Caledonian Sleeper during HS2 construction: Will it need to move, if so where?

[LNW-GW Joint]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #18 originally in this thread.

There is some talk of diverting the sleepers as a result of fewer long platforms being available.

 

[D365]

There is some talk of diverting the sleepers as a result of fewer long platforms being available.

Is this something different to the Waterloo "ideas" of old?

 

[The Planner]

The sleeper talk has been going on for ages, they will still end up on the Euston Road somewhere.

 

[Chester1]

The sleeper talk has been going on for ages, they will still end up on the Euston Road somewhere.

Id bet the sleeper moves to St Pancras because Euston will be disrupted until after the end of the franchise in 2030. Its a simple change to make that would avoid multiple risks. Kings Cross would require more changes to the route and stops.

 

[MCR247]

Id bet the sleeper moves to St Pancras because Euston will be disrupted until after the end of the franchise in 2030. Its a simple change to make that would avoid multiple risks. Kings Cross would require more changes to the route and stops.

Using what platforms at St Pancras?

 

[The Planner]

International platforms. Yes, there is the issue of the passport controls etc... but if they are serious about it they would find a way.

 

[Chester1]

International platforms. Yes, there is the issue of the passport controls etc... but if they are serious about it they would find a way.

There would be timing issues in the morning but the last Eurostar arrivals and departures are considerably before first boarding on the sleeper. Moving to a new station would create costs but could provide certainty for the rest of the franchise.

 

[DarloRich]

Id bet the sleeper moves to St Pancras because Euston will be disrupted until after the end of the franchise in 2030. Its a simple change to make that would avoid multiple risks. Kings Cross would require more changes to the route and stops.

I doubt it would fit in the EMT platforms at St Pancras. Perhaps the international platforms could be used but that would take some major thinking. Is Kings Cross not a more obvious destination?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt it would fit in the EMT platforms at St Pancras. Perhaps the international platforms could be used but that would take some major thinking. Is Kings Cross not a more obvious destination?

Kings Cross would require it to run as 3 trains rather than 2, though.

 

[DarloRich]

Kings Cross would require it to run as 3 trains rather than 2, though.

As long as the Glasgow one still runs i don't mind that

 

[Mikey C]

International platforms. Yes, there is the issue of the passport controls etc... but if they are serious about it they would find a way.

Perfect for when Scotland becomes independent

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perfect for when Scotland becomes independent

I'd imagine it wouldn't be an issue if CS paid for a full security and immigration search of the secure area each night after their trains had departed. I'd venture that that would probably be cheaper than running a third train all the way to Scotland[1].

And wouldn't arriving/departing from the grandeur of St Pancras be that bit better, particularly for tourists, than the armpit of the Euston platforms?

The interesting question though is which way would it go? Would it switch to diesel throughout and go up the MML and then S&C (or across somehow else to the WCML), or use the NLL somehow?

[1] If a third train was economic, I reckon they may have considered fixed-formation EMUs or bi-modes rather than LHCS.

 

[TheBigD]

Deleted

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Forgive my ignorance but how are the international platforms at St Pancras accessed from anywhere other than HS1??? Can you get to them easily from either the ECML or the MML or does it involve a bit of shunting or ground frames etc etc???

According to Trackmaps, there is a direct electrified connection (single track) from the international platforms towards the ECML and WCML via the North London Incline.
The eastward connection to the ECML is called, reasonably enough, the ECML Connection, while the westward one towards the NLL/WCML is called the Silo Curve.
There is also a single track connection to the MML but it is unelectrified and called the Maintenance Siding, so hardly main line.
As far as I can see, these connections have been never been used by passenger trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The other bridge to cross (erm ) would be the UIC platforms leaving a big gap. I guess wooden steps and wheelchair lifts could be used.

 

[Halish Railway]

If the CS out of Euston is an issue, what other terminus' are there that they could use? Is Liverpool Street one?

 

[Ianno87]

If the CS out of Euston is an issue, what other terminus' are there that they could use? Is Liverpool Street one?

Liverpool St doesn't have any platforms longer than 240m (and capacity there is pretty 'subscribed' already)

 

[SeanG]

Would Paddington work?

 

[87015]

Liverpool St doesn't have any platforms longer than 240m (and capacity there is pretty 'subscribed' already)

That won't stop the err, inventive ideas, that come out of HS2. They have already proposed sending limited Pendos to Liverpool St as one of their 'solutions' for getting all the access they want at Euston. Thankfully some realism seems to have batted back most of the Euston plans hence why now far less is coming out of use than HS2 want.

 

[xotGD]

Would Paddington work?

I was thinking about that - reversal in Acton Yard then up the West Coast. A bit of diesel traction may, however, be required.

 

[NSEFAN]

The sleepers could be split into seperate trains, so that they'll fit at Kings Cross but still have capacity. Glasgow, Edinburgh, Inverness and Fort William+Aberdeen workings, or something like that?

 

[JonathanH]

Running the trains to anywhere other than Kings Cross or Euston does make the services rather more uncompetitive, especially in the morning. 0747 is a reasonable arrival time for a 0900 start for work. How are loadings on the Highland sleeper affected when the services use the East Coast and trundle round north London reaching Euston after 0900?

 

[Whistler40145]

Which section of the WCML would be inaccessible during HS2 works?

 

[alex17595]

Could you not just split the Highland in 2 and reassemble it into one at Wembly and vice versa on the return. How much time would something like this add on to travel times?

 

[route:oxford]

Kensington Olympia?

Alternatively, given that it will be at least 10 years of disruption... Are there carriage sidings, handy for an underground station, that could be rebuilt/re-engineered into a temporary station for the sleeper and/or local services?

 

[London Trains]

Victoria?
WCML > WLL > SE Lines into VIC.

VIC Platform 3 - 188m
VIC Platform 4 - 201m
VIC Platform 8 - 221m
VIC Platform 6 - 245m
VIC Platform 5 - 247m
VIC Platform 1 - 270m
VIC Platform 7 - 286m
VIC Platform 2 - 359m - Suitable for the Sleeper?

Probably a 30 - 45 minute delay than if it went to Euston.

 

[The Planner]

Which section of the WCML would be inaccessible during HS2 works?

None of its inaccessible, its about losing platforms at Euston. Like I said earlier, it will be on the Euston Road, Serco won't accept anywhere else.

 

[Mag_seven]

Would Paddington work?

No - particularly in the morning when platforms are at a premium. I don't even know if there is a platform long enough at Padd anyway.

 

[Halish Railway]

Could Liverpool Street work if the Platforms were extended once the Shenfield local trains move?

 

[Bald Rick]

That won't stop the err, inventive ideas, that come out of HS2. They have already proposed sending limited Pendos to Liverpool St as one of their 'solutions' for getting all the access they want at Euston. Thankfully some realism seems to have batted back most of the Euston plans hence why now far less is coming out of use than HS2 want.

That idea was squashed very very quickly.

Could Liverpool Street work if the Platforms were extended once the Shenfield local trains move?

No, because the platforms for the Shenfield 'locals' are half the length of the sleeper trains. You'd have to take out about half the entire service at Liverpool Street to get 350m platforms in.

As The Planner says, it will be St P (International) with special arrangements for the platform gaps, or Kings Cross with 3 trains. Or Euston off 1 platform, as was done for most of 2000.