Taken to court, facing criminal charges advice needed

[Janet266]

I have been taken to court for supposedly "boarding a train without a valid ticket and with intent to evade fare"

I was on a return journey from Manchester to Andover where I had a "via London ticket" however boarded a not via London route (not knowing this would be an issue)
The Conductor said my ticket was invalid and told me I had to buy a new one at full price.
In hindsight I can see that the rule is that I should have to pay the difference for which there was none as mine was more expensive. (See conditions for carriage).
The second conductor told the first conductor and I that they would let me off with a warning as they can see my ticket was stamped on the way up and therefore I did not know that this was wrong.
I received correspondence from them saying that they would take me to court and to write to them any exceptions.
I explained what happened and how the guy said not to worry about it and how I had the more expensive ticket of the two so there was no excess.

I have now had another letter from them where there have ignored my response and now have a court date where I am faced with a criminal record and large fine. All for accidentally boarding the wrong route.

At no point was I asked to pay the difference between two tickets only a full ticket at full price, which is breaking condition for carriage rules.
At no point was I given the option or requested to pay a penalty fate at later date.

 

[MG11]

I have been taken to court for supposedly "boarding a train without a valid ticket and with intent to evade fare"

I was on a return journey from Manchester to Andover where I had a "via London ticket" however boarded a not via London route (not knowing this would be an issue)
The Conductor said my ticket was invalid and told me I had to buy a new one at full price.
In hindsight I can see that the rule is that I should have to pay the difference for which there was none as mine was more expensive. (See conditions for carriage).
The second conductor told the first conductor and I that they would let me off with a warning as they can see my ticket was stamped on the way up and therefore I did not know that this was wrong.
I received correspondence from them saying that they would take me to court and to write to them any exceptions.
I explained what happened and how the guy said not to worry about it and how I had the more expensive ticket of the two so there was no excess.

I have now had another letter from them where there have ignored my response and now have a court date where I am faced with a criminal record and large fine. All for accidentally boarding the wrong route.

At no point was I asked to pay the difference between two tickets only a full ticket at full price, which is breaking condition for carriage rules.
At no point was I given the option or requested to pay a penalty fate at later date.

Are you sure you weren't questioned by a Revenue Protection Officer? Did they say to you "you do not have to say anything, however it may harm your defense if you fail to mention when questioned, something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence"????

 

[Janet266]

Just a normal train conductor on board the train. They didn't mention anything about court

Are you sure you weren't questioned by a Revenue Protection Officer? Did they say to you "you do not have to say anything, however it may harm your defense if you fail to mention when questioned, something which you later rely on in court, anything you do say may be given in evidence"????

 

[MG11]

Just a normal train conductor on board the train. They didn't mention anything about court

Hmmm I'm not sure if it can be classed as admissible evidence if you weren't interviewed under caution, someone more senior than me on here can clarify that for you though. Was your ticket consfiscated as evidence?

 

[sheff1]

What type of ticket did you have - Anytime or Off Peak ?

What time train were you on ?

Whereabouts on the journey was the ticket checked ?

 

[najaB]

At no point was I asked to pay the difference between two tickets only a full ticket at full price, which is breaking condition for carriage rules.
At no point was I given the option or requested to pay a penalty fate at later date.

You don't have a right to a penalty fare, and many Train Operating Companies (TOCs) don't run penalty fare schemes anyway. If you were just off route then the normal course of action would be to excess your ticket to the 'Any Permitted' fare. If your ticket was more expensive than the Any Permitted then they should have issued a zero-fare excess.

It does seem a little strange that this has resulted in a prosecution - could you provide more information such as the stations involved and the ticket you held (if you can provide the exact price and starting and ending station on the ticket we can probably figure out the rest).

 

[Janet266]

Ticket not confiscated.

 

[Janet266]

Didn't get this option there is no any permitted ticket for this route either

You don't have a right to a penalty fare, and many Train Operating Companies (TOCs) don't run penalty fare schemes anyway. If you were just off route then the normal course of action would be to excess your ticket to the 'Any Permitted' fare. If your ticket was more expensive than the Any Permitted then they should have issued a zero-fare excess.

It does seem a little strange that this has resulted in a prosecution - could you provide more information such as the stations involved and the ticket you held (if you can provide the exact price and starting and ending station on the ticket we can probably figure out the rest).

 

[najaB]

Didn't get this option there is no any permitted ticket for this route either

The Via London fare would be the equivalent of the Any Permitted in this case. Could you provide the starting and ending stations and fare paid, please?

 

[Janet266]

The Via London fare would be the equivalent of the Any Permitted in this case. Could you provide the starting and ending stations and fare paid, please?

The via London was the ticket I had. Start of return journey was Manchester change at Basingstoke to go to Andover. There I was on a "not via London" route and apparently needed a not via London ticket.

 

[MikeWh]

The Via London fare would be the equivalent of the Any Permitted in this case. Could you provide the starting and ending stations and fare paid, please?

The OP says the return portion of a Manchester to Andover ticket.

 

[Janet266]

My ticket was something like twenty pound more expensive than the not via London

 

[najaB]

The OP says the return portion of a Manchester to Andover ticket.

I know that was the journey being made, however the stations on the ticket may have been different - e.g. starting/ending short.

 

[najaB]

My ticket was something like twenty pound more expensive than the not via London

Can you remember the exact price? It's so that we can look up any restrictions applicable to that specific ticket.

 

[Janet266]

Not sure. Hundred and something iirc.

 

[sheff1]

Are you able to answer my questions in #5 ?

A 'via London' ticket is valid for travel from Manchester to Reading via Birmingham, but there might be time restrictions depending on the ticket

 

[Janet266]

Yes it was an off peak return. Though the off peak wasn't an issue as I wasn't travelling at an on peak time.

Are you able to answer my questions in #5 ?

A 'via London' ticket is valid for travel from Manchester to Reading via Birmingham, but there might be time restrictions depending on the ticket

 

[Janet266]

Do you have a source for this please?

Are you able to answer my questions in #5 ?

A 'via London' ticket is valid for travel from Manchester to Reading via Birmingham, but there might be time restrictions depending on the ticket

 

[yorkie]

Did you hold a Manchester to Andover Off Peak Return routed +via London at £110.70?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=ADV&grpo=0438&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SVR

What trains were you on?

The ticket may actually have been completely valid! XC can choose to either accept the ticket, or issue an excess fare with a price of £0.

When is the court date?

I'll see if I can arrange for a solicitor with experience of defeating XC to assist...

 

[najaB]

Not sure. Hundred and something iirc.

I'll assume then that it was this one: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=ADV&grpo=0438&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SVR
It has some time restrictions, did you fall foul of any of them?

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to depart:
London Euston after 04:29 and before 09:26 or after 15:00 and before 18:45;
London Kings Cross after 02:59 and before 09:06 or after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays);
London Liverpool Street before 09:31 or after 16:28 and before 18:35;
London Marylebone after 06:29 and before 09:00 or after 16:00 and before 19:00;
London Paddington after 04:29 and before 08:10 and after 16:40 and before 18:31;
London St Pancras International before 10:26 or after 15:15 and before 18:59;
London Waterloo before 08:15;
Kensington Olympia before 09:15 or after 15:14 and before 18:12;
Bedford after 04:29 and before 09:01;
Luton or Luton Airport Parkway before 09:01 or after 16:29 and before 18:59;
Milton Keynes Central after 04:29 and before 09:51;
Reading after 04:29 and before 08:35 and after 17:10 until 19:01;
Stevenage after 02:59 and before 09:19 or after 15:06 and before 19:01 (18:35 on Fridays);
Stratford after 17:04 and before 18:55;
Watford Junction after 04:29 and before 09:38 or after 15:00 and before 18:38.

 

[najaB]

The ticket may actually have been completely valid!

That's my thinking here as well.

 

[sheff1]

That's my thinking here as well.

And mine, which is why I was trying to find out where the ticket was inspected.

Do you have a source for this please?

It is the Routeing Guide http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide. Now yorkie has joined the thread, I will let him take over.

 

[Janet266]

Restrictions code is 9i

 

[MikeWh]

I'll assume then that it was this one: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=ADV&grpo=0438&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SVR
It has some time restrictions, did you fall foul of any of them?

If used on Cross Country via Birmingham then 2V takes over (not valid between 0430-0929).

 

[Janet266]

Yes the br fares route you Linked is correct. Time of travel would have been week day 4-5:30pm department (can't remember exactly departure time)

 

[yorkie]

The fare is valid.
Providing you are represented by a suitable barrister in court, you will win the case.
Where will it be held and when?
This is not the first time XC have done this!

You may wish to contact me directly. I am happy to phone you tomorrow if you would like some direct assistance.

 

[najaB]

Yes the br fares route you Linked is correct. Time of travel would have been week day 4-5:30pm department (can't remember exactly departure time)

Based on what you've posted I believe your ticket was valid.

 

[cuccir]

Agree with others. If you are being honest with us, your fare was fully valid.

I suggest taking Yorkie up on his offer to speak. You will need some support to guarantee winning this is court, but I can't believe Crosscountry would proceed if they received a well worded letter pointing out the relevant terms and conditions of railway travel that they appear to have missed!

 

[Janet266]

Thanks for the help. On the websites you have linked it only says the routes that aren't valid, not the ones that are valid.

Can I assume that if my route isn't on the invalid list then it is a valid route?

 

[furlong]

Ticket not confiscated.

Do you still have the ticket? Or failing that, some proof of precisely what you purchased? Try to reconstruct as best you can which trains you caught for the whole journey and between which stations each of the ticket inspections happened. You might need the company to identify the first ticket inspector as a (defence) witness.

Have you kept a copy of the response you sent them? Start gathering all the information and correspondence you have into one place so you can easily pass everything on to a legal professional if need be.