How can you tell how old a child is?

[mwmbwls]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/child-ticket-proof.81798/#post-1416465

This topic has been covered before.

But today in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5179307/Timpsons-boss-slams-Virgin-Trains-stranding-girl-15.html

The ticket inspector refused access to a millionaire’s daughter and the ordure hit the rotating ventilator.

Virgin, however, quickly saw the light.

“A spokeswoman for Virgin Trains said: 'Customers under the age of 16 are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on fares and }we do recommend that if a child looks older then it may be appropriate for proof of age to be carried when travelling”.

'We're sorry for the experience of Mr Timpson and his daughter and we are in touch with them so we can look into this properly and offer a gesture of goodwill.'

Mr Timpson later revealed that he has written to the CEO of Virgin Trains, Tony Collins, asking to meet and discuss child safety.

He wrote on Twitter: 'Thanks to everyone in Twitterland for their support during our daughters nightmare with Virgin Rail.

'I have written to the CEO requesting a meeting to discuss their Child Safeguarding policies and how under 16’s are treated. Kindness is not a sign of weakness.'

Now this a very particular set of circumstance but are numbers kept of the number of times this occurs throughout the Network? Is this a generic issue requiring a policy response?

A recommendation is not by definition enforceable. Tucking a proof of age requirement away in a set of obscure conditions of travel is also not going to wash.

There is also a biological issue with the declining age of puberty which means that children can now look older than they are.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset

Add this to changing tastes in children’s clothing and the TOCs and the front-line staff are on a hiding to nothing,

 

[Bletchleyite]

The obvious answer to this is a mandatory national Child Photocard along the lines of the TfL schemes.

I used to (in the 1990s) carry a copy of my birth certificate (I'm tall so despite being a bit baby faced people tended to think I'm older than I am). So nothing new here

 

[mwmbwls]

The obvious answer to this is a mandatory national Child Photocard along the lines of the TfL schemes.

I used to (in the 1990s) carry a copy of my birth certificate (I'm tall so despite being a bit baby faced people tended to think I'm older than I am). So nothing new here

Excellent idea. Are these issued free like ENCTS passes or is there a charge?

A mobile phone based application might be popular.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I *think* it's free.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards

 

[AngusH]

"don't guess wrongly" would be the obvious answer.

It's not a gesture of "goodwill" though, it's an absolute apology for their failure.

If they aren't sure they must give the benefit of the doubt, even if it means financial loss as a result. This outcome is absolutely wrong.

 

[greyman42]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/child-ticket-proof.81798/#post-1416465

This topic has been covered before.

But today in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5179307/Timpsons-boss-slams-Virgin-Trains-stranding-girl-15.html

The ticket inspector refused access to a millionaire’s daughter and the ordure hit the rotating ventilator.

Virgin, however, quickly saw the light.

“A spokeswoman for Virgin Trains said: 'Customers under the age of 16 are eligible for a 50 per cent discount on fares and }we do recommend that if a child looks older then it may be appropriate for proof of age to be carried when travelling”.

'We're sorry for the experience of Mr Timpson and his daughter and we are in touch with them so we can look into this properly and offer a gesture of goodwill.'

Mr Timpson later revealed that he has written to the CEO of Virgin Trains, Tony Collins, asking to meet and discuss child safety.

He wrote on Twitter: 'Thanks to everyone in Twitterland for their support during our daughters nightmare with Virgin Rail.

'I have written to the CEO requesting a meeting to discuss their Child Safeguarding policies and how under 16’s are treated. Kindness is not a sign of weakness.'

Now this a very particular set of circumstance but are numbers kept of the number of times this occurs throughout the Network? Is this a generic issue requiring a policy response?

A recommendation is not by definition enforceable. Tucking a proof of age requirement away in a set of obscure conditions of travel is also not going to wash.

There is also a biological issue with the declining age of puberty which means that children can now look older than they are.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset

Add this to changing tastes in children’s clothing and the TOCs and the front-line staff are on a hiding to nothing,

Surely the common sense approach here would be to give person the benefit of the doubt and let them travel rather than leaving them stranded at Euston station. It should of occurred to the member of staff that if the person was under 16 then the incident would probably end up attracting bad publicity or was the member of staff simply doing what they are trained to do?

 

[AngusH]

Given that even government experts have difficulty judging ages after in person and medical examination,
to ask essentially untrained gate line and ticket inspection staff to make judgements is useless ill-advised.

edit: Where training in this context is some type of medical or scientific training.

 

[sefton]

Surely the common sense approach here would be to give person the benefit of the doubt and let them travel rather than leaving them stranded at Euston station. It should of occurred to the member of staff that if the person was under 16 then the incident would probably end up attracting bad publicity or was the member of staff simply doing what they are trained to do?

Of course it would be the common sense approach, and now their employer has looked stupid in the press and had to go grovelling, apologising to the father and make a "gesture of goodwill" to the daughter.

However is there any downside to the member of staff taking t

 

[sefton]

Surely the common sense approach here would be to give person the benefit of the doubt and let them travel rather than leaving them stranded at Euston station. It should of occurred to the member of staff that if the person was under 16 then the incident would probably end up attracting bad publicity or was the member of staff simply doing what they are trained to do?

Of course it would have been the common sense approach, and now their employer has looked stupid in the press and had to go grovelling, apologising to the father and make a "gesture of goodwill" to the daughter.

However is there any downside to the member of staff making that poor decision.

 

[greyman42]

Of course it would have been the common sense approach, and now their employer has looked stupid in the press and had to go grovelling, apologising to the father and make a "gesture of goodwill" to the daughter.

However is there any downside to the member of staff making that poor decision.

I think your reply states the downside, or have I miss-understood you?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

The obvious answer to this is a mandatory national Child Photocard along the lines of the TfL schemes.

..and who's going to pay to administer that ? The rest of us through increased fares? Much much simpler answer - abolish child rate fares and reduce fares for everyone.

 

[LowLevel]

I am much older than 18 yet I regularly get ID'd for purchases. Telling ages is a minefield.

Personal answer as a ticket inspector? I don't bother. Not my problem and I don't worry about it. If someone comes up with a way to make it easier to tell then fine, or unless the passenger is spectacularly stupid like showing a driving licence in a purse while fishing their ticket out, or drinking alcohol on board on a child ticket in which case I don't hesitate to punish them for it.

 

[bb21]

..and who's going to pay to administer that ? The rest of us through increased fares? Much much simpler answer - abolish child rate fares and reduce fares for everyone.

Child-rate Photocards are already obtainable from ticket offices free of charge. No additional administration required.

I am much older than 18 yet I regularly get ID'd for purchases. Telling ages is a minefield.

Personal answer as a ticket inspector? I don't bother. Not my problem and I don't worry about it. If someone comes up with a way to make it easier to tell then fine, or unless the passenger is spectacularly stupid like showing a driving licence in a purse while fishing their ticket out, or drinking alcohol on board on a child ticket in which case I don't hesitate to punish them for it.

... is the correct answer.

 

[robbeech]

I am much older than 18 yet I regularly get ID'd for purchases. Telling ages is a minefield.

Personal answer as a ticket inspector? I don't bother. Not my problem and I don't worry about it. If someone comes up with a way to make it easier to tell then fine, or unless the passenger is spectacularly stupid like showing a driving licence in a purse while fishing their ticket out, or drinking alcohol on board on a child ticket in which case I don't hesitate to punish them for it.

The number of people that will get a child fare on trains and buses whilst dressed up to go and enter an establishment that does not allow people under 18 is part of why this issue exists i suppose. The person is likely 16 or 17 so qualifies for neither reduced fares at the child rate, or entry to the venue yet they will regularly get away with both.

 

[PeterC]

I remember a group of us going into a pub back in the 60s. We pushed the only lad who was over 18 to the front, the landlord took one look at him and threw us all out. At the next pub we pushed him to the back and all got served.

I do notice that the Daily Wail included photos of her father, mother and grandparents but not one of the big little girl.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Common sense approach is to apply the is school out test!

Can I have a child return to..... At 0940 on a school day then if there's any doubt you can question away as they shouldn't be there anyway. Caught a few out like that. Why aren't you at school? I work mate...then your over 16 then! Wearing school uniform and parent buying could be valid reason hospital/dental appointment.

The most blatant attempts tend to be internet buyers as they can click without any check. As we don't have a TVM at Newtown they have to come in booking office. I've seen as Asian women in her 30's collect a child ticket and then board with no sign of child about.

 

[PeterC]

Common sense approach is to apply the is school out test!
.SNIP....... Wearing school uniform and parent buying could be valid reason hospital/dental appointment...../SNIP....

Parent buying? I was making my own way to and from the dentist at 13.

 

[Darandio]

Why aren't you at school? I work mate...then your over 16 then!

I left school and started work at 15, just saying!

Maybe I am still old fashioned, but there is absolutely no chance I would allow my 15 year old to make this journey alone in the first place.

 

[fowler9]

Cut them in half and count the rings, only way to be sure. Or is that trees? Apologies, poor joke. Work out if it would cost more to produce a card with your date of birth on than you would loose in lost revenue. If the cards cost less then produce them.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I left school and started work at 15, just saying!

Maybe I am still old fashioned, but there is absolutely no chance I would allow my 15 year old to make this journey alone in the first place.

I use to do Caersws to Birmingham New St on my own at 11 to visit grandparents I had my Rail Riders stuff as ID! That's when most trains were change at Shrewsbury to.

 

[roversfan2001]

Being quite a young-looking 16 year old, I could well get away with child fares if I so wished (I have a 16-25 Railcard so I don't, why would I after buying that?), along with my friends (who usually buy child tickets). I've asked them why they don't just buy a railcard and avoid the potential consequences and they just answer "cos I'm not gonna get found out innit", so based on that (albeit small) anecdote, child-rate photocards being mandatory (like they are in some areas if you look over a certain age) would go a long way to wiping out the problem.

 

[neilmc]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a youngster of 15 to travel around the rail network unaccompanied. I used to do so. But I was never put in danger by an irresponsible rail employee refusing me access with a perfectly valid ticket.

 

[GW43125]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a youngster of 15 to travel around the rail network unaccompanied. I used to do so. But I was never put in danger by an irresponsible rail employee refusing me access with a perfectly valid ticket.

I did the exact same. I had a child rate photocard once I turned 15 but despite carrying it, I was stopped at the gateline. They refused to accept I was 15 (I was 6'2" at the time and in a suit) and overall it was not fun. In the end I walked off so as not to miss my bus.

 

[PeterC]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a youngster of 15 to travel around the rail network unaccompanied. I used to do so. But I was never put in danger by an irresponsible rail employee refusing me access with a perfectly valid ticket.

So did I

 

[Mathew S]

"don't guess wrongly" would be the obvious answer.

It's not a gesture of "goodwill" though, it's an absolute apology for their failure.

If they aren't sure they must give the benefit of the doubt, even if it means financial loss as a result. This outcome is absolutely wrong.

Sorry but I couldn't disagree more with that. It's been a rule at least since I was 11 (and that's a long time ago now) here in Greater Manchester that you must have proof of age ID to be entitled to pay child fares on public transport. The ID is available free, with a photo, on production of the child's birth certificate.
I've seen similar schemes in other areas too.
It's the passenger's responsibility to prove they're entitled to the discount, and that's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[MikeWh]

I *think* it's free.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/travel-for-under-18s/zip-oyster-photocards

Sadly not. £10 for 5-10, £15 for 11-15 and £20 for 16-18.

 

[philthetube]

As staff, plenty of ways to catch people out, date of birth, which pub you visited, been to the cinema, what film did you see etc, but at the end you have to accept the stated age if they cannot be caught out.

 

[AngusH]

No, I disagree with you

No I disagree with you about proof of age requirement

That may be the case in Manchester for purely local travel and it's possible it should be the case in general.
However it isn't part of the national conditions of travel.

The closest you can get is this line on national rail:

"If the child looks 16 or over, it may be appropriate for proof of age to be carried when purchasing the ticket and also when travelling to avoid embarrassment."

But that website isn't part of the agreement when buying a ticket.
"Embarrassment" is also different from "will be denied travel" unless presented.

It's also a subjective

I'm happy to be corrected if someone can point out an age and id requirement that is shown prior to purchase.


edit: It may also be correct to deny selling a ticket, but not to stop travel half way through.

 

[Mathew S]

No, I disagree with you

No I disagree with you about proof of age requirement

That may be the case in Manchester for purely local travel and it's possible it should be the case in general.
However it isn't part of the national conditions of travel.

The closest you can get is this line on national rail:

"If the child looks 16 or over, it may be appropriate for proof of age to be carried when purchasing the ticket and also when travelling to avoid embarrassment."

But that website isn't part of the agreement when buying a ticket.
"Embarrassment" is also different from "will be denied travel" unless presented.

It's also a subjective

I'm happy to be corrected if someone can point out an age and id requirement that is shown prior to purchase.


edit: It may also be correct to deny selling a ticket, but not to stop travel half way through.

Honestly, the bottom line for me is that if a RPI reasonably believes they're travelling on a fraudulent ticket (which is what it amounts to) they should be reported to the prosecutions department and dealt with that way. If they prove their age later in the process so be it, but it's naïve to imagine that most young people have no way of proving their age.
As others have said, national free proof of age card would easily solve the problem and since it would effectively eliminate false purchasing of child tickets I expect it would easily pay for itself.

Edit: actually I personally wouldn't object to all deliberate fare evaders being lined up and shot, which would soon sort out the problem... but that's probably just me

 

[Bletchleyite]

So did I

And me, though within limits. I wasn't allowed to go to London on my own until quite a bit later.