How can you tell how old a child is?

[AngusH]

As others have said, national free proof of age card would easily solve the problem and since it would effectively eliminate false purchasing of child tickets I expect it would easily pay for itself.

Oh yes, I agree completely. If you had to have a particular proof of age card to buy a child ticket, that would be fine with me.
My objection is that this isn't currently the requirement.

 

[AngusH]

(My objection to the events that occurred that is)

 

[RJ]

The obvious answer to this is a mandatory national Child Photocard along the lines of the TfL schemes.

Is it? I encounter a large number of people at my humble station who don't even want to buy a ticket for their children aged 5-10, sometimes 11-15. Can you imagine the furore if they were made to get photocards for them all?! Not sure the railways want that kind of headache!

 

[RJ]

Personal answer as a ticket inspector? I don't bother. Not my problem and I don't worry about it. If someone comes up with a way to make it easier to tell then fine, or unless the passenger is spectacularly stupid like showing a driving licence in a purse while fishing their ticket out, or drinking alcohol on board on a child ticket in which case I don't hesitate to punish them for it.

Agreed and I apply the same logic when selling tickets.

 

[Qwerty133]

I did the exact same. I had a child rate photocard once I turned 15 but despite carrying it, I was stopped at the gateline. They refused to accept I was 15 (I was 6'2" at the time and in a suit) and overall it was not fun. In the end I walked off so as not to miss my bus.

I was also questioned on multiple occasions when travelling with child rate season tickets and a child photo card (some thing that looked as though it was 30 years old and was definitely from the BR era).
Is it really any surprise when some stations were still using things printed in the BR era only a few years ago?

 

[All Line Rover]

Honestly, the bottom line for me is that if a RPI reasonably believes they're travelling on a fraudulent ticket (which is what it amounts to) they should be reported to the prosecutions department and dealt with that way. If they prove their age later in the process so be it...

I consider that to be the most appropriate solution. It avoids any arguments over a supposed duty of care (even if the passenger is somewhat over 15 years old), etc.

 

[paddington]

Personal answer as a ticket inspector? I don't bother. Not my problem and I don't worry about it. If someone comes up with a way to make it easier to tell then fine, or unless the passenger is spectacularly stupid like showing a driving licence in a purse while fishing their ticket out, or drinking alcohol on board on a child ticket in which case I don't hesitate to punish them for it.

Agreed and I apply the same logic when selling tickets.

So if ticket sellers and ticket inspectors don't bother, then who should bother [about checking that people on child tickets are really children]?

 

[matt_world2004]

Would the daily mail have produced this story if it was a council estate child probably not.

 

[Merseysider]

Would the daily mail have produced this story if it was a council estate child probably not.

They might have done but it wouldn’t have been as ‘outraged’; they do love a good dig at the railways

 

[Tetchytyke]

Surely the common sense approach here would be to give person the benefit of the doubt and let them travel rather than leaving them stranded at Euston station.

The barrier staff at London Euston are well known for being petty, spiteful and vindictive. There have been countless examples of similar behaviour, both on these boards and elsewhere. I've had the pleasure of the experience before when trying to travel on the WCML after disruption on the ECML, so for once I will take a story in the Daily Mail completely at face value. The only difference between this story and other experiences is that they picked on a wealthy person who has the contacts and the clout to embarrass them.

Clearly Virgin Trains are not sorry that this happened, because it happens all the time at London Euston. They're just sorry that they got caught this time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it? I encounter a large number of people at my humble station who don't even want to buy a ticket for their children aged 5-10, sometimes 11-15. Can you imagine the furore if they were made to get photocards for them all?! Not sure the railways want that kind of headache!

You could I suppose follow the other line and make children free with accompanying adults (but adult fare if alone), effectively replacing the Family Railcard. A bit more comparable to car travel. But you'd still need proof they were children, hence the TfL scheme.

 

[Tetchytyke]

If they prove their age later in the process so be it, but it's naïve to imagine that most young people have no way of proving their age.

Most young people won't routinely have proof of age on them. You're not going to send your kid out for the day with their passport, just in case some jobsworth at London Euston gets a bee in their bonnet.

What else is there? It's easy to prove you're an adult, if you need to- driving licence, credit card- but actually quite difficult to prove you're a child. Most ID is only issued to someone when they become an adult. Trying to prove childhood is, very often, trying to prove a negative.

As you say, if you suspect they're not a child then you take their details and get the proof later. You don't strand a child a long way from home. Sadly, as I said above, my experiences of London Euston staff is that common sense is often in very short supply, especially with the ones in red uniforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of the Euston staff I got a proper sneer from one of them yesterday for having the temerity to use a ticket to MKC with Network Railcard on one of their trains. He didn't say anything but the disdain was palpable. I was amazed I didn't get an earful for using RTT to find the platform and wait on the ramp before the hordes descended.

 

[matt_world2004]

They might have done but it wouldn’t have been as ‘outraged’; they do love a good dig at the railways

They are more outraged by lower/working class youth. Infact positively distainful about them

 

[shredder1]

I think it would be reasonable for the child to have carried an ID card of types if they look older that their years. I always get asked to produce my senior railcard, obviously because I look so much younger than my years

 

[SaveECRewards]

I think it would be reasonable for the child to have carried an ID card of types if they look older that their years. I always get asked to produce my senior railcard, obviously because I look so much younger than my years

The senior railcard is a product you need to buy. Even if you looked 120 they should still asked to see it.

I've always thought not having any national way that's required to prove your age has always been a loophole that some people have exploited. But as with any loophole unless the passenger somehow lets slip they're really 16+ then they have to give them the benefit of the doubt if doing otherwise would cause them to miss their train.

 

[matt_world2004]

The senior railcard is a product you need to buy. Even if you looked 120 they should still asked to see it.

I've always thought not having any national way that's required to prove your age has always been a loophole that some people have exploited. But as with any loophole unless the passenger somehow lets slip they're really 16+ then they have to give them the benefit of the doubt if doing otherwise would cause them to miss their train.

I saw on the gwr program the rpis phoning up guardians to check ages again not perfect but better than nothing.

 

[shredder1]

The senior railcard is a product you need to buy. Even if you looked 120 they should still asked to see it.

Go on, dissolution me

 

[WelshBluebird]

So I had experience of this 12 years ago when I was 15. A while ago, so I had hoped things had changed. But I was challenged about having a child ticket, because shock horror, I had a bad cough. The member of staff was convinced that my cough was a smokers cough and that meant I was 16 or over. Because of course children can't get bad coughs! It was insane. Took about 10 minutes for him to drop it and let me through.

Child-rate Photocards are already obtainable from ticket offices free of charge. No additional administration required.

Has that always been the case? Certainly in the case that I explained just above nothing like that was ever mentioned as a possibility. Was just told "I don't believe you are 15 so you should pay an adult fare". But yeah I think this is the real answer to this.

Sorry but I couldn't disagree more with that. It's been a rule at least since I was 11 (and that's a long time ago now) here in Greater Manchester that you must have proof of age ID to be entitled to pay child fares on public transport. The ID is available free, with a photo, on production of the child's birth certificate.
I've seen similar schemes in other areas too.

But isn't that the problem? That the schemes are regional. Granted this was 12 years ago now, but when I was 15 there was no local scheme like that where I lived.

they should be reported to the prosecutions department and dealt with that way. If they prove their age later in the process so be it, but it's naïve to imagine that most young people have no way of proving their age.

When I was under 16 the only ways of proving my age I had were my passport and my birth certificate. Do you really think it is sensible for a child to have to carry one of those important documents with them any time they may travel by train?

I think it would be reasonable for the child to have carried an ID card of types

What ID card would that be then? Considering most children do not have ID cards they can easily carry with them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I was under 16 the only ways of proving my age I had were my passport and my birth certificate. Do you really think it is sensible for a child to have to carry one of those important documents with them any time they may travel by train?

I carried my birth certificate from about 14 onwards. Plenty of young adults carry passports as ID for drinking.

In 2017 rather than 1994...a colour copy of both on the same sheet would probably convince all but the most stubborn member of staff. Yes, it could be faked, but at that age I bet few would think of it.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I carried my birth certificate from about 14 onwards. Plenty of young adults carry passports as ID for drinking.

In 2017 rather than 1994...a colour copy of both on the same sheet would probably convince all but the most stubborn member of staff. Yes, it could be faked, but at that age I bet few would think of it.

Well personally I think the idea that you have to carry around such an important document just to get the fare you are entitled to is insane. Quite a lot of places will only accept original copies of birth certificates so losing that would be a right pain (thankfully, its only a tenner, but still). Photocopies - well that is the problem isn't it, a guard could easily take a dislike to that! As for passports, even a child one is £50 to replace and anyone who carries around an adult one just to go drinking is being stupid IMO considering its over £70 to replace (for that, if you are eligible for one, a provisional driving licence is a much better option).

What is needed is a nationwide scheme where there is the option of a railway issued card that says you are allowed child fares as bb21 describes.

 

[robbeech]

So to clarify, is it a Law as such that they must be given the benefit of the doubt if it cannot be proved either way, or is it TOC specific rules, or just common sense? and if the former, what is the course of action if a guard refuses to allow boarding? What are the repercussions for the guard (or other member of staff) in question?

I'm all for the idea of an ID card that is free for youngsters as this could be used to get cheaper tickets in cinemas or other establishments too which i know suffers from similar issues (all be it not leaving people stranded). I'd hope there was an electronic version implemented too. A child is more likely to lose or forget an id card than a mobile phone so they really ought to have both. I appreciate neither is an overnight implementation and current products are likely sufficient for most applications, if they were widely publicised.

 

[neilmc]

Problem is, British people have decisively rejected having identity cards such as is common throughout Europe - the pilot scheme was effectively scrapped in 2011 - and thus there is no recognised form of ID for teenagers. Indeed, if adults don't feel that they need to carry around ID at all times I can't see how we can inflict it on our children when there is no legal requirement to do so and it is NOT compulsory for a 15-year-old to constantly prove their age.

So this act of the Virgin employee remains a disgraceful case of wilful child endangerment, he should know that all kinds of unsavoury characters hang around London main line stations; it seems she was saved by Twitter pressure and not by any rail employee stepping up and being responsible. If she'd not been from an influential family and not well-connected technically we could be looking at a tragedy.

 

[Tetchytyke]

But isn't that the problem? That the schemes are regional. Granted this was 12 years ago now, but when I was 15 there was no local scheme like that where I lived.

All the schemes are regional, and they all have different rules. When I was growing up in West Yorkshire I was entitled to a concessionary child fare pass when I was in 6th form, I was well over 18 when it expired when I left school.

In other parts of the country child fares are charged at different times. On the railways it's 16. On TfL it's either 16 or 18. In West Yorkshire it is under 19. In Tyne and Wear it is either 16 or 18- if you live in Tyne and Wear- but if you're not a Tyne and Wear resident you'll be charged an adult fare at 14 (or if you "look 14"!).

Even the idea of an ID card for concessionary travel won't work, because everyone has a different rule.

The trouble is that it's easy to prove you're an adult, and in most walks of life absence of proof means you won't be treated as an adult. In this case absence of proof means you will be treated as an adult.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Problem is, British people have decisively rejected having identity cards such as is common throughout Europe - the pilot scheme was effectively scrapped in 2011 - and thus there is no recognised form of ID for teenagers. Indeed, if adults don't feel that they need to carry around ID at all times I can't see how we can inflict it on our children when there is no legal requirement to do so and it is NOT compulsory for a 15-year-old to constantly prove their age.

If you want to receive a discretionary[1] discount based on your age, why is it not reasonable to ask you to prove it? You have the option, if you would prefer, not to prove it and thus not to receive the discount.

[1] Probably not optional in the franchise agreements, but I doubt there is any statutory requirement to offer it overall.

 

[sefton]

If I could be arsed I am sure that 5 minutes on Facebook would produce some pictures to determine if the inspector's opinion was justified or not.

The inspector's opinion is irrelevant. It is facts that are relevant.

The child had a valid ticket and the member of staff breached the contract with their customer which permitted them to travel for no good reason. Hence the grovelling apology and the goodwill gesture once the company realised the mistake their employee had made.

If the train companies require their customers to hold some sort of proof that validates the ticket, then they need to say so. If they don't that is their problem, not their customer's.

 

[shredder1]

So I had experience of this 12 years ago when I was 15. A while ago, so I had hoped things had changed. But I was challenged about having a child ticket, because shock horror, I had a bad cough. The member of staff was convinced that my cough was a smokers cough and that meant I was 16 or over. Because of course children can't get bad coughs! It was insane. Took about 10 minutes for him to drop it and let me through.



Has that always been the case? Certainly in the case that I explained just above nothing like that was ever mentioned as a possibility. Was just told "I don't believe you are 15 so you should pay an adult fare". But yeah I think this is the real answer to this.



But isn't that the problem? That the schemes are regional. Granted this was 12 years ago now, but when I was 15 there was no local scheme like that where I lived.



When I was under 16 the only ways of proving my age I had were my passport and my birth certificate. Do you really think it is sensible for a child to have to carry one of those important documents with them any time they may travel by train?



What ID card would that be then? Considering most children do not have ID cards they can easily carry with them.

Look above for one example^^^

 

[JBuchananGB]

I recall that in the 60s when travelling on my own from Gidea Park to Uckfield and other routes I carried my birth certificate as proof of age, when at the time the age threshold to require an adult ticket was 14, and I was holding a child ticket. that would have been 1965 when I was 12-13 years old. I was however nearly 6ft tall.

 

[greyman42]

Honestly, the bottom line for me is that if a RPI reasonably believes they're travelling on a fraudulent ticket (which is what it amounts to) they should be reported to the prosecutions department and dealt with that way. If they prove their age later in the process so be it, but it's naïve to imagine that most young people have no way of proving their age.
As others have said, national free proof of age card would easily solve the problem and since it would effectively eliminate false purchasing of child tickets I expect it would easily pay for itself.

Edit: actually I personally wouldn't object to all deliberate fare evaders being lined up and shot, which would soon sort out the problem... but that's probably just me

Is it an offence to ATTEMPT to travel on a fraudulent ticket?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it an offence to ATTEMPT to travel on a fraudulent ticket?

"Travels or attempts to travel..." is the actual wording used in the Act.