New CAF and Bombardier stock for West Midlands Trains

[Old Hill Bank]

Just to confirm the DMU vehicle count now and future:-

139 2 - 2
150/1 6 - 0
153 8 - 0
170/5 34 - 0
170/6 18 - 0
172/0 0 - 16
172/2 24 - 24
172/3 45 - 45
230 0 - 6
New 0 - 80
Total 137 - 173

 

[northwichcat]

I think most franchises which have significant DMU usage are either getting new stock or are likely to when their franchise is renewed within the next 3 years?

EMT and W&B will probably both need ASAP options e.g. DMUs released by Anglia and TPE , rather than going through procurement options.

The LM 170s might end up being the additional '170s or equivalents' mentioned in the Northern franchise agreement, which would seem very illogical if LM get 195s identical to Northern's.

 

[D365]

Six 230s?

Brain fade.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Six 230s?

3 x 2-car

 

[507021]

Six 230s?

It's number of carriages, rather than units.

 

[12guard4]

3car aventras would have to be 23m or less.

 

[dp21]

3car aventras would have to be 23m or less.

If they're a direct replacement for the 323s then those are already 23m I believe so it would make sense.

 

[12guard4]

If they're a direct replacement for the 323s then those are already 23m I believe so it would make sense.

6 cars wouldn't fit on some stations if they were any longer!

 

[MCR247]

If they're a direct replacement for the 323s then those are already 23m I believe so it would make sense.

6 cars wouldn't fit on some stations if they were any longer!

Good points, so does this mean either platform extensions/SDO or the 3 cars having a different carriage length to the 5 cars?

 

[dp21]

Good points, so does this mean either platform extensions/SDO or the 3 cars having a different carriage length to the 5 cars?

Good question but going from previous examples my guess would be platform extensions/SDO if required over shortening the coach lengths. It would make less financial sense essentially designing two completely different trains.

Likely config will be driving coach - trailer coach - pan coach - trailer coach - driving coach for the 5 cars, then just remove the two trailers for the 3 cars.

However, with distributed traction etc there could well be a few motors on the trailers but that'll all emerge in time.

Equally, I could be WAY wide of the mark but this is just my guess

 

[Kite159]

Pretty much as I expected - the Civity seems to be the only viable DMU product on offer to UK gauges at the moment and the Aventra is a logical follow-on for a similar requirement in the East Anglian franchise.

Hopefully they turn out to be a decent DMU and not something massively underpowered it will make a 170 seem fast.

I can probably see Chiltern doing a deal to swap their 4x 172/1s for 4x 170/5s to give all the 172s to "LM", with the extra 170s changed to be 168s to give a more uniform fleet.

 

[D365]

Good points, so does this mean either platform extensions/SDO or the 3 cars having a different carriage length to the 5 cars?

The latter is likely true - the Class 720 subfleets have different carriage lengths I recall.

Never mind - I did initially suspect this to be false

 

[hwl]

Good question but going from previous examples my guess would be platform extensions/SDO if required over shortening the coach lengths. It would make less financial sense essentially designing two completely different trains.

Likely config will be driving coach - trailer coach - pan coach - trailer coach - driving coach for the 5 cars, then just remove the two trailers for the 3 cars.

However, with distributed traction etc there could well be a few motors on the trailers but that'll all emerge in time.

Equally, I could be WAY wide of the mark but this is just my guess

Completely wide of the mark as Aventra is very distributed traction! The Anglia 5 car design has an Unmotored Driving Car then 3 intermediate motored trailers and a motored Driving car. [DTSLW - MS3 - MS2 - PMS - DMS1]

One of the key design features of Aventra is large integrated power supply boxes containing the traction motor controllers for up to 6 traction motors (usually 4) as well as the auxiliary AC supplies at 415V and 110V and DC supply at 24V. Hence there will often be 2 motor bogies on adjacent vehicles or 3 spread over 2 vehicles. The Pantograph cars have always had 1 motor bogie on every design so far (under the pan and the transformer is at the other end of the car). The leading bogie at each end of Bombardier units is unmotored.
Crossrail 345: 2-Bo + Bo-2 + Bo-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2
LO 710: 2-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-2
Anglia 720 5 car 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2
Anglia 720 10 car 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2 + 2-2 + 2-Bo + Bo-Bo + 2-Bo + Bo-2

 

[hwl]

The latter is likely true - the Class 720 subfleets have different carriage lengths I recall.

No they don't all 24.x metres, the different lengths things was initial misinformation.
Driving cars - 24.47m
intermediate - 24.21m

 

[hwl]

Good points, so does this mean either platform extensions/SDO or the 3 cars having a different carriage length to the 5 cars?

At Greater Anglia a mix of SDO or platform extension depending on circumstances (easy of extension and station usage)

 

[centraltrains]

I'm just not sure how you've come to the conclusion that there will be no spare? The rest of the concerns seemed to follow on from this

Because at the moment it already feels like there are never spear units put on when a problem is, I suppose that in reality it isn't announced when a spear is used elsewhere. To me 15 3-car 172s and 12 2-car 172s seems a small number. I don't really know how many diagrams there are so I'm just making assumptions. In my head, the number seems low and just doesn't feel like its the right number, but with no actual calculations made to show that.

 

[craigybagel]

Article has since been deleted. Did somebody jump the gun on this?

 

[Class172]

Article has since been deleted. Did somebody jump the gun on this?

As another member has pointed out, it doesn't stop it being accessible.

Probably...

Cached page here:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...-for-west-midlands-franchise.html?channel=529

Just because they deleted it doesn't meant it has fallen down the back of the internet!

 

[craigybagel]

As another member has pointed out, it doesn't stop it being accessible.

Ah sorry, I missed that good job!

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I can tell it seems clear that the 3-car Aventras will replace the 323s, but unlike the 150s/153s/170s I haven't seen it written anywhere explicitly that all the 323s are to be withdrawn. Has that been verified?

 

[the sniper]

But you would just get a shortened 24m with 1 fewer window per side and 1m extra of Aluminium and internal cladding to stare at as the windows are a standard size. You would also end up paying for a lot of redesign costs so easier to go for one of the standard options as the width is also length dependent. 24m makes far more sense than 23m for the London commuter routes as most are orientated around 240m trains not 230m ones (i.e. 240 = 12x 20m). 22m and 20m make lots of sense for 200m e.g. Crossrail, SWR metro and Southern Metro, 22m for single units and 20m if splitting in the middle. And 20m makes sense for 160m e.g. LO West Anglia and SE' s LCDR routes.

What solution are they going with for Bournville then? An inconvenient use of SDO for the sake of a few metres or do they think they can just about get away with it as is? If it's the latter, if it's possible at all, it'll be damn tight... I don't know that it'd even be workable in leaf fall, even with new super-duper WSP?

I wonder when the embargo is that has presumably killed that article?

 

[700007]

Railway Magazine has announced an order of new trains for the Midlands this morning.

Diesels will be built by CAF, I imagine this is something to replace some 150s and 153s on Hereford services?

Bombardier to build a lot of new trains to replace the 319s, top ups to the 350 fleet and also for the Chase Line.

I looked through the forum and can't see anything related to this so apologies if this is elsewhere.

 

[Domh245]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/west-midlands-stock.155879/

(& http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-for-west-midlands-franchise.html?channel=529)

 

[XCTurbostar]

I think the linked thread needs re-naming to similar to this one. It is a little confusing having one thread just named “west Midlands stock” and not “CAF and Bombardier announce new train order for the Midlands”

 

[Domh245]

De-Embargoed seemingly. This article from Railway Gazzette includes a render of the CAF DMUs (also Gangwayed) and the fact that 5 car Aventras will be split between outer suburban (29 units) and longer distance layouts (16 units).

 

[XCTurbostar]

Sorry to interrupt, can I suggest a thread rename? “West Midlands stock” doesn’t really explain the topic of the thread. I suggest “CAF and Bombardier announce new train order for the West Midlands franchise”?

 

[hwl]

What solution are they going with for Bournville then? An inconvenient use of SDO for the sake of a few metres or do they think they can just about get away with it as is? If it's the latter, if it's possible at all, it'll be damn tight... I don't know that it'd even be workable in leaf fall, even with new super-duper WSP?

..

SDO can be done per set of doors if balises are used (e.g. Hima-Sella Tracklink3) and also deal with unpredictable stopping.

 

[Bletchleyite]

De-Embargoed seemingly. This article from Railway Gazzette includes a render of the CAF DMUs (also Gangwayed) and the fact that 5 car Aventras will be split between outer suburban (29 units) and longer distance layouts (16 units).

It doesn't mention layouts, just use.

 

[47802]

It doesn't mention layouts, just use.

Did someone send CAF a photo of a 380. Yes will be interesting to see what the difference between 'Outer Suburban' and 'Long Distance' is?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did someone send CAF a photo of a 380

The lack of a cab door droplight is to me a bit of a safety issue (no view of the train after "buzz buzz") unless a certain three letters are rearing their head again.