Signalling costs

[sharkfin]

Hi everyone

I am trying to see if I can find out how much signalling and re-signalling work costs for an assignment I'm doing. I have tried to find out prices per km for traditional signalling and for ERTMS to evaluate the difference.

Any suggestions or help appreciated

 

[Tio Terry]

Hi everyone

I am trying to see if I can find out how much signalling and re-signalling work costs for an assignment I'm doing. I have tried to find out prices per km for traditional signalling and for ERTMS to evaluate the difference.

Any suggestions or help appreciated

ERTMS in the UK is very much in it's infancy. Whilst there are projects in progress on both the East Coast and Great Western lines there are emerging costs rather than hard nosed evidence of cost. I think you are going to struggle with getting the kind of costings you seek.

 

[sharkfin]

ERTMS in the UK is very much in it's infancy. Whilst there are projects in progress on both the East Coast and Great Western lines there are emerging costs rather than hard nosed evidence of cost. I think you are going to struggle with getting the kind of costings you seek.

You are right I have tried to see if there has been any estimated costs but to no avail.
I am struggling to find costs for traditional signalling installation per mile of track, which would have given me some indication of a cost that ERTMS would need to beat but no joy so far.

 

[MarkyT]

Hi everyone

I am trying to see if I can find out how much signalling and re-signalling work costs for an assignment I'm doing. I have tried to find out prices per km for traditional signalling and for ERTMS to evaluate the difference.

Any suggestions or help appreciated

When I was at NR they had a high level ballpark estimating methodology based on SEUs (Signalling Equivalent Units) which is still in use today I understand. For a full resignalling, including all external equipment, interlockings and control centre, each point end or signal counts as 1 SEU (no matter how many aspects or route indicators) so the system captures the average complexity and capacity of a particular signalling scheme unlike old ballpark methods based on single track miles or kilometers. Clearly a double track signalled with 10km long signal sections is considerably less complex and thus cheaper than the same line with a 3 aspect every 1km. Other partial renewals such say a remote control telemetry system for a particular interlocking are estimated at a particular percentage of the SEU total for the interlocking. Renewals engineers keep SEU counts on record for all existing installations so a notional value can be assigned and workloads leveled. I've no idea what the price of an SEU is typically today, but around 10 years ago they were working on a target of about £250k/SEU.

 

[MarkyT]

I think the ERTMS pilot scheme on Cambrian lines turned out much more expensive than expected and far more than an equivalent scheme using the latest modular colour light signalling with axle counters for the same SEUs would have cost. Part of this was because it was a pilot scheme, therefore carrying a larger overhead establishing new working methods and standards, but the technology also demands many additional tasks and costs in collecting and maintaining infratructure data, changing speed signage to km/h, training, as well as a need for complete coverage by a reliable radio system, which is more difficult in a hilly rural area using GSM-R technology than using the old RETB radio.

 

[The Planner]

Are we still assuming 250-300k per SEU still these days?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

For what it's worth, the ETCS resignalling of the GW route between Paddington and Reading (36 route miles of complex 4-track route) is quoted at £79m (contracted to Alstom).
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...h=b2cb242381d34b4adf7d6932e4b14241&sword_list[]=alstom&sword_list[]=paddington&no_cache=1

I thought the CP5 target for the average cost of SEUs was £100K, for the new modular signalling systems (currently going in in North Wales).
No idea how they are progressing though.
There hasn't been a trouble-free installation yet.

 

[Railsigns]

each point end or signal counts as 1 SEU (no matter how many aspects or route indicators)

Some signals count as 2 SEUs (a main signal with an associated position light).

 

[Bald Rick]

Some signals count as 2 SEUs (a main signal with an associated position light).

Two seperate controls - two signals.

 

[Bald Rick]

The costs of 'resignalling' can vary considerably. This depends on many factors, including:

the density of service (and thus signals)
complexity of network, eg provision of bidi
presence of level crossings
presence of electrification (esp DC)
quantity of Civils works needed for cable routes, equipment rooms, platform extensions etc
amount of associated trackwork
area in the country (Scottish signalling testers are cheaper)
Site access arrangements
possession availability for installation, testing and commissioning
Quantity of driver training required

For full resignalling, ie replacement of all signals, interlockings, control equipment and telecoms equipment, the average cost per SEU can vary 50% either side of the average. Cost per km is almost meaningless - it cost much more to do the Thameslink core (not including ETCS) than it did to do Ipswich - Lowestoft.

 

[Railsigns]

Two seperate [sic] controls - two signals.

One signal.

 

[Bald Rick]

One signal.

Not for an SEU count!

 

[edwin_m]

The rail regulator used to publish target costs per SEU as part of their benchmarking of Network Rail's costs. It's probably worth digging into their rather Byzantine website to see if they still do.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Irrespective of what the regulator might guess at, a quoted SEU is currently about £190k, so with uplift for non-SEU associated items that's about £285k, so actually nearer £800k once all the below the line percentages are added.

 

[Olaf]

Hi everyone

I am trying to see if I can find out how much signalling and re-signalling work costs for an assignment I'm doing. I have tried to find out prices per km for traditional signalling and for ERTMS to evaluate the difference.

Any suggestions or help appreciated

You could look at the Danish roll-out; project is in full swing with details available on costs, and the recent adjustments in time-scales and costs due to the 'documentation' issues. Start with search on Banedanmark. You will then need to do cost adjustments on baseline comparisons around systems and supplier costs in the respective markets and for 2017 figures.