East Croydon

[Bletchleyite]

A few observations / questions.

First of all the fancy blue lights seem to be failing all over the place...obviously a cheap and nasty job.

Regarding the new footbridge...why is smooth tiling still used for this kind of thing rather than knobbly tiles or other grippy material? It’s treacherous in the wet.

Looks like a new type of TVM has been installed by the new bridge, what type is it? It seems unfamiliar.

Finally, how come the “landside” part of the new bridge isn’t in use?

Cheers all.

 

[MarkyT]

Finally, how come the “landside” part of the new bridge isn’t in use?

Opening of this is contingent on provision of an east side stair and lift access, without which it has no purpose. The east side access is supposed to be incorporated in the lower floors of a commercial office development, but I read some time ago this has been delayed for some reason with NR having no means of forcing the developers to complete the access. With hindsight it might have been better for NR to construct the access with provision for an air rights development above, much like TfL usually does for its new and reconstructed stations, but perhaps they were not in a position to do this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers, makes sense.

 

[talldave]

A few observations / questions.

First of all the fancy blue lights seem to be failing all over the place...obviously a cheap and nasty job.

Agree, very poor quality. It's a shame they're not like ones I've seen in Madrid where they change to green or red depending on whether there's a train at the platform.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agree, very poor quality. It's a shame they're not like ones I've seen in Madrid where they change to green or red depending on whether there's a train at the platform.

Using green and red is a bit concerning and could serve to confuse drivers who might mistake it for a signal from a distance? So blue is probably the only colour you realistically can use (or plain white).

 

[edwin_m]

Even white might cause confusion with position lights and route indicators.

 

[tsr]

First of all the fancy blue lights seem to be failing all over the place...obviously a cheap and nasty job.

The LEDs seem to be failing since they were illuminated for passenger use, rather than any sort of physical damage in the time before that. When they were installed and tested some time ago (last winter, IIRC) and when they were switched on in the last few weeks, they were all working, with considerable footfall in between. It seems to be only during the last two weeks or so that they've been dying.

As it is not terribly common for LEDs themselves to go kaput that quickly when they're being used, I wonder if there are some dodgy power supplies to blame. East Croydon has an eccentric variety of utilities installations, to say the least.

Regarding the new footbridge...why is smooth tiling still used for this kind of thing rather than knobbly tiles or other grippy material? It’s treacherous in the wet.

It's actually quite good when it gets seriously cold, but that's not terribly often (he says, looking at the weather charts), so that's a bit pointless. It's pretty rubbish in normal wet conditions. There have been complaints... and also a noticeable change in behaviour, with people slowing down a tad, which is good (pity the same cannot be said of people using the ramps).

Looks like a new type of TVM has been installed by the new bridge, what type is it? It seems unfamiliar.

Quite literally the whole Southern network is getting new TVMs of two varieties (East Croydon being one of the last on the list) and there's also a further variant with a very large touchscreen which seems to be popping up around London (though mainly on TfL Rail). I haven't used the Dingwall Road footbridge entrance of East Croydon for about a month and a half, so can't comment on the type you've seen.

Even white might cause confusion with position lights and route indicators.

Of which there are many at East Croydon!

 

[ijmad]

Blue lights at train stations have been shown in to reduce suicides in Japan.
Possibly Network Rail has chosen the colour for that reason? (as well as it not being the same as signals)
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/how-blue-lights-on-train-platforms-combat-tokyos-suicide-epidemic

...A research paper published in the Journal of Affective Disorder in 2013 (four years after the first lights were installed) found that there was an 84 percent decrease in suicides at stations with the blue lights. The exact reason why the lights are effective isn’t known, but some researchers theorize that it’s related to the apparent positive effect of light on mood....

 

[jon0844]

Gatwick has the blue lighting too (ceiling, not platform).

 

[talldave]

The LEDs seem to be failing since they were illuminated for passenger use, rather than any sort of physical damage in the time before that. When they were installed and tested some time ago (last winter, IIRC) and when they were switched on in the last few weeks, they were all working, with considerable footfall in between. It seems to be only during the last two weeks or so that they've been dying.

As it is not terribly common for LEDs themselves to go kaput that quickly when they're being used, I wonder if there are some dodgy power supplies to blame. East Croydon has an eccentric variety of utilities installations, to say the least.

I think you're right, they could be being run at or over their voltage limit and are gradually burning out. Or the housing isn't able to dissipate sufficient heat, perhaps?

 

[edwin_m]

I think you're right, they could be being run at or over their voltage limit and are gradually burning out. Or the housing isn't able to dissipate sufficient heat, perhaps?

Seems reasonable. A modest but not extreme over-voltage would probably shorten the life of a LED without failing it immediately. Could be the LED drivers are working correctly but voltage spikes are being induced in the cables from the current in the nearby rails?

 

[tsr]

Blue lights at train stations have been shown in to reduce suicides in Japan.
Possibly Network Rail has chosen the colour for that reason? (as well as it not being the same as signals)
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/how-blue-lights-on-train-platforms-combat-tokyos-suicide-epidemic

Gatwick has the blue lighting too (ceiling, not platform).

The East Croydon lighting is not specifically an anti-suicide measure but may end up helping prevent such incidents. It’s mainly to do with marking out the platform edge as a warning to people running down the ramp. The level of passenger accidents on the ramps at East Croydon is a very troubling issue which has had a lot of resources thrown at it without many results.

Gatwick’s blue lights are, however, an anti-suicide scheme. It seems to have really worked, which is fantastic.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The LEDs seem to be failing in groups, so perhaps damp in the control circuitry?

 

[maniacmartin]

I have to agree about the stairs - they're extremely slippery when wet and in my opinion very dangerous.

 

[NSE]

I personally hate the fact they’ve covered up the sides of the ramp so you can’t see if your train is there. I now run frequently down those slopes as I can’t see if my train is there or not whereas before I knew if I was able to catch it or would miss it. Of course I ran a few times, but nowhere near the amount of times I do now.

 

[maniacmartin]

New signs have appeared on the ramps saying No Running. Unlike the others they’re the red circle type as sold here

 

[ert47]

Quite literally the whole Southern network is getting new TVMs of two varieties (East Croydon being one of the last on the list) and there's also a further variant with a very large touchscreen which seems to be popping up around London (though mainly on TfL Rail). I haven't used the Dingwall Road footbridge entrance of East Croydon for about a month and a half, so can't comment on the type you've seen.

S&B ones, they're the same as the ones at the main entrance - 2 card only TVMs have been installed at the bottom of the stairs on Caithness Walk, some work needs to be done first before the last 2 machines are installed upstairs (I believe to be one cash/card and one card only)

As for the full screen TVMs, I've seen them installed at West Hampstead Overground

 

[Peter Mugridge]

New signs have appeared on the ramps saying No Running. Unlike the others they’re the red circle type as sold here

I've seen those there for quite some time. The big problem is that as NSE says the sides of the ramp have been covered up ( a couple of years ago ) with the result that people now run because they can't see if there is anything in the platform or not - particularly those using platform 1 for Victoria.

That the roof supports on the ramps are perpendicular to the ramp rather than vertical has the effect that you subconsciously feel less balanced on those ramps as well, especially when going down them, which does not help matters.

 

[NSE]

New signs have appeared on the ramps saying No Running. Unlike the others they’re the red circle type as sold here

They can put up as many signs as they like but if my trains in the platform I’m not missing it. I’m not saying I do a full Usain Bolt sprint, but I’m gonna speed up my pace down the ramp every time.

 

[tsr]

The LEDs seem to be failing in groups, so perhaps damp in the control circuitry?

We could speculate all day, but until I get the chance to ask the question of someone more knowledgeable, I won't be able to give an exact answer.

I personally hate the fact they’ve covered up the sides of the ramp so you can’t see if your train is there. I now run frequently down those slopes as I can’t see if my train is there or not whereas before I knew if I was able to catch it or would miss it. Of course I ran a few times, but nowhere near the amount of times I do now.

Interesting, because the whole point of the frosted overlay on the glass is to prevent people running for a train which they can already see in the platform. Platforms 1 and 2 used to be especially bad for this because many of the destination boards of the front or rear of the trains were usually directly visible from somewhere around the top of the ramp. By the time you arrived at the bottom, the train had gone, but the damage could be (and often was) already done.

The idea is that you're less likely to run for a train if you aren't sure if the train has arrived, is in the platform, or has departed.

Most people do not have the level of knowledge of a rail enthusiast, in terms of the dispatch sequence and whether or not you actually have missed the train. For a lot of people, a train is only off-limits once it starts moving at any speed (you only have to see the number of people hammering at door buttons before the wheels have even stopped, or after the doors are closed and locked, to realise this).

New signs have appeared on the ramps saying No Running. Unlike the others they’re the red circle type as sold here

Unfortunately, whilst this sort of thing has to be done (if anything can be done, it will be), it will probably have a negligible impact on the number of accidents.

S&B ones, they're the same as the ones at the main entrance - 2 card only TVMs have been installed at the bottom of the stairs on Caithness Walk, some work needs to be done first before the last 2 machines are installed upstairs (I believe to be one cash/card and one card only)

As for the full screen TVMs, I've seen them installed at West Hampstead Overground

Thanks for the update!

Regarding those super-size screen TVMs, it's interesting to hear ARL are fitting them. I can only assume the existing machines are life-expired, as the new ones are hardly any better (in fact, extremely slow, on the whole).

I've seen those there for quite some time. The big problem is that as NSE says the sides of the ramp have been covered up ( a couple of years ago ) with the result that people now run because they can't see if there is anything in the platform or not - particularly those using platform 1 for Victoria.

That the roof supports on the ramps are perpendicular to the ramp rather than vertical has the effect that you subconsciously feel less balanced on those ramps as well, especially when going down them, which does not help matters.

As above, you're not meant to be able to see anything in the platforms. If you think a train is in situ but you can't see it on the departure boards, and run down the ramps thinking you can make it, you're rather likely to miss the service anyway. Whether or not there is a window makes little difference to the realistic outcome, but it is designed to prevent people seeing some random train in the platform and thinking they can make it.

They can put up as many signs as they like but if my trains in the platform I’m not missing it. I’m not saying I do a full Usain Bolt sprint, but I’m gonna speed up my pace down the ramp every time.

If you could kindly not do that, it would be appreciated. For the most part, at East Croydon, there is always another train.

 

[maniacmartin]

Like NSE, I am not a fan of the frosted affect on the ramps. For a start, it makes the ramps feel really dark and gloomy, and it doesn't stop you knowing if a train is due to leave for a few reasons
1. There is a big departure board at the top of the ramps where live running information is displayed
2. If there is a large crowd of people coming up the ramp for e.g. platforms 5/6 in the evening peak, you can be pretty sure a southbound train has just arrived at one of those platforms
3. You can hear the diesel engines of any Uckfield trains when you're on the ramp, if one is in the platform
4. At the top of the ramp, you can see through the vent at the bottom of the windows and see if any trains are on the platform.

I will admit however, that the average rail traveller is unlikely to be as savvy as people who comment on this forum. As mentioned upthread, the super-slick stairs seem much worse to me for safety than people running on ramps, especially as falling down a staircase is likely to be more likely to cause injury than falling over on a ramp. However nothing appears to be planned to rectify that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2. If there is a large crowd of people coming up the ramp for e.g. platforms 5/6 in the evening peak, you can be pretty sure a southbound train has just arrived at one of those platforms

One thing that would help that would be an "up" side and a "down" side with a central railing. Some people would ignore it, but it would at least make it possible to get to the platforms while an arrival is taking place.

 

[jon0844]

One thing that would help that would be an "up" side and a "down" side with a central railing. Some people would ignore it, but it would at least make it possible to get to the platforms while an arrival is taking place.

Most people would ignore it, let's be honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people would ignore it, let's be honest.

Would they? While it's not universal, it is obeyed more often than it is not on the Tube, at least to an adequate extent to allow flows to be managed reasonably well. And almost everyone who is arriving at East Croydon in the evening peak will have used the Tube.

The stairs at MKC have directional markings and they are *mostly* observed, again enough that people coming up aren't an obstruction to people going down to the point that they can't get on the platforms as was the case previously. One person on the wrong side isn't a massive issue, really, it's just ensuring one side is much quieter than the other so movement on both sides is possible.

 

[maniacmartin]

I interchange at ECR a lot in peak, and I don't think a central railing is necessary. It's not as busy or as narrow as a lot of tube station corridors and it is generally not a problem walking against a peak flow.

Also, I don't think your assertion that 'almost everybody' arriving at East Croydon in the evening peak will have used the tube. There is a significant proportion of passengers who arrive/depart from London Victoria and London Bridge by foot or by bus. I vaguely recall reading in that at London Bridge, more people arrive by foot/bus than by tube, which I could certainly believe as the pavement on the bridge over the river is always very busy in peak.

 

[tsr]

Like NSE, I am not a fan of the frosted affect on the ramps. For a start, it makes the ramps feel really dark and gloomy, and it doesn't stop you knowing if a train is due to leave for a few reasons
1. There is a big departure board at the top of the ramps where live running information is displayed
2. If there is a large crowd of people coming up the ramp for e.g. platforms 5/6 in the evening peak, you can be pretty sure a southbound train has just arrived at one of those platforms
3. You can hear the diesel engines of any Uckfield trains when you're on the ramp, if one is in the platform
4. At the top of the ramp, you can see through the vent at the bottom of the windows and see if any trains are on the platform.

In order...

1. Yes, but each train's information disappears from the boards at a pre-set time before departure, so that trains are not advertised which are unsafe for people to try to reach before they leave.
2. Which means that trying to run through them will be challenging (albeit a popular sport...) and usually results in people missing their trains anyway. By the time the bulk of the crowds appear on the ramps, most people who were waiting on the platforms have boarded, and the train is preparing for departure.
3. For many passengers, diesel does not necessarily equal an Uckfield train. Some of the Uckfield regulars still don't know that their trains are diesel powered (yes, really! I talk to a lot of them...), and on the flip side, when the diesels arrive at East Croydon, the conductors and platform staff regularly get asked if the train goes to Purley, Caterham, Redhill, Brighton etc.
4. Not something a lot of people do, if I'm honest.

As mentioned upthread, the super-slick stairs seem much worse to me for safety than people running on ramps, especially as falling down a staircase is likely to be more likely to cause injury than falling over on a ramp. However nothing appears to be planned to rectify that.

I believe the stairs have seen considerably fewer incidents than your post suggests. The ramps are far more risky, which is why so many mitigation measures have been put in place there, and not the stairs. The station management of East Croydon would not have focussed all the attention on the ramps if they weren't the dangerous bit.

The apparently slippy surface and steep gradient of the stairs does mean that people take greater care when using them.

Would they? While it's not universal, it is obeyed more often than it is not on the Tube, at least to an adequate extent to allow flows to be managed reasonably well. And almost everyone who is arriving at East Croydon in the evening peak will have used the Tube.

The stairs at MKC have directional markings and they are *mostly* observed, again enough that people coming up aren't an obstruction to people going down to the point that they can't get on the platforms as was the case previously. One person on the wrong side isn't a massive issue, really, it's just ensuring one side is much quieter than the other so movement on both sides is possible.

I interchange at ECR a lot in peak, and I don't think a central railing is necessary. It's not as busy or as narrow as a lot of tube station corridors and it is generally not a problem walking against a peak flow.

Also, I don't think your assertion that 'almost everybody' arriving at East Croydon in the evening peak will have used the tube. There is a significant proportion of passengers who arrive/depart from London Victoria and London Bridge by foot or by bus. I vaguely recall reading in that at London Bridge, more people arrive by foot/bus than by tube, which I could certainly believe as the pavement on the bridge over the river is always very busy in peak.

Central railings are not always a good thing. You only have to look at the crush in the subway at Stratford each evening.

As for the Tube point, maniacmartin is probably right. Not only do the London termini have large numbers of foot, bus and cycle passengers (not to mention the odd river bus passenger at London Bridge, and those using taxis etc.), but there's also the West London Line service and stopping services via Clapham Junction, trains via the Blackfriars area where many people board from street level without touching the Tube (City Thameslink doesn't even have a Tube station...).

Oh, and all the commuters from Horsham, Crawley, Gatwick, Redhill, Haywards Heath, Three Bridges and Brighton (certain trains in the evening around 1730-1800 are full and standing from Gatwick or Earlswood to London...).

 

[ert47]

1. Yes, but each train's information disappears from the boards at a pre-set time before departure, so that trains are not advertised which are unsafe for people to try to reach before they leave.

The main board on the concourse no longer does this.

 

[tsr]

The main board on the concourse no longer does this.

It should be... it could be that you have experienced it when the visual status of the train as "on time" has not yet updated to the small delay which it actually has, and therefore the train has not yet actually reached the platform.

If there's anything else, I am quite sure it will get a fault report done in due course!

 

[Busaholic]

I vaguely recall reading in that at London Bridge, more people arrive by foot/bus than by tube, which I could certainly believe as the pavement on the bridge over the river is always very busy in peak.

If Liverpool Street/ Shoreditch ever got a direct tube connection with London Bridge then that proportion might increase, but I'd be absolutely unsurprised to find that were true. The eastern side of the bridge has always attracted the majority of that footfall, probably because so many emanate from Bishopsgate/ Fenchurch Street direction.

 

[Railcar]

When things go wrong on the network and trains are delayed, the main departure displays in the ticket hall at East Croydon fill up with trains that are yet to arrive. This means that trains that are still running to time remain stuck on the 'later departures' list with no indication of stopping pattern. There is room for more main departure displays above the ticket office.

For matters like that it would be good to be able to give feedback to the Station Manager but, alas, if there is such a person they never seem to be visible. If I wanted to find the Station Manager, where should I go? Please don't tell me to email GTR Customer Relations.