IEP bandwagon of hate?

[Up_Tilt_390]

It seems to me that while some people don't have a problem with the new Class 800/801 trains as a whole, there are some people out there who have a die hard dislike for them. Their reasons are that they're cramped and uncomfortable with the vibrations and seat designs. However, I read these at a time when the trains weren't even in service yet. It seems to me that some people are just jumping on the bandwagon, and others might just be blinded by their nostalgia goggles with their love of the HST.

By no means is the HST a bad train, in fact I dare say it's the greatest train running today (not my favourite, but more the fact it's still lasted after so many years and has a great legacy and love from passengers), but let's be honest, no way would they last forever. So would you agree that there seems to be a bandwagon of hate with people who just don't like them cause they're replacing the train they so love so much? If you've recently travelled on one of the new trains then let me know your experience and whether these criticisms hold any merit.

 

[_toommm_]

There is a bandwagon of die hard enthusiasts who want everything to be loco hauled or with 1st gen DMU/EMU stock definitely. I for one will be really sad to see the HST go (and the 91 on the ECML), but until I ride on an IEP I can only judge it by it's metaphorical cover.

 

[ash39]

I haven't sampled one yet, but even by looking at the seats I can't see how they will match the comfort of a mk3 or mk4 coach.

However, I'm only an occasional traveller, mostly off-peak. I can appreciate that for the majority they will be an big upgrade. More seats, more redundancy in event of failure, theoretically a much better service overall.

I think I'll grow used to them, but it'll be sad to see the current stock go.

 

[43074]

I was pondering this more generally when I noticed on Facebook an enthusiast describing the new West Midlands fleets as "modern junk", this being three years before they have even entered service! There's definitely a "bandwagon of hate" towards any new stock unless it's loco hauled, some of which may be justified, others much less so, but most of it seems to stem from enthusiasts who just can't accept progress and dislike change. I'm sure some (most?) of it comes from misinformation - I got stuck in a debate with a group suggesting IEPs could only run at 110mph on diesel, and someone else suggested that when on diesel they sounded like Voyagers, neither of which could be further from the truth.

For what it's worth, I tried the IEP the other evening, and whilst I don't think I'll be purchasing rail rovers in order to travel on them as I might for HSTs in Scotland, Chiltern 68s etc, they're really not bad trains - having been very sceptical I was quite impressed, the "hate" towards them is definitely not justified. They're so quiet on diesel power that I was having a conversation with someone and had to listen for the engine noise. Their acceleration is impressive on electric, but the accepted and well known view is that they really need more power on diesel to perform better at higher speeds, although once electrification is more widespread hopefully that should be less of an issue anyway...

 

[XCTurbostar]

Let me start off by saying I have not travelled on an IEP thus far and therefore my views are subjective on the media and images/videos I see posted here.

I appreciate that the railway has to move forward and that the IEPs unlike the HSTs are a move towards the ‘maximum bums on seats’ approach of the future. I just prefer a Mk3 over a diesel powered coach that’s just the way it is for me. I’m not on the bandwagon of hate although I do reserve an amount of dislike for them replacing one of the most iconic trains of this country. It’s a change from the normal HST and I bet the same happened when IC225s partially replaced the HSTs on the ECML and the Voyagers replaced the 47s/86s and HSTs on XC.

I think I’ll like the IEPs more than I’ll expect when I travel on them.

Thanks,
Ross

 

[Pacerpilot]

I'm not trained on IETS yet....I have had a play on the simulator and I can't wait to drive them. As much as I enjoy working HSTs, I won't miss going home absolutely filthy everyday. Black dust in my hair from the A/C and God knows what on my hands from climbing up into the cab. Whatever is flushed out of the loo gets vaporised and sprayed down the train including onto the cab access rails. I wear gloves to get in and out but that doesn't mean everyone else does....and then they touch the cab controls. Looking forward to some peace and quiet in the cab at 100mph+ too

 

[cf111]

They could dispense £50 notes from the hand-dryers in the toilets and people would still despise them because of what they're replacing. I'll withhold my judgement until I get to travel on them however I think they look good from the outside!

 

[D365]

... although I do reserve an amount of dislike for them replacing one of the most iconic trains of this country.

How is that the fault of the 800s in any way?

 

[XCTurbostar]

How is that the fault of the 800s in any way?

It isn’t. I’m just saying that theyve got a pretty tough bar to overcome.

 

[sprinterguy]

I appreciate that the railway has to move forward and that the IEPs unlike the HSTs are a move towards the ‘maximum bums on seats’ approach of the future. I just prefer a Mk3 over a diesel powered coach that’s just the way it is for me. I’m not on the bandwagon of hate although I do reserve an amount of dislike for them replacing one of the most iconic trains of this country. It’s a change from the normal HST and I bet the same happened when IC225s partially replaced the HSTs on the ECML and the Voyagers replaced the 47s/86s and HSTs on XC.

It's worthy of note that the IC225s replaced all but a bare minimum fleet of HSTs that, since privatisation, has been quietly and consistently added to down the years to facilitate additional services: There's certain times in the afternoon at York at least where you could be convinced that electrification never happened, given the plethora of HST sets and other diesel units arriving from north and south.

There was certainly plenty of criticism levelled at the IC225s when they were introduced due to reports of rough riding, and unencouraging plumes of "water" rising from toilets due to pressure differentials as the sets entered tunnels. The Voyagers have encountered enduring criticism partly because they ousted the last major bastion of loco haulage in the UK, but mainly because they are so inadequate compared to the stock they replaced in terms of seating capacity, quiet, quality, and availability of toilets and luggage space. Once they settle down into service, I don't believe that the Great Western IET sets will encounter the same level of vitriol, as 9 or 10-car sets should be primarily operating out of Paddington.

I will, however, greatly miss the atmosphere and inherent expectation of departure that comes with the sound of HST slam doors being swung shut at a major station.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think the dislike is entirely down to what they're replacing. There's been a lot of valid criticism of the procurement process, hence nicknames like "Incredibly Expensive Project" etc...

My take on them is thus (disclaimer- I've yet to travel on one but have used both classic and high-speed services in Europe in the last week so will be banging on about how much better they are than what we have for the next few weeks!):

The procurement does seem flawed, though I don't really have the knowledge to do an analysis of it. The rash of (apparently cheap) new orders does paint the IEP in a less-favourable light though. The bi-mode aspect seems to have been used as an excuse to shelve electrification projects but the execution of those have had their own problems.
The least comfortable parts of my journey to Prague and back were those on the classic UK network on mk4 (out) and mk3 (back) and based on this, I can't imagine that the 800s could be any worse than those. The Frankfurt to Nürnberg legs of my trip were largely not on dedicated HSL but the ICE3 units were smoother than anything in the UK along with a much more comfortable travelling environment.

 

[wls1]

I was certainly sceptical about what they would be like, and after a run on the 1900 to swindon, (unpopular opinion incoming) i would dare say that i prefer them to hsts.

Seats are firm but comfortable and they will loosen after time,
Build quality seemed very good, no rattles or squeaks
Windows are large and very clear
Plugs and the tables are very good too,
No vibrations, was sitting in the carriage with an engine in and noticed no vibrations other than pulling away from stations.

My only real problem with them is the announcements, just too simple and annoying imo.

 

[Dave1987]

There are some on here who are die hard fans who refuse to have a single word of criticism against them. There are others who have a severe dislike of them because they are replacing what they deem to be superior train even though they are nearing half a century old.

The question that I believe has never been truly answered is are these commuter trains or are they long distance intercity trains?

I believe and have always believed that the bi-mode concept is ridiculous and energy wasting. Hitachi produced what the DFT asked for. But I believe that because these will be performing long distance intercity journeys that they represent the downgrading of comfort of UK rail travel. I've read that there is a severe lack of space for large luggage. So are they a commuter train then? Every comment I have read has said the same thing, the seat are very firm. Why? Why don't they have lovely comfortable seats when the public will be spending hours travelling on them?

I think these will be like Marmite. Some will love them, others will hate them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was certainly plenty of criticism levelled at the IC225s when they were introduced due to reports of rough riding

I'll level that at them now, they ride like an absolute cart. Cheap rubbish.

The 800 OTOH looks like a really good quality train. Maybe hard to beat the HST Mk3 with the excellent quality (lighting aside) GWR refurb, but it will definitely knock spots off a Mk4.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I will, however, greatly miss the atmosphere and inherent expectation of departure that comes with the sound of HST slam doors being swung shut at a major station.

The "Teutonic slam" (favourite of much DB stock, old and new) is still there, to be heard at LM stations all the time. It does have a kind of feeling of anticipation, doesn't it?

 

[hassaanhc]

I was certainly sceptical about what they would be like, and after a run on the 1900 to swindon, (unpopular opinion incoming) i would dare say that i prefer them to hsts.

Seats are firm but comfortable and they will loosen after time,
Build quality seemed very good, no rattles or squeaks
Windows are large and very clear
Plugs and the tables are very good too,
No vibrations, was sitting in the carriage with an engine in and noticed no vibrations other than pulling away from stations.

My only real problem with them is the announcements, just too simple and annoying imo.

One thing I've long noticed is that people ignore the vertical height of the HST and loco-hauled Mk3 windows, which actually isn't that much more than on a 390 and starts quite high up too. Only the long sideways length seems to be mentioned usually.

Really looking forward to going on an 800 soon, hopefully later this week

The "Teutonic slam" (favourite of much DB stock, old and new) is still there, to be heard at LM stations all the time. It does have a kind of feeling of anticipation, doesn't it?

I also love the Desiro door slam also encourages people to stand clear of them when squashed near the doors

 

[Malcolmffc]

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[Malcolmffc]

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[Malcolmffc]

There is a bandwagon of die hard enthusiasts who want everything to be loco hauled or with 1st gen DMU/EMU stock definitely.

Preferably running on a reopened country branch line serving a few small villages (the more sparsely populated the better) with the multi million reopening costs justified by it being used as a diversionary route once a decade.

 

[AlterEgo]

I've read that there is a severe lack of space for large luggage.

I'd say there is no more or less space for large luggage than in any other modern train (but I agree that is still an inadequate level). For example, and I have said this elsewhere, the end First Class coach has two wheelchair spaces where the luggage racks ought to be. Fair enough. But they then put a row of seats in a windowless area of the carriage when it would have been more sensible to put a rack there.

By way of consolation, the overhead racks are the biggest I've seen on any British train - no need for anything other than the very biggest cases to go in an upright rack. The overheads can comfortably carry all manner of cabin bags with room to spare.

 

[sprinterguy]

The "Teutonic slam" (favourite of much DB stock, old and new) is still there, to be heard at LM stations all the time.

That's true, though it lacks the interactive element of slam doors: Perhaps I'm a bit weird, but I find that there's something satisfying in personally giving one of those heavy coach doors a good shove back into its aperture with one smooth movement, with that loud clunk and bang at the end that confirms a job well done. No doubt station staff and train crew who have to deal with them day in, day out don't share my enthusiasm, though.

It does have a kind of feeling of anticipation, doesn't it?

There certainly is. In my mind, major stations are always associated with the acrid tang of diesel fumes, the bustle of people in motion, the murmur of a hundred quiet conversations, the gentle rumble of diesel engines at idle and the slam of coach doors. These things are synonymous with the frisson of excitement that accompanies a long distance train journey for me.

Of course, the electrification and introduction of IETs to the GWML dispenses with three of these elements, as the modern fashion is for clinically clean and quiet environs like the showcase London St Pancras is these days. Not that that's at all a bad thing: It's good for one of the primary images that the railway presents to the the public, and I very much enjoy sitting with a pint outside The Betjeman Arms, watching the Eurostars buzz discretely in and out as shafts of sunlight filter through the glistening glass of the Barlow trainshed, as I reminisce about how much of an oil soaked craphole it used to be when High Speed Trains used to sit guzzling fuel beneath that magnificent trainshed ingrained with decades of accumulated grime. The future is bright for London Paddington, though it's already a lot cleaner than St Pancras ever used to be!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The future is bright for London Paddington, though it's already a lot cleaner than St Pancras ever used to be!

Well, it better had be, because at present it stinks of diesel fumes and human faeces. Same as Manchester Piccadilly.

 

[Minilad]

A dislike of something replacing a much loved thing isn't just a railway thing. Some people just don't like change and they certainly don't like change when it involves something they are comfortable with and has been part of the furniture for many years.
Enthusiasts have always done this throughout the years. And likewise there are always people blinded by shiny things and PR guff.
I think a lot of the dislike is because, rightly or wrongly, people see new stuff and assume it's going to be more cramped, less comfortable, more clinical, than what it will be replacing as a lot of modern stock seems to have been. Time will tell wether that is really the case. I won't be rushing to try one out though and if I do need to travel in the areas they operate I will try to get a HST if possible. Not because I don't want to travel on one just that I would like to hang on to the old stuff just a little longer and there will be plenty of time to try them out in the coming years.

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't think the dislike is entirely down to what they're replacing.

It's not necessarily the trains that they replace, but there is a perceived degradation of comfort that new trains often represent. There are some fairly definite criticisms, both quantitative and qualitative that can be levelled at much modern stock compared to the stock that they replace: Number of seats per train, seat comfort, perceived discomfort from the effects of underfloor engines, volume of luggage space. This is a concept that was largely introduced by BR at the time of Sprinterisation, of course, and in fact the HSTs weren't exempt from some of these criticisms when they were first introduced.

The least comfortable parts of my journey to Prague and back were those on the classic UK network on mk4 (out) and mk3 (back) and based on this, I can't imagine that the 800s could be any worse than those.

It is something of a concern when what is often considered some of the best passenger stock in the UK (ride quality of the mark 4s notwithstanding) still falls short of the quaity of rail travel experienced in continental Europe.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is something of a concern when what is often considered some of the best passenger stock in the UK (ride quality of the mark 4s notwithstanding) still falls short of the quaity of rail travel experienced in continental Europe.

Part of that is infrastructure - the standard of track on even the smallest DB branch line is well in excess of that on our mainlines. So coaches with very basic suspension like Silberlinge, Bm235s and the likes ride silky smooth. If you ran one in the UK (were it not for it knocking bits of platform off) it'd ride like a cart too.

 

[sprinterguy]

Well, it better had be, because at present it stinks of diesel fumes and human faeces. Same as Manchester Piccadilly.

I've never noticed the scent of either at Manchester Piccadilly, and I pass through there quite frequently these days. At least a third of the trains under the roof tend to be electric (It should be more really, and was before the railway forgot the ability to perform loco changes), though I appreciate that the station has something of a reputation for accumulations of the latter.

 

[mallard]

The big problem is that the bi-mode capabilities of the 800/802 units are being used as an excuse to cut major modernisation projects, despite the fact that these units cannot match the diesel performance of existing units (e.g. 22x) and key parts of their real-world performance (reliability in passenger service, running costs, maintenance needs) are far from proven. Considering the unmitigated disaster that was the GWR launch run, their "advantages" over existing stock (especially away from the wires) are in serious doubt.

I've no issue whatsoever with the 801s...

 

[sprinterguy]

The big problem is that the bi-mode capabilities of the 800/802 units are being used as an excuse to cut major modernisation projects, despite the fact that these units cannot match the diesel performance of existing units (e.g. 22x) and key parts of their real-world performance (reliability in passenger service, running costs, maintenance needs) are far from proven.

Indeed. While bi-mode capability offers advantages when it comes to "off wires" destinations that would have difficulty justifying electrification in the medium term, just because the trains can run on diesel power shouldn't mean that electrification projects should be abandoned at the earliest convenient opportunity: If you're going to electrify a main line, then do it comprehensively.

 

[mpthomson]

Indeed. While bi-mode capability offers advantages when it comes to "off wires" destinations that would have difficulty justifying electrification in the medium term, just because the trains can run on diesel power shouldn't mean that electrification projects should be abandoned at the earliest convenient opportunity: If you're going to electrify a main line, then do it comprehensively.

It does if the major infrastructure provider (NR) has shown itself utterly incompetent in the project management, costings and delivery of the electrification work it has carried out recently. Once they've got that sorted out (don't ask me how they do that, the expertise is already sat within NR allegedly) then absolutely, revisit electrification, but it just can't carry on the way it is now, it's a huge waste of money and needs to be drawn back to a more manageable level until NR's internal issues are resolved.

 

[jimm]

The big problem is that the bi-mode capabilities of the 800/802 units are being used as an excuse to cut major modernisation projects, despite the fact that these units cannot match the diesel performance of existing units (e.g. 22x) and key parts of their real-world performance (reliability in passenger service, running costs, maintenance needs) are far from proven. Considering the unmitigated disaster that was the GWR launch run, their "advantages" over existing stock (especially away from the wires) are in serious doubt.

Yes, let's criticise these trains for things that they were never designed to do in the first place - and decisions made by a politician with a less-than-inspiring track record in any ministerial post he has held.

They were never intended to have the performance on diesel of a Voyager or a 180, because they were not supposed to be working on diesel power above 100mph in regular operation. For the simple reason that the places the bi-mode capability was designed to come into play, such as the Cotswolds, do not have line speed limits above 100mph. But they can get well beyond that speed with a simple adjustment to the engine management system.

The decision to scrap MML electrification is silly - and will have to be reversed at some point - but however much anyone in Wales may complain, can we really justify wiring Cardiff-Swansea for what would be just one train per hour each way most of the day? Unless and until the politicians can work out what to do about wiring in the Valleys and the linked local routes in South Wales, electrifying the main line west of Cardiff really does not make any kind of sense financially or operationally.

Since when has the reliability in passenger service of any new train been proven after a few days?

Running costs? Probably best not to look at the fuel bill for a Voyager...

Maintenance needs? Hitachi's other UK rolling stock, the 395s, are well-know for their reliability, rather like their trains in Japan and elsewhere. The 800s could still be a pig but there have been no indications that the sets doing all the test running in the UK over a sustained period since 2015 have given any cause for concern.

Go on about that run on Monday from Bristol all you like - the other pair of 800s performed well all day.

Living on a bit of the GWR system that is not electrified and where there are no plans to do so, I can see plenty of advantages of a new bi-mode train over 40+ year old HSTs and the Turbos they will replace on quite a few duties in the Thames Valley and the Cotswolds.