How can you tell how old a child is?

[sefton]

But given the difficulty in judging the age of a 15 year old could the RPI actually pass the "reasonably suspected" test to ask for their details.

The test is not just whether the RPI suspected, but whether that suspicion was reasonable. If it is accepted it is difficult or impossible to judge the real age of 15 year olds with any accuracy, then can any suspicion only from looking at someone be reasonable.

 

[greyman42]

"Travels or attempts to travel..." is the actual wording used in the Act.

So the member of staff should of simply of had the girl arrested and then let justice take its course. Unless the member of staff did not fancy this course of action because they were not sure of the girls age, in which case the benefit of doubt surely applies. It makes me think that #41 has some truth in it.

 

[shredder1]

I remember catching a local bus with a mate back in the 60`s, we were going ratting up the canal, we both had double barrelled 12 bore shots guns and crossed Mexican styled cartridge belts across our chests and a bottle of cider in our hands, we were 14 at the time and asked for 2 halves, the bus conductor smiled and gave then to us.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Child-rate Photocards are already obtainable from ticket offices free of charge. No additional administration required.


.

.. free of charge to the recipients maybe - but not to the already overburdened London council tax payers who foot the bill for it.

 

[Master29]

Wouldn`t have even been discussed here had this ""millionares"" daughter been anyone else.

 

[sheff1]

The test is not just whether the RPI suspected, but whether that suspicion was reasonable. If it is accepted it is difficult or impossible to judge the real age of 15 year olds with any accuracy, then can any suspicion only from looking at someone be reasonable.

I argue it cannot. If it is accepted that it is difficult or impossible to judge the real age of a child by looking at them, then becoming suspicious of a child merely by looking at them is not reasonable.

However, many reports suggest that Euston gateline staff regularly claim 100% valid adult tickets are invalid, merely by looking, so unreasonable behaviour seems common there.

 

[BigCj34]

If the railway is serious about clamping down on anyone over 16 buying child's tickets then the only solution is a railway issued card for minors, possibly for anyone aged 11-15. Realistically no minor is going to carry around an ID to prove they are under a certain age (unless they look substantially older for their age), and judging if someone is 15 or 16 is extremely difficult. Otherwise, ticket vendors and inspectors will have to accept that 16 year olds may buy child tickets to avoid minors being forced to buy an adult fare.

There is a reason most if not all alcohol vendors operate an under 25 ID policy, as discerning if someone is 18 or not is very difficult.

 

[35B]

When I was in my early teens, revenue staff had perfectly valid reason to query my age. I was taller than most of them, and did not look like a child. It was no hardship to carry a child rate photo card, and there were a couple of times when I wished it had been a BR scheme rather than just London Transport, who made it mandatory for 14 & 15 year olds. And by the time I turned 16, I had travelled unaccompanied over most of the network.

However, railway staff also applied common sense and reasonableness to me, something that appears to have been missing in this case.

 

[Silver Cobra]

Common sense approach is to apply the is school out test!

Can I have a child return to..... At 0940 on a school day then if there's any doubt you can question away as they shouldn't be there anyway. Caught a few out like that. Why aren't you at school? I work mate...then your over 16 then! Wearing school uniform and parent buying could be valid reason hospital/dental appointment.

While not involving trains, around 6 months ago I witnessed a Stagecoach bus driver on a weekday early afternoon service from Northampton to Bedford refusing to sell a lad a child ticket because he wasn't wearing any school uniform. It was around the time the schools would have just finished for the day, so I guess it's understandable why he would question the fact he's not in his uniform if he's a child. The lad was adamant he was under 16, but the driver wouldn't accept it due to the lack of uniform. In the end the lad stormed off effing and jeffing at the driver.

 

[Andrew1395]

When I worked the barriers at Euston (over 30 years ago), if you doubted the validity of a ticket for a minor, you retained the original and issued a free excess, taking contact details. Nowadays virtually everyone has a mobile phone. Ask the child for an adult who can verify their age (parent, etc) and ring them on the spot.

 

[Temple Meads]

Children who are home schooled won't have uniform and often don't have to follow usual school hours, I would expect most to explain that if challenged about their eligibility for child discounts though.

I was such a child and one who did quite a lot of travel during school times too, but I never had any problems. There were one or two occasions in the evening where guards didn't believe I was under 16, so I made a photocopy of my birth certificate, but I don't think I ever had to show it for travel purposes in the end, it's still in my wallet now, about 6 years later!

 

[185143]

I had good fun when I was 14/15...

I looked (and still do 2/3 years later) a fair bit older than I am. It was horrendous at times, if I wasn't travelling locally (where a lot of guards either know me or can't be bothered going through the train) then I could spend days literally being challenged every half an hour or so.

I used the train to school so had a child rate photocard which I carried at all times (and used pretty much 363 days a year!) So never actually got made to pay full fare-but let me put it this way, I got so sick of being accused of being a liar every other day, I actually looked into getting a 16-25 railcard BEFORE I turned 16! And yes, the reactions from staff varied between 'how old are you please?' To a point blank 'You're lying, you're definately over 16 mate'

My absolute favourite argument though was in the Cardiff Valleys:

Guard: 'Tickets please'
Hands over a child Valley Lines Explorer
Guard: 'How old are you...?'
Me: '15'
Guard: 'Hmm... Have you got any ID please?'
Pulls out season ticket and shows the photocard
Me: 'Yep, here you go'
Guard: (direct quote) 'But having that doesn't prove you're under 16 though does it?'

No words. Literally no words...

I also had a couple of arguments with staff who, upon finding they couldn't do me for my age, would try and find anything and everything else to argue with!

And more recently I had a bus driver the other day question me pulling out an under 19s bus ticket. He asked how old I was, I said 17 and offered to show ID but he just laughed and said it was fine.

On the subject of Euston barrier staff, they even like to be difficult with other rail staff! I know of someone who arrived into London earlier than planned and faced a lot of hassle trying to get through to have a word with the guard. This was for the very last train of the night too... if they'll have attitude with other TOC's staff then us passengers have no chance!

 

[alxndr]

I look much younger than I am, but it just proves that you can't judge age by appearance. At 17 I was often sold child's tickets without asking for them when I used to have to buy on board, and to be perfectly honest, at 21 if I had a good shave I could probably get away with it now with little argument, I was recently IDed for a lottery ticket without doing so!

As far as I can see, the options are:

1. Give people the benefit of the doubt and accept that they'll loose some money. Perhaps chase up particular concerns at a later date.
2. Require all children to carry a form of ID (passport/PASS card/etc).
3. Require all children to carry a good, clear photocopy of ID.
   
4. Introduce a railway photocard or app.

Of the above, I think either the first or last options are really the only sensible ones.

 

[sefton]

When I worked the barriers at Euston (over 30 years ago), if you doubted the validity of a ticket for a minor, you retained the original and issued a free excess, taking contact details.

Maybe that was acceptable in the past, but what is the legal justification to do that now.

Nowadays virtually everyone has a mobile phone. Ask the child for an adult who can verify their age (parent, etc) and ring them on the spot.

But what is your legal justification to ask.

If railway companies want to ensure only children travel on child fares then the solution is in their hands; change the rules and issue mandatory ID cards.

If they don't want to do that then they need to comply with the rules that do exist and ensure their employees stick to them.

 

[A Challenge]

I remember someone telling me that their mum got sold at a ticket office a child rate ticket at the age of 22 back in BR, but then she is very short so it makes sense if her mum was as well, on the rare occasion I did travel on my own and bought from a ticket office not a machine I got asked though!

 

[6Gman]

Wouldn`t have even been discussed here had this ""millionares"" daughter been anyone else.

Oh I think it would.

 

[221129]

.. free of charge to the recipients maybe - but not to the already overburdened London council tax payers who foot the bill for it.

What nonsense. What London tax payers have to do with it I'm not sure? All tax payers fund the railway not just London based ones.

 

[221129]

Maybe that was acceptable in the past, but what is the legal justification to do that now.



But what is your legal justification to ask

It's the Regulation of Railways act and is an offence not to provide details.

 

[Fiyero]

Writing 'not a child' on the ticket but leaving it with her seems odd to me. It's a long time since I've travelled on a child ticket and I was never challenged on my age but it seems odd.

 

[Mathew S]

Maybe that was acceptable in the past, but what is the legal justification to do that now.



But what is your legal justification to ask.

If railway companies want to ensure only children travel on child fares then the solution is in their hands; change the rules and issue mandatory ID cards.

If they don't want to do that then they need to comply with the rules that do exist and ensure their employees stick to them.

The legal justification is to prevent a criminal act. No more justification required. Though I can't imagine many busy staff on a gateline doing this. That said, seems like a good way to catch out passengers who are trying it on and who might well cave if challenged in this way.

 

[greyman42]

I look much younger than I am, but it just proves that you can't judge age by appearance. At 17 I was often sold child's tickets without asking for them when I used to have to buy on board, and to be perfectly honest, at 21 if I had a good shave I could probably get away with it now with little argument, I was recently IDed for a lottery ticket without doing so!

As far as I can see, the options are:

1. Give people the benefit of the doubt and accept that they'll loose some money. Perhaps chase up particular concerns at a later date.
2. Require all children to carry a form of ID (passport/PASS card/etc).
3. Require all children to carry a good, clear photocopy of ID.
   
4. Introduce a railway photocard or app.

Of the above, I think either the first or last options are really the only sensible ones.

Other options:
5. Refuse the person carriage.
6. Request presence of B.T.P.

 

[221129]

Other options:
5. Refuse the person carriage.
6. Request presence of B.T.P.

Neither of these are serious consideration.

 

[greyman42]

Neither of these are serious consideration.

Why? If a person has not got a valid ticket then surely you can refuse to let them travel.
If a person is attempting to commit fraud then surely you can call the B.T.P.

 

[221129]

Why? If a person has not got a valid ticket then surely you can refuse to let them travel.
If a person is attempting to commit fraud then surely you can call the B.T.P.

Refusing to let them travel is the issue being discussed here and is not a good idea and BTP are as useful as a chocolate fireguard

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What nonsense. What London tax payers have to do with it I'm not sure? All tax payers fund the railway not just London based ones.

It was in response to the poster mentioning the London child oystercard as a means of ID - that is funded by London taxpayers - and national taxpayers as they also help to fund TfL.

What nonsense. What London tax payers have to do with it I'm not sure? All tax payers fund the railway not just London based ones.

Try reading the related parts of the thread before making any comment and discounting people's comments as nonsense. Do you work for The Sun ?

 

[Busaholic]

In response to the original question, demand the extraction of a tooth (if they haven't got any yet they MAY be excused, but don't bank on it) and get it sent off for analysis. Nothing, but nothing, must stand in the way of a TOC achieving maximum possible muneration for any given journey.

 

[185]

In one sentence.... "are you under 19 how old are you?"

Reply....."errr.. eighteen?"

PING! Your name please..... :P

 

[Mutant Lemming]

As mentioned earlier the simple solution is a simplified fares structure - one fare for all with no discounts, reductions etc etc no need for any specialised cards just a straightforward fare for distance travelled applicable to everyone maybe apart from babes in arms not occupying a seat (okay so am sure there would be some attempts at 25 year old babes in arms).

 

[sefton]

The legal justification is to prevent a criminal act. No more justification required. Though I can't imagine many busy staff on a gateline doing this. That said, seems like a good way to catch out passengers who are trying it on and who might well cave if challenged in this way.

Demanding information that a customer isn't required to provide isn't acceptable.

Either apply the legislation as it stands or don't do anything. Making things up as you go along isn't acceptable.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/child-ticket-proof.81798/#post-1416465

This topic has been covered before.

But today in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5179307/Timpsons-boss-slams-Virgin-Trains-stranding-girl-15.html


https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/oct/21/puberty-adolescence-childhood-onset

Add this to changing tastes in children’s clothing and the TOCs and the front-line staff are on a hiding to nothing,

I wondered when this would appear on the forum. I knew it would!

When TheAdelante and I go to Glasgow in January we shall bring copies of our passports.

Sad isn’t it, that people should have to do that just to be accepted on board a train.