New CAF and Bombardier stock for West Midlands Trains

[12guard4]

Rugeley will be electrified next year so that's less DMUs required.

Running a 10 car north of Northampton might be problematic at the majority of stations due to platform length

 

[Bletchleyite]

Running a 10 car north of Northampton might be problematic at the majority of stations due to platform length

I think the intention is 8.350 on the Crewes and 5.<new EMU> on the Liverpools and I guess the new Brum-Crewe via Stoke service. The rest of the new EMUs would I guess be darn Sarf.

 

[Domh245]

Sorry...I'd have proposed IC FLIRTs, probably 8-section, maybe 10-section, for the WCML semifasts and 350s on the commuter services.

I'd guessed as much, but given that this isn't an IC style operator (3rd tier so to speak once HS2 opens), it makes more sense to optimise the new fleet for the high commuter loadings, than to use the 350s.

Aren't the 5-cars going to work doubled up?

I expect that they will, but there are 30 of them, compared to the 60 10 car units. The options then are to force 2/3rds of driving cars to have unnecessary corridor connections, or to keep all units without and just accept the impracticality of having 2 discontinuous passenger areas on the doubled up services (which will be less impractical than giving all of the units a more cramped driving cab). There is the possibility of the 5 cars being gangwayed as per these ones, but it'd be a bit of a surprise if they went for this

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd guessed as much, but given that this isn't an IC style operator (3rd tier so to speak once HS2 opens), it makes more sense to optimise the new fleet for the high commuter loadings, than to use the 350s.

True. I'd expect to see these identical in interior to the East Anglia ones, give or take possibly providing a 1st area.

 

[Mordac]

They presently have 72 15x/170 vehicles and are getting 86 vehicles (don't forget the Marston Vale 230s). That's an increase of 14 vehicles. Not as swingeing as the increase in EMU vehicles but still not bad.

Sure, but just doing the vehicle count is a bit misleading. How many dogboxes are diagrammed to work alone? You still need a whole unit to make up for that, you can't just put half a two-car in...

It also doesn't seem to allow for a lot of growth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sure, but just doing the vehicle count is a bit misleading. How many dogboxes are diagrammed to work alone? You still need a whole unit to make up for that, you can't just put half a two-car in...

Oops, I *did* forget the 172s from LO...that's another 8 cars, no?

They have 14 153s. Certainly two of those work alone - the Marston Vale one and the Cov-Nun one, but at least some double up with 170s and I bet not all are out at once. With a gain of 22 vehicles in total (adding the 172s on) there is a bit of a growth there, particularly given the electrification going on.

I'd generally expect to see 4-car replace 3 (some staying 3), 3-car (172) replace 2 and 2 replace 1 (with some 2s staying 2). I wouldn't be surprised if they make a case to keep some 170s if more is needed just as LM did with the small fleet of older EMUs.

 

[JonathanH]

I can see the 170s heading Northern-wards. They do need rather more capacity than they have on the order books.

The other outlet for 170s is, of course, Chiltern to replace 68+Mk3. At least the slam door commuter set will currently have to come off before the end of 2019 and they currently use their 172s to run some longer distance services.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Oops, I *did* forget the 172s from LO...that's another 8 cars, no?

They have 14 153s. Certainly two of those work alone - the Marston Vale one and the Cov-Nun one, but at least some double up with 170s and I bet not all are out at once. With a gain of 22 vehicles in total (adding the 172s on) there is a bit of a growth there, particularly given the electrification going on.

I'd generally expect to see 4-car replace 3 (some staying 3), 3-car (172) replace 2 and 2 replace 1 (with some 2s staying 2). I wouldn't be surprised if they make a case to keep some 170s if more is needed just as LM did with the small fleet of older EMUs.

They only have eight 153s.

 

[class387]

The other outlet for 170s is, of course, Chiltern to replace 68+Mk3. At least the slam door commuter set will currently have to come off before the end of 2019 and they currently use their 172s to run some longer distance services.

Agreed about the Slam-door set and the Oxford/Birmingham 172s, but I can't really see them replacing the silver sets given how much they have invested in them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They only have eight 153s.

Wikilies claims 14. Living up to its name there then. Assuming you're right, that's even better.

 

[Mordac]

Wikilies claims 14. Living up to its name there then. Assuming you're right, that's even better.

Wiki fixed now by the way! Some of us do try to keep it accurate!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wiki fixed now by the way! Some of us do try to keep it accurate!

Ta. I guess the 14 included the 6 they were going to get coming in to replace the 6 150 vehicles which were to go to Northern (which never happened).

 

[Mordac]

Ta. I guess the 14 included the 6 they were going to get coming in to replace the 6 150 vehicles which were to go to Northern (which never happened).

Indeed. Some nutter was claiming it had happened and had deleted the 150s from the table. We managed to get them back in by referencing AbRail (apparently platform 5 isn't a good enough source...) but I'd missed that he'd also added 6 to the 153 total. Thanks again.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Indeed. Some nutter was claiming it had happened and had deleted the 150s from the table. We managed to get them back in by referencing AbRail (apparently platform 5 isn't a good enough source...) but I'd missed that he'd also added 6 to the 153 total. Thanks again.

I've also fixed it on the new West Midlands Trains article.

So that makes it 66 diesel going to 94 once all new units arrive? Should be enough for an increase in services?

 

[Domh245]

Interesting to see that the original article has now disappeared. Did they break an embargo?

 

[centraltrains]

I'm pretty sure they won't be planning to have every unit diagrammed in service or having heavy maintenance done every day, that would be terrible planning. It does kind of seem like you're looking for problems if I'm honest

I didn't feel I was looking for problems. Just very worried about change (as I do for nearly everything). Given this effects my local station I think I am allowed to be a tad concerned, it is after all, one less train in total. I guess it still needs other trains to be used for what that 170s currently cover...

 

[hwl]

Can we assume all of these are 23m vehicles

No because there isn't a 23m option for Aventra just 20.x / 22.x / 24.x m options!
These are 24.x m as per Anglia as Bletchleyite has already pointed out. You can easily tell as they have 5 windows between the doors on the 24m bodies.

 

[hwl]

Interesting to see that the original article has now disappeared. Did they break an embargo?

Probably...

Cached page here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-for-west-midlands-franchise.html?channel=529

Just because they deleted it doesn't meant it has fallen down the back of the internet!

 

[ChrisHogan]

We just need confirmation that the 172/0s and 230s are coming, and what second-hand electric stock is coming for the December 2018 enhancements/extensions. Latter needs about 10 emus.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Whatever happened to "no more DMUs, not now, not ever, honest"?

Cost of electrification and the clearances debacle.

 

[Domh245]

No because there isn't a 23m option for Aventra just 20.x / 22.x / 24.x m options!
These are 24.x m as per Anglia as Bletchleyite has already pointed out. You can easily tell as they have 5 windows between the doors on the 24m bodies.

Bombardier have long been advertising the flexibility of the Aventra platform, you could get 23m long coaches if you ask for it

We just need confirmation that the 172/0s and 230s are coming, and what second-hand electric stock is coming for the December 2018 enhancements/extensions. Latter needs about 10 emus.

There have been some presentations, supposedly given by abellio to selected stakeholders that show that these are in the plan, although I can't find them at the moment

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are ten 350/4s.

 

[samuelmorris]

Pretty much as I expected - the Civity seems to be the only viable DMU product on offer to UK gauges at the moment and the Aventra is a logical follow-on for a similar requirement in the East Anglian franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

Noooooooooooo! Not Civity!!! The images of Northern's Civity have always looked extremely ugly to me.

How about you have your old 150s back and we'll have some more 195s instead.

 

[ChrisHogan]

Bombardier have long been advertising the flexibility of the Aventra platform, you could get 23m long coaches if you ask for it



There have been some presentations, supposedly given by abellio to selected stakeholders that show that these are in the plan, although I can't find them at the moment

But no announcements yet on either. I am sure Shooter will want to make a fuss over the first order for 230s.

 

[northwichcat]

Whatever happened to "no more DMUs, not now, not ever, honest"?

That presumed electrification work like North TPE by 2019.

 

[northwichcat]

So the mass replacement phenomenon has now spread to DMUs under ten years old.

Not really. It'll be a case of West Midlands get brand new and other franchises have to make do with what they release for their DMU requirements. (For the third time!)

 

[MCR247]

I didn't feel I was looking for problems. Just very worried about change (as I do for nearly everything). Given this effects my local station I think I am allowed to be a tad concerned, it is after all, one less train in total. I guess it still needs other trains to be used for what that 170s currently cover...

I'm just not sure how you've come to the conclusion that there will be no spare? The rest of the concerns seemed to follow on from this

 

[absolutelymilk]

Not really. It'll be a case of West Midlands get brand new and other franchises have to make do with what they release for their DMU requirements. (For the third time!)

I think most franchises which have significant DMU usage are either getting new stock or are likely to when their franchise is renewed within the next 3 years?

 

[hwl]

Bombardier have long been advertising the flexibility of the Aventra platform, you could get 23m long coaches if you ask for it

But you would just get a shortened 24m with 1 fewer window per side and 1m extra of Aluminium and internal cladding to stare at as the windows are a standard size. You would also end up paying for a lot of redesign costs so easier to go for one of the standard options as the width is also length dependent. 24m makes far more sense than 23m for the London commuter routes as most are orientated around 240m trains not 230m ones (i.e. 240 = 12x 20m). 22m and 20m make lots of sense for 200m e.g. Crossrail, SWR metro and Southern Metro, 22m for single units and 20m if splitting in the middle. And 20m makes sense for 160m e.g. LO West Anglia and SE' s LCDR routes.