselves but they make me wonder if they ever gave 'a stuff'?

only 1 bus still has 471 route branding now been 37391 at Bolton other 2 had it removed 37392/93 based at Queens Rd

 

[KendalKing]

No wonder the rumors are riff if the people in control of Manchester are muppet.

The manager in charge, at First Manchester, is an ex Stagecoach Manager. No sooner had he took charge, and it was announced that Bury & Tameside depots were to be closed.

 

[KendalKing]

but I've pearsonally seen Stagecoach staff ride a full route, dart back over the other side then do the same route for the return.

K

I too have seen Stagecoach personal riding around on First buses, in the Manchester area, over the last couple of months, when I have been visiting family. I have even seen Stagecoach buses in Heywood!

 

[route101]

Good to see Glasgow finally moving towards some kind of branding – saw an X11 with the gold front this morning. I was down at UEA in Norwich last week and was pleasantly surprised by how smart the city fleet looks – and good publicity too. The blue, green and red colour fronts look good (drawing a veil over the yellow), and the whole operation seems to have lost the run-down, slightly desperate air it had a few years ago.

In Glasgow, the buses which didn’t receive the Simplicity branding have been running around with nothing to identify them apart from the First
Glasgow/First Lanarkshire tag over the passenger doors. Why spend money on new vehicles on say the 240 or 267 then run them around anonymously – the 267 streetlites have been in service over 3 years in this minimalist style.

Something needs to be done to inject some life into the Glasgow operation. If they start branding the main city routes, it will be interesting to see which ones get done first. New (or newer) stock must be on the agenda in the next 18 months, so it might be telling to see which routes don’t get branded straight away.

‘The One’ could probably do with a review. It must be one of their biggest earners, but it is a complicated operation with the 1, 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 1E. First Glasgow love a suffix!. The corridor is probably over-bused off-peak, but the peak-time loads (especially in the mornings) are astonishing – crush loaded.

Glasgow operation is bit stagnant , last new buses were airport buses . The Glasgow routes were route branded in the early first days , the 6 when the e400s were delivered had 66 branding . The new 65 plate e400s have been taking off the 4 , 75 and 5 and onto the ex cumby and some blantyre express routes .
Some buses do have First Lanarkshire branding but theyve not done it to all Blantyre/ Overtown stock .
The core service One to Scotstoun must be the most freq route . They should make the network more consistent instead of focusing on the one and x routes . Some simplicity routes like the 10 are down to every 15 minutes .
Dont think theres any new buses on the horizon for Glasgow

 

[GaryMcEwan]

All this re-branding of the Xpress services definitely has Andrew Jarvis written all over it.

Glasgow just needs to get the rest of its normal routes sorted out and invest in it's ageing fleet. Blantyre's 53 plated B7TL's are well past their best and the tat they fling on the ex parkhead routes (primarily the 46 and 64/65) is enough to rattle your brain...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The manager in charge, at First Manchester, is an ex Stagecoach Manager. No sooner had he took charge, and it was announced that Bury & Tameside depots were to be closed.

I don't see that anything can be drawn from that. The bus industry is massively incestuous: the MD of West Yorkshire was at RATP and Go Ahead, whilst the MD of South West is also ex Go Ahead. The Midlands MD is ex Go Ahead, Arriva and Transdev whilst West of England is ex Stagecoach (and First before that). People in the industry move around and there's nothing suspicious in it.

As for closing depots, if you've got spare capacity in a small geographical area then it makes sense. Especially with Bury being a site that was of commercial interest, and a large expensive covered facility. As per the Rotherham closure, that site must've cost a fortune in rates and utilities.

 

[route101]

All this re-branding of the Xpress services definitely has Andrew Jarvis written all over it.

Glasgow just needs to get the rest of its normal routes sorted out and invest in it's ageing fleet. Blantyre's 53 plated B7TL's are well past their best and the tat they fling on the ex parkhead routes (primarily the 46 and 64/65) is enough to rattle your brain...

The 18 could do with new buses indeed , least its mostly decker . The 64 and 65 are them scannys also found on the 7 , horrible buses .

 

[GaryMcEwan]

The 18 could do with new buses indeed , least its mostly decker . The 64 and 65 are them scannys also found on the 7 , horrible buses .

It's the B7 toilet boxes that are on the 64 and 65. Occasionally you'll get a Scania on it...

 

[christopherrfc]

first glasgow 9/9a route branding

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mse06...iLb-YrhbX3-YrhaiG-Yrh8Vw-XqwenG-Yrh64E-Yrh4Sw

 

[bussnapperwm]

first glasgow 9/9a route branding

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mse06...iLb-YrhbX3-YrhaiG-Yrh8Vw-XqwenG-Yrh64E-Yrh4Sw

It would seem that First in the Potteries have started everywhere every other first operating company follow suit with the NXWM style front on top of First livery

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It would seem that First in the Potteries have started everywhere every other first operating company follow suit with the NXWM style front on top of First livery

Arguably, that style of livery application of a diagonal front originated with Midland Fox in the mid 80s and was then used in different colour schemes https://www.flickr.com/photos/timthemix/8661563187

 

[Robertj21a]

It would seem that First in the Potteries have started everywhere every other first operating company follow suit with the NXWM style front on top of First livery

The fuchsia front is standard livery for all of First Midlands - Leicester, Worcester and Potteries.

 

[DragonEast]

Generally FEC has improved a lot, they're had new management and operations staff in the last few years which has brought new energy to the business especially in Norwich and in Ipswich.

FEC in Ipswich used to be a mess compared to Ipswich Buses but in the last 12-18 months FEC has become generally the better operator.

FEC Ipswich are a focussed operation - mostly inter-urbans in the housing growth corridors. I suspect a good place to be. And kudos to the management, but I suspect it does make the job easier. Ipswich Buses, together with First Essex over the border, are larger and more disparate operations, Ipswich taking over rural operators and Essex having clung on to much more of their former network (in both cases what for is the pertinent question, in both a dubious benefit) - and the operations are much more of a curate's egg. Too much on their plate. The larger (and focussed) Norwich is heading in the right direction but it isn't all plain sailing either.

It's the problem I have too with the national management (if that's what it is) of First Bus - what actually is their vision for the future UK First Bus? It rather looks to me like they say to local management, you tell us, and we'll tell you whether we like it or not. Result, chaos.

However it seems Essex are getting through MDs like I do hot dinners. It seems the FEC MD (who I thought was the former regional commercial bod anyway) is the latest, so perhaps we can put all this superhuman stuff to the test? I think the last one's wheeze was that putting drivers in ties was the magic wand for customer service. It wasn't.

 

[F Great Eastern]

FEC Ipswich are a focussed operation - mostly inter-urbans in the housing growth corridors. I suspect a good place to be. And kudos to the management, but I suspect it does make the job easier. Ipswich Buses, together with First Essex over the border, are larger and more disparate operations, Ipswich taking over rural operators and Essex having clung on to much more of their former network (in both cases what for is the pertinent question, in both a dubious benefit) - and the operations are much more of a curate's egg. Too much on their plate. The larger (and focussed) Norwich is heading in the right direction but it isn't all plain sailing either.

You would be surprised - laps being dropped on a regular basis, buses that looked like they hadn't been cleaned for months inside or out, low staff morale, interior defects that were allowed to fester, rattling on every single bus, bells that did not work, same buses breaking down again and again, no informtion during service disruption, lack of customer focus, many different liveries many with missing elements, seats with tears on them.

If you look at the job they did with the new park and ride vehicles, there is no way that the old FEC under the old management would have turned out vehicles in a livery and to a standard of that it would have been a half hearted effort like the previous FEC Park and ride effort.

I agree that Ipswich is not the most taxing regime however - but the transformation still has been very noticeable from what it used to be, Ipswich Buses used to be a great example of how to run a bus company but they now ressemble FEC Ipswich a few years ago when it was at it's worst although there is recent reason to believe that IB may now be starting to right some of their issues.

 

[overthewater]

If Ipswich can do it why can the first of First or even parts of Stagecoach do this? We all know buses have to life of around 15 years at least but if there not looked after then you have no chance. I always believe we should have proper refurb around 7 years old.

 

[F Great Eastern]

If Ipswich can do it why can the first of First or even parts of Stagecoach do this? We all know buses have to life of around 15 years at least but if there not looked after then you have no chance. I always believe we should have proper refurb around 7 years old.

Their last brand new vehicles were in 2008 and apart from the Park and Ride Enviro 300s they have no vehicles newer than 2009 with most of the vehicles hailing from 2003-2005, yet despite the fact they don't have a really young fleet they are spotless inside and out more often than not which a lot of companies could learn a lot from.

Some of it is down to personel, there are people in the company who live and breathe the industry and take a real pride in their work to make it the best they can be and don't just see it as a job but a labour of love and are effectively getting paid to work in an industry that they are interested in.

Other times and in other parts they see it just as a job and a way to earn some money and have no real connection with the industry and wouldn't be seen on a bus themselves if they didn't work in the industry, they have no real pride in their work and just want to tick a few boxes and make sure they get paid.

 

[route101]

It's the B7 toilet boxes that are on the 64 and 65. Occasionally you'll get a Scania on it...

Yeah couldnt mind that type of bus .I used to loath of one them turned up on the 6 .

 

[route101]

first glasgow 9/9a route branding

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mse06...iLb-YrhbX3-YrhaiG-Yrh8Vw-XqwenG-Yrh64E-Yrh4Sw

Goes up against McGills 38

 

[DragonEast]

You would be surprised - laps being dropped on a regular basis, buses that looked like they hadn't been cleaned for months inside or out, low staff morale, interior defects that were allowed to fester, rattling on every single bus, bells that did not work, same buses breaking down again and again, no informtion during service disruption, lack of customer focus, many different liveries many with missing elements, seats with tears on them.

If you look at the job they did with the new park and ride vehicles, there is no way that the old FEC under the old management would have turned out vehicles in a livery and to a standard of that it would have been a half hearted effort like the previous FEC Park and ride effort.

I agree that Ipswich is not the most taxing regime however - but the transformation still has been very noticeable from what it used to be, Ipswich Buses used to be a great example of how to run a bus company but they now ressemble FEC Ipswich a few years ago when it was at it's worst although there is recent reason to believe that IB may now be starting to right some of their issues.

I agree, with just a couple of caveats: I gather Chris Speed is homegrown, an ex-GYT driver (I think) and their MD a long-term FEx/ENOC man, but many middle-management seem still to be the same people as I recall from the old ECOC days, who have brought forth this near-miraculous - I do call it that - transformation! What I don't understand is that their cousins in First Essex have announced many of the same initiatives down the years, and apart from the odd bit here and there from time to time we've yet to see any overall improvement, despite the investment they've had in both buses and new depots. Why?

Surely it can't all be the fault of the ex-First London MD they had for a time, who seemed to have thought he'd try to make them into a mini-London Transport with nothing like the resources, and perhaps therefore the predictable chaos?

 

[Robertj21a]

.

Some of it is down to personel, there are people in the company who live and breathe the industry and take a real pride in their work to make it the best they can be and don't just see it as a job but a labour of love and are effectively getting paid to work in an industry that they are interested in.

.

I would suggest that a vast part of the success of any bus company is down to a few key personnel. It's difficult to think of any successful bus operation which hasn't got there through the hard work, and commitment, of specific individuals.
With good management and leadership, everyone else is usually more committed to providing better co-operation, customer service etc