Ex-VTEC 91's for Blackpool - London Euston

[DJH1971]

Came across a couple of articles where they are looking to use these once Preston to Blackpool is wired.

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/i...and-mk4s-for-west-coast-in-new-alliance-plan/

ALLIANCE Rail Holdings has, despite the best efforts of many parties, dropped its plans to procure Class 390 ‘Pendolino’ trains for use on Blackpool to Euston services.

Although the Office of Rail and Road approved the proposal in 2015, Alliance and the ORR have agreed that the approval will lapse.

Instead of ‘Pendolinos’, Alliance is in discussions with Eversholt Rail to lease a number of Class 91 and Mk4 carriage sets for the Blackpool service.

Alliance plans to run six trains daily calling at Poulton-le-Fylde, Kirkham & Wesham, Preston, Nuneaton and Milton Keynes, with seven carriages. This calling pattern has been changed to accommodate journey times of three hours, at a maximum speed of 110mph....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_91

Anyone know how this proposal is progressing?

 

[MCR247]

I mean I'd take any Alliance Rail plan with a spoonful of salt tbh

 

[Tim R-T-C]

It very much depends on the new East Coast trains and the Blackpool wiring being completed on time.

 

[gazthomas]

But will they be fast enough as they'll be limited to 110 mph max as they don't tilt?

 

[D365]

But will they be fast enough as they'll be limited to 110 mph max as they don't tilt?

Indeed. Why the 91s at that point though? The Class 90s accelerate better to 110mph, and are more reliable.

 

[Helvellyn]

Maybe the leasing company has offered Alliance a good deal? Plus couldn't the 91s be regeared if they were going to be limited to 110mph?

 

[D365]

Maybe the leasing company has offered Alliance a good deal? Plus couldn't the 91s be regeared if they were going to be limited to 110mph?

Expensive and risk to reliability at this stage? But as you say, it’s Eversholt’s call.

 

[Jonny]

Also, the Class 90s have an extra (about) 60kN maximum force extra available (within the 110mph limit).

 

[Tim R-T-C]

The Anglia 90s are not due to be fully replaced until September 2020, so perhaps they are unsure if they will be available by the time the service comes in. Obviously availability of the freight locomotives would vary and presumably they would rather have fully branded trains, rather than shabby EWS or Freightliner liveried 90s.

 

[D365]

Surely dedicated locomotives/liveries could be made available like with the Caledonian Sleeper?

 

[dmncf]

I mean I'd take any Alliance Rail plan with a spoonful of salt tbh

Quite - their earlier claims that they'd acquire new Pendolino trains was fanciful. An open access operator simply isn't going to commit to make lease payments to cover an investment of that magnitude.

 

[Halish Railway]

Is the TOC just going to be branded as "Alliance Rail"? Also, what will the frequency and stopping pattern be like?

 

[D365]

Is the TOC just going to be branded as "Alliance Rail"? Also, what will the frequency and stopping pattern be like?

Think you're being quite optimistic there.

 

[snowball]

It very much depends on the new East Coast trains and the Blackpool wiring being completed on time.

The Blackpool wiring is due to be completed by May 2018 and the the general view on the relevant thread is that that date is likely to be met. The first Hitachi trains on the ECML are not due to enter service until December 2018.

 

[AlexNL]

Is the TOC just going to be branded as "Alliance Rail"? Also, what will the frequency and stopping pattern be like?

Alliance refer to this service as 'GNWR', stopping at Preston, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Poulton-le-Fylde and Kirkham & Wesham.

Source: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/index.php/projects

 

[Starmill]

They have mooted using the Grand Central brand.

 

[fowler9]

One train doing 2 returns a day?

 

[AlexNL]

They're talking about 6 daily services, I assume that means 3 returns?

 

[fowler9]

They're talking about 6 daily services, I assume that means 3 returns?

I guess that would be doable with 2 trains? Is there space on the WCML if you allow for trains terminating at Preston that could be extended?

 

[Suraggu]

I swear Alliance Rail just like wasting everyone's time and Arriva's money. In regards to the original bid for 390s on the route industry insiders were told they had driven Alstom round the bend with constant meetings about pricing until they finally had enough and its it's this price per train and that's it.

I can not ever see this getting off the ground to be honest.

 

[Ianno87]

Alliance refer to this service as 'GNWR', stopping at Preston, Nuneaton, Milton Keynes, Poulton-le-Fylde and Kirkham & Wesham.

Source: http://www.alliancerail.co.uk/index.php/projects

Not necessarily in that order

I guess that would be doable with 2 trains? Is there space on the WCML if you allow for trains terminating at Preston that could be extended?

There is notionally one "spare" path most off-peak hours out of Euston (xx33 on the Down in the current timetable), which I assume Alliance would intend to use in some hours of the day..

 

[Halish Railway]

What will be the formation of the trains? Would they keep the buffet car?

 

[DarloRich]

Yeah! Proper trains on the WCML. If it ever happens......................................

 

[whhistle]

That's a lot of train for just a handful of services...

Maybe Eversholt worked out they were about to be lumbered with a whole load of trains they'll struggle to lease out soon, so did give them an exceptional deal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly so. I think there is a fairly high chance of the 91+Mk4 sets being scrapped once the 80x arrive...so "higher than scrap value" is a bonus, even if only a few quid per set higher.

 

[Roast Veg]

The proposal document can be found here: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/25820/s17-gnwr-draft-contract.pdf

In it, it identifies the rolling stock as "Class 91 Locomotive and up to 7 Mk 4 coaches and a DVT" on page 98. Personally I think that if they can get the path at Euston the rest will come quite easily.

 

[gordonthemoron]

isn't the xx:33 slot already used for some down peak services? Possibly only thursday/friday

 

[AlexNL]

Not necessarily in that order

I just copypasta'd it over from Alliance's website. I'm not that familiar with the UK's geography beyond the major cities (London, Brum, Edinburgh, Newcastle and Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch of course).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I swear Alliance Rail just like wasting everyone's time and Arriva's money. In regards to the original bid for 390s on the route industry insiders were told they had driven Alstom round the bend with constant meetings about pricing until they finally had enough and its it's this price per train and that's it.
I can not ever see this getting off the ground to be honest.

The 390 proposal (actually a new design) was based on a run-on from larger orders by VTWC, and First for its ECML open access service to Edinburgh.
Neither of those happened (the DfT wouldn't approve new trains for Virgin, and First have gone with 802s), and Alstom wouldn't build a tiny order just for Alliance.
On introduction, IC225s won't be released from VTEC until well into 2020, as their first priority is for bi-mode IEPs to replace HSTs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Didn't we already discuss this a few months back?

Yes we did: Alliance Rail GNWR Services Approved

and also here: New track access applications for Blackpool to London services

This isn't meant as criticism of the OP, by the way. More that Alliance are very good on the regurgitation of proposals but not so good on firm activity... I could probably find another half a dozen previous discussions in the long time since this first surfaced. There were quite a few pages about the potential use of Queens Park as a terminus somewhere as well...