Fantasy: Given no limits, how would you modernise your line?

[Flying Claret]

I'd extend the metrolink north of Bury to Rawtenstall with a new park & ride station near ewood bridge on the A56. The traffic on that stretch heading into Manc every day is horrendous and getting worse. I' not sure what the ELR would make of it though.

 

[Wirewiper]

I do the penz-pad quite a bit, so I'd say- Idk with enough money you'd get Penzance-Pad down to 4 hours at least, maybe even 3.5 or 3. Of course you'd end up wondering how you've managed to spend like £30bn on changes to a line that would benefit probably at max 1 million people, and not that many train users either.

Yes but those 1 million people includes thee - and me!

OK I'm not proud of myself for doing this, but when all else fails, deploy the DYKWIA argument

 

[QueensCurve]

Reading these forums, I see many fantasy ideas about push-pull 442s saving the nation and it got me thinking; my line (the Furness line) is about to lose its 185s due to the TP North capacity upgrade. So I was thinking; how would I fix it?

I'd work in combination with the Windermere line as well. Splitting and joining of services on this route at Lancaster makes the concept a lot more viable.

In terms of infrastructure, the Furness line suffers from some slow speed limits which could be raised with little work. I think an aim of 60mph between Barrow and Ulverston (where there is a lot of curves as it goes around the Furness peninsula), and 90/100mph between Ulverston and Carnforth would be a reasonable aim. It would also be a good idea to sort out the junction with the WCML at this time, removing the slow flat junction raising the capacity of the WCML at the same time. Electrification would be on the cards as it would allow good use of old EMUs - although Grayling wouldn't be too happy.

Initially (while the work to modernise the infrastructure continues), it would be an aim to give the line 1tph clock face. The line can deal with 3tph in both directions from what I've seen in the current timetable, but a consistent service will help significantly. As electrification comes online, high quality modern EMUs (ideally refurbished 350/2s from WMtrains as they already have the 110mph capability for the WCML) would operate a new service pattern. All times are from Barrow-in-Furness.

xx16: Slow to Preston, calling at all stations
xx46: Semi fast to Manchester Airport, calling at Ulverston, Grange-over-Sands, Arnside, Carnforth, Lancaster (where it joins with another service from Windermere), Preston, Wigan North Western, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly and Manchester Airport.

By having all services on the line at least to Preston, the bay platforms at Lancaster can effectively be decommissioned (with Platform 5 available for Morecambe services). Routing what would be 8 car trains through the busy Wigan-Manchester corridor allows the service to easily cope with demand between what currently is the busiest section on TPEs Manchester-Scotland services. SDO would be installed using the Tracklink system (as used on SWR) allowing shorter dwell times and a more efficient service.

The Cumbrian Coast may become isolated somewhat in terms of no through running on the Furness Line, but a possible extension of Newcastle services may solve this issue. It would be an aim to harmonise Cumbrian Coast services in the new timetable with an easy connection on to the slow service at xx16.

I think I rattled on a bit, but overall it would be my way of sorting out what has the potential to be a relatively busy line. I'm looking forward to seeing some of the ideas that come along, though!

Further north from Barrow, I would:-

• improve linespeeds above the present 60mph.
  
• Faster double single track junction
  
• improved approach control at Park South Junction (does it meet the criteria for no approach control?)
• Further stabilisation of the formation Sellafield/Braystones/Nethertown.
  
• Redoubling Parton to Harrington.
• Second Platform at Maryport
• Higher than 10mph PSR Currock Junction to Carlisle (singling if necessary to achieve this)

My line is the WCML north of Preston. It needs a few more passing loops and the AT system finishing from Springs to at least Great Strickland.

I would also suggest:

• Higher loop turnout speeds.
  
• Higher Turnout speed onto Furness line at Carnforth
  
• Lambrigg fell tunnel
• Shap tunnel
• Penrith avoiding line
• Higher ruling speeds at Carlisle.
• Reinstatement of Carlisle Avoiding Line

 

[Harbouring]

If money was really no issue then a direct bridge or tunnel at Woolston into Southampton to save the slow journey round St Denys. Or more realistically resignalling of Netley Line to improve headway along there.

 

[DanNCL]

No limits?

In that case then I'd like to see both the Tyne Valley Line and the Durham Coast line electrified at 25kV, and spare EMUs (ie 323s, 360s or 379s) rather than more new build ones used to provide services on both lines. I'd also like to see 2tph between Newcastle and Carlisle, and between Newcastle and Middlesbrough.

If the Tyne Valley Line was electrified that would also enable the Metrocentre - Morpeth - Chathill services to be operated by EMUs, and would provide an electrified diversionary route for the ECML

 

[Essexman]

Upminster - Romford.
Convert to trams.
Open two intermediate stops at road crossings.
Extend to Cranham by the LT depot.
Run at 10 - 15 minute frequency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But there still not air conditioned and will slow down services significantly.

If they’re doubled up the added capacity will by far make up for that. I realise they are now a bit dated, but in the 1990s they did a more than acceptable job on the North West Express routes.

 

[PeterC]

Upminster - Romford.
Convert to trams.
Open two intermediate stops at road crossings.
Extend to Cranham by the LT depot.
Run at 10 - 15 minute frequency.

I recall a long discussion on this on District Dave a few years ago. The conclusion was that it would be sensible as part of a wider scheme but Romford - Upminster on its own wouldn't justify the specialist stock.

 

[EssexGonzo]

Shenfield to Liverpool St.

Medium ambitious:
Double decker trains and raise the bridges, wires, everything else.
Signal/cab technology to get the trains closer in the peak.
Replace the trains by 2/1/18 - maximum 4-across seating enabled by the space in the double deckers. Aircon please!!!!

Super ambitious:
Extra pair of tracks/stations all the way in: either above, under or alongside.
Hyperloop technology - 1 minute Shenfield to Liv St?

 

[Agent_Squash]

I would also suggest:

• Higher loop turnout speeds.
  
• Higher Turnout speed onto Furness line at Carnforth
  
• Lambrigg fell tunnel
• Shap tunnel
• Penrith avoiding line
• Higher ruling speeds at Carlisle.
• Reinstatement of Carlisle Avoiding Line

Some good ideas here for the WCML. Would grade separation be reasonable at Carnforth?

 

[Kneedown]

Almost the entire East Midlands is my line, but my wishes are simple. Upgrade all line speeds to 125mph on the Midland mainline, 100mph on inter-urban routes, and 75mph minimum on local routes.
Electrify absolutely everywhere, with entire new fleet across the board.
Redouble any areas of single line.
Reopen Leicester-Burton to passenger trains, and build a spur from East Mid's Parkway to East Mid's Airport.

Not too much to ask for I don't think!

 

[Wirewiper]

Upminster - Romford.
Convert to trams.
Open two intermediate stops at road crossings.
Extend to Cranham by the LT depot.
Run at 10 - 15 minute frequency.

Or - incorporate into a "Thur-Rom Metro" by taking over the Upminster-Grays line (with lots of new tram stops!) then on to Tilbury Ferry - plenty of potential routes for this bit, especially if you allow for street running - and operate the Tilbury-Gravesend ferry as an integral part of the service with through ticketing. It should be easy to construct a light rail flyover at Upminster.

 

[PeterY]

Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey. Passing loop laid at Bricketwood. Then half hourly clock face timetable introduced.

Watford Metropolitan line extension to be built in my lifetime.

8 car trains on WCML for the Tring stoppers.

 

[backontrack]

Given no limits?

A substantial upgrade to full 230km/h on the Stour Valley Line between Ashford and Thanet.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Looking at the Chatham and Dover Main Line.

1. Either reinstate non-stop services between Rochester and Bromley, or have them stop at Swanley instead of Meopham. This would improve links from points east to Sevenoaks, and to St Mary Cray and Bickley. Is it true that the Longfield and Meopham stops were only added to these services to ensure that they were slower than High Speed?

2. Perhaps more controversial, but close Sole Street, and all stations between Faversham and Dover bar Canterbury East and just maybe Aylesham. These stations would never have been built if we were building the line now, and their existence achieves little bar slowing journeys down.

Some main lines did close all their minor stations, and even on here you don't hear very many arguing that stations like Tempsford and Abbotts Ripton should never have closed. The continued existence of stations like Selling and Snowdown is scarcely more defensible.

 

[GW43125]

Some good ideas here for the WCML. Would grade separation be reasonable at Carnforth?

A more simple one for the WCML, approach control on the down main approaching Rugby. Currently the 50mph half-station block at Hilmorton Jn (only really used in disruption or for the odd freight) gets flashers, whereas the 40mph turnouts into platforms 1&2 (now used twice every hour) receive approach control from red. I propose swapping these two sequences as the approach control from red takes a comparatively long time as the signal is a way back, it isn't uncommon for the xx07 Liverpool (fast to Stafford) to be held up as the xx03 Birmingham (calling at Rugby) negotiates the approach control.

 

[BigCj34]

As I am from south Cumbria, I would propose reinstating Penrith Keswick, electrifying the Furness line and rebuilding the platforms at Carnforth. More ambitiously I would suggest reopening the line to Workington, the Coniston branch (potentially using heritage trains and having some services that avoid Barrow to speed up journey times from the WCML), and potentially the long gone Grange-Hincaster loop. Oh, and reinstating the transpennine Union link through Barnard Castle!

 

[QueensCurve]

Some good ideas here for the WCML. Would grade separation be reasonable at Carnforth?

Whether it would be needed I don't know, but if there was no need to stop in Carnforth Station it would be possible to do this as a single track chord off the Leeds line.

As I am from south Cumbria, I would propose reinstating Penrith Keswick, electrifting the Furness line and reubuilding the platforms at Carnforth. More ambitiously I would suggest reopening the line to Workington, the Coniston branch (potentially using heritage trains and having some ervices that avoid Barrow to speed up journey times from the WCML), and potentially the long gone Grange-Hincaster loop. Oh, and reinstating the transpennine Union link through Barnard Castle!

Definitely support the reopenings except Grange to Hincaster. Electification to Windermere of course is also to be wished for. Rebuilding the platforms at Carnforth might facilitate faster services.

 

[BigCj34]

Definitely support the reopenings except Grange to Hincaster. Electification to Windermere of course is also to be wished for. Rebuilding the platforms at Carnforth might facilitate faster services.

A Grange Hincaster link would significantly reduce times from the Furness and Cartmel peninsulas to Kendal and Windermere. Would allow decent commuter benefits for those working in hospitality, where many jobs require a car but they don't pay very well. However I accept there was a reason this closed well before Beeching.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

My local is the Trans-Pennine main line (the real one, not the imposter in the North Midlands! ) so my "mad" improvements would be:
4-tracking from Manchester to York, electrification throughout, grade-separation at all junctions. Alignments arranged to allow active tilt on the curviest sections, modelled on the excellent system in use on the DB Class 612 units. Structures enhanced to allow a less cramped bodyshell profile.
Platforms extended to 10x23m at principal stations, with 6x23m at local stops. 6tph "true" expresses calling at only Huddersfield (Dewsbury and Stalybridge in the peaks) with 4tph "S-bahn" type all-shacks services using modern EMUs with quick acceleration. The Leeds New Line also reopened and treated as part of the West Yorkshire S-Bahn. Ravensthorpe station to close, and no White Rose Centre station to be built. In fact, the entire WRC is levelled and returned to nature for environmental reasons. This results in the TPE Class 88 locomotives being fitted with devices which not only prevent deer being caught under the wheels, but also catch the carcass for the driver's dinner!

 

[jyte]

A more simple one for the WCML, approach control on the down main approaching Rugby. Currently the 50mph half-station block at Hilmorton Jn (only really used in disruption or for the odd freight) gets flashers, whereas the 40mph turnouts into platforms 1&2 (now used twice every hour) receive approach control from red. I propose swapping these two sequences as the approach control from red takes a comparatively long time as the signal is a way back, it isn't uncommon for the xx07 Liverpool (fast to Stafford) to be held up as the xx03 Birmingham (calling at Rugby) negotiates the approach control.

It's even worse than this. The turnout from the DM to Platform 1 at Rugby is 60mph! It's a faster turnout that those at Brinklow and it doesn't have approach control! The last time I took that route to B-ham my Pendelino was reduced to an absolute crawl and the following one didn't exactly fly past as we were stationary in the station either.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

(Re)instate a service Blackburn to Manchester via Bamber Bridge, Lostock Hall, Leyland, Chorley and Bolton so I could walk to a station and get a direct train to Manchester!

 

[pitdiver]

My local line is Thameslink through Flitwick so my wish would be cancel the 2018 timetable changes.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

My local line is Thameslink through Flitwick so my wish would be cancel the 2018 timetable changes.

Bah humbug!

 

[Train man]

Glasgow to Edinburgh via Shotts line.

The improvements I would like to see is:

• More Semi fast services during the evening Friday and Saturdays nights.
• The line should’ve been electrifed when the Edinburgh to Carstairs line was done.
• Upgrade the line for higher speeds.
• Due to the Engneering works to electrify the line. Trains should terminate at Kirknewton rather sitting on a bus all the way to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[ainsworth74]

I don't normally fall into this but hey it's still Christmas for now so why not!

So taking it line by line:

Bishop Auckland - Saltburn

• Electrification at 25kV AC using OHLE.
• Remodelling the southern end of Darlington to avoid trains coming off the Saltburn having to cross the ECML to access the station.
• Close Teesside Airport and Redcar British Steel stations.
• Consider opening station at Teesside Retail Park.
• Re-open to passenger service between Saltburn and Loftus (including electrification) with a curve to allow trains to call at Saltburn without having to then reverse on the mainline outside of Saltburn to gain the line to Loftus. Stations would include Skelton, Brotton, Carlin How and Loftus. Sufficient capacity for existing freight and at least an hourly passenger service.
• General increase of line speeds to take advantage of capabilities of modern EMUs.
• 2tph on core Darlington to Saltburn section with 1tph on each of Loftus and Bishop Auckland branches.
• EMUs of similar design to ScotRail 380s in 3-car formation.

Middlesbrough - Whitby

• Electrification at 25kV AC using OHLE (we don't want a diesel island thank you very much).
• Remodel Battersby to avoid reversing move (i.e. install curve and relocate station including a new pass point).
• Increase line speeds to take advantage of capabilities of modern EMUs and reduce journey times.
• 1tp2h every day of the week year round including train to/from Middlesbrough timed for commuting.
• EMUs of similar design to Scotrail 380s in 3-car formation.

Nunthorpe - Hexham (via Durham Coast Line)

• Electrification at 25kV AC using OHLE (re-electrifying from South Shields to Pelaw Junction from the existing TY Metro 1,500v DC OHLE).
• Re-open Horden station.
• Re-open the line at the southern end to Guisborough (including electrification). Guisborough would be the only station on opening but space would be set aside for future stations at Pinchinthorpe as a possible park and ride and West Guisborough on Hutton Lane.
• Increase line speeds where ever possible to take advantage of modern EMUs.
• 2tph between Guisborough and Hexham with 1tph semi-fast extending to Carlisle (therefore electrification would include Carlisle).
• EMUs of similar design to Scotrail 380s in 3-car formation.

Middlesbrough - Carlisle (via Stillington Line)

• Electrification of sections not already electrified by previous schemes.
• 1tph calling at Middlesbrough, Thornaby, Stockton, Durham, Newcastle, Metro Centre, Hexham and Carlisle only.
• Increase line speeds where ever possible to take advantage of modern EMUs.
  
• EMUs of similar design to Scotrail 380s in 3-car formation.

Anyway, now that that's out of the system time to put the crayons away and get back to more serious and realistic matters!

 

[gg1]

Cross city line

Firstly the order of Aventras to replace the 323 would be for fixed formation 6 car units.

Secondly I would build a new route from Aston to Five Ways. Initially it would follow the route of the long closed LNWR Windsor Street Goods branch for around a mile before tunneling under the city centre with new underground stations at Aston University and Birmingham New Street low level. From there the route would emerge above ground at a point between New Street and Five Ways on the trackbed of the Midland Granville Street goods branch with a new Five Ways station being built immediately to the east of the current one with platforms extending under Islington Row middleway. The 3 new stations would be built with the possibility of a future upgrade to 10 car trains in mind.

 

[AM9]

Watford Junction to St Albans Abbey. Passing loop laid at Bricketwood. Then half hourly clock face timetable introduced. ...

I'd agree with that from a St Albans pov. The loop could be a Penryn type to allow the existing single platform to be used and reduce land take.
On the MML, the timetable on the southern section (core/St Pancras to Bedford) could be made more robust if a bi-di dynamic loop was squeezed in between the down and up fasts in several places. This would reduce the incidence of fast TL services having to wait for late EM trains to clear the crossovers at Carlton Road, West Hampstead, Radlett South and Harpenden South Junctions. It would be possible to allow them the switch and get looped thereby minimising delays to both trains. That could work even better if a bi-di loop through St Albans between fast platforms 3 and 4 allowed EM trains to pass TL services whilst they were stopped there, but the problem would be the lack of any land to buy for the formation widening.

 

[Dore & Totley]

Please please please the second platform and track for Dore and Totley

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Chilterns, assuming a healthy budget but keeping things feasible:

Electrify Marylebone-Snow Hill (extend the electrification to Worcester/Stratford for Snow Hill lines compatibility)

Reinstate through lines at Wycombe, Beaconsfield & Wembley Stadium. Look at the possibility of platform loops at Sudbury Hill. Four aspect signalling as far as Princes Risborough.

110-125mph north of Risborough to Solihull at locations where speed is currently 90, 95 or 100 (ie, most of it)

Reinstate four tracks from Dorridge to Tyseley.

The combination of those things should allow for faster express services between London/Oxford/Birmingham and allow for a better suburban service out of Marylebone, maybe even allowing for 20-30 minute frequencies at stations between Wembley & Ruislip. Maybe even extend Gerrards Cross terminators to Beaconsfield or Wycombe and Wycombe terminators to Risborough or Aylesbury.