Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Mordac]

He might wanna come "oop North" where we all talk to strangers

St. Albans is north of Watford, that's The North, right?

 

[childwallblues]

No need to go to Manchester, you can do the same by a short walk down Euston road!

Best place now for 319s is Liverpool Lime Street (after 23/10/17).

 

[childwallblues]

Meanwhile, 319424 has been moved to Brush to join 434/456.

What date was 424 moved please?

 

[DimTim]

Do we have any updates on progress?
Will we see the first unit released from Brush for testing in November?

 

[1179_Clee2]

Do we have any updates on progress?
Will we see the first unit released from Brush for testing in November?

A post in the Northern unit livery thread says testing on the Great Central is now Feb 18 not Nov 17.

 

[mwmbwls]

The Institute of Mechanical Engineers has announced that Porterbrook and Wabtec will present a technical lecture on the 11th April 2018 from 17:15 to 19:30 on the Class 769 Flex 'tri-mode' train.

Carriage Shop – Derby

Derby Roundhouse

Roundhouse Road

Pride Park

Derby

DE24 8JE

United Kingdom


https://nearyou.imeche.org/eventdetail?id=13878

 

[D365]

The IMechE do railway lectures too? That’s only another website I have to keep an eye on...

 

[SansHache]

The IMechE do railway lectures too? That’s only another website I have to keep an eye on...

Indeed they do and always very interesting.
The next event for the IMechE North Western Centre is at the Alstom Training Academy at Widnes on Tuesday 9th January 2018.
http://nearyou.imeche.org/eventdetail?id=13861

Further details of the North Western Centre activities can be found at;
http://nearyou.imeche.org/near-you/UK/North-Western/north-western-rd-centre

 

[absolutelymilk]

A post in the Northern unit livery thread says testing on the Great Central is now Feb 18 not Nov 17.

Anyone know if this is still the plan?

 

[coppercapped]

The IMechE do railway lectures too? That’s only another website I have to keep an eye on...

As the Institution of Mechanical Engineers was created because the 'Civils' turned down George Stephenson's membership application, it would be surprising if it didn't!

George became the IMechE's first president...

(The IMechE has a Railway Division; I attend the South Eastern group's meeting quite regularly as a guest, there are also meetings at Headquarters in Birdcage Walk).

 

[Chester1]

Is there any news on progress? The delay of Manchester to Preston electrification makes there introduction even more important for Northern.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Or the delay on the 769s makes Manchester - Preston wiring even more important. I assume nothing more is known as IIRC testing is scheduled for Loughborough or somewhere equally public, he said putting his combined volume back in his duffle bag.

 

[50032]

It's all very quiet... and the chances of them being ready for May is slipping away fast...

 

[gazthomas]

You wonder why the industy can’t give realistic delivery dates. Time and time again there are delays, surely better planning and risk assessment would flag potential pitfalls up earlier?

 

[D365]

Interesting to note that the naysayers oft seen when it came to discussion of the Vivarail project, have seemingly taken to a staunch silence here regarding the "319 Flex"...

 

[a_c_skinner]

Probably because the 796 will be a better train when finished (assuming it works) but December timetable seems realistic for in service in any number. It is supposed to perform well on diesel, comparable with some sprinters, it could save the day in a lot of places. It will be proof of concept, actually a lot more than proof of concept.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to note that the naysayers oft seen when it came to discussion of the Vivarail project, have seemingly taken to a staunch silence here regarding the "319 Flex"...

Even though there has been a Vivarail prototype (albeit an incendiary one), and we have heard what about the 769.....?

(I do think it'll be a good conversion though)

 

[Chester1]

Probably because the 796 will be a better train when finished (assuming it works) but December timetable seems realistic for in service in any number. It is supposed to perform well on diesel, comparable with some sprinters, it could save the day in a lot of places. It will be proof of concept, actually a lot more than proof of concept.

Frankly even one unit entering service will help Northern. One 769 will free up 2 x 2 coach 150s. Whatever timetable Northern cobbles together for the May timetable change will most likely involve the fleet being stretched to its limits until more cascaded stock arrives.

Even though there has been a Vivarail prototype (albeit an incendiary one), and we have heard what about the 769.....?

(I do think it'll be a good conversion though)

Its not really a conversion project, its basically just sticking two diesel engines underneath 319s which are proven on the national network. Vivarail's basically building new trains from the shell of underground stock. Hopefully the 769 tests go ahead next month and they can somehow enter service in May or shortly after.

 

[507021]

Even though there has been a Vivarail prototype (albeit an incendiary one), and we have heard what about the 769.....?

(I do think it'll be a good conversion though)

I think the 769s will be good trains too, and they work, will open the door for other large fleets of off-lease EMUs such as the 321s and 455s to be converted into bi-mode stock. I support both the D-Train and Flex projects, but I think the Flex is more likely to succeed.

If I remember rightly, isn't the first Class 769 unit due to begin testing at the Great Central Railway next month?

 

[Bevan Price]

Probably because the 796 will be a better train when finished (assuming it works) but December timetable seems realistic for in service in any number. It is supposed to perform well on diesel, comparable with some sprinters, it could save the day in a lot of places. It will be proof of concept, actually a lot more than proof of concept.

Whilst the 769s will serve a useful purpose, from what I have read about their specification, they will struggle to match Class 150 or 156 timings.

 

[ash39]

Whilst the 769s will serve a useful purpose, from what I have read about their specification, they will struggle to match Class 150 or 156 timings.

Yes, even if the engines were more powerful than the usual sprinter engines (300-350bhp?), I can't see how it could be possible to match sprinter timings with 2 engines for 4 coaches, versus an engine per coach.

Anyone know the spec of the engines going under the 319s?

 

[47802]

I think the 769s will be good trains too, and they work, will open the door for other large fleets of off-lease EMUs such as the 321s and 455s to be converted into bi-mode stock. I support both the D-Train and Flex projects, but I think the Flex is more likely to succeed.

If I remember rightly, isn't the first Class 769 unit due to begin testing at the Great Central Railway next month?

I don't think they will be opening any doors, the key advantage was potentially getting them in service before the 2020 deadline which any further new builds will now struggle to do, but as that advantage starts to recede I expect new build CAF/Stadler etc. Units may become a better bet for TOC's.

I've seen another comment from a good source that says that the biggest proponent of these trains in Porterbrook no longer works for the company!

 

[47802]

x

Yes, even if the engines were more powerful than the usual sprinter engines (300-350bhp?), I can't see how it could be possible to match sprinter timings with 2 engines for 4 coaches, versus an engine per coach.

Anyone know the spec of the engines going under the 319s?

The Man engines they supposed to be using are around 530hp x 2 while 150 engines are around 280hp x 4 so hp wise they shouldn't be that different overall, obviously the transmission is different.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yes, even if the engines were more powerful than the usual sprinter engines (300-350bhp?), I can't see how it could be possible to match sprinter timings with 2 engines for 4 coaches, versus an engine per coach.

Anyone know the spec of the engines going under the 319s?

MAN D2876 according to the wiki page, but it cites no source for that. If it's true (and it would make sense to), it's double the power of a Sprinter engine.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And you'll get faster low-down acceleration from electric transmission, as you're not wasting power as heat and noise in the hydraulic transmission fitted to regular Sprinters.

 

[gareth950]

Not forgetting of course 5 x 769s have been ordered for Wales to allow Sprinters to be sent away for PRM mods. If the 769s don't arrive in Wales by mid-summer, having even half of Wales' current Sprinter fleet 2020 compliant will be impossible.

 

[ash39]

And you'll get faster low-down acceleration from electric transmission, as you're not wasting power as heat and noise in the hydraulic transmission fitted to regular Sprinters.

Is the idea that the diesel engines power the existing traction motors?

They should be pretty useful bits of kit if they turn out to be reliable. Good for passengers too, two unpowered trailer cars to choose from!

 

[Geeves]

Here is the engine. Make of it what you will, I cant tell much from it but it looks a fair old chunk!

https://ibb.co/gf5ECR

 

[Agent_Squash]

Is the idea that the diesel engines power the existing traction motors?

They should be pretty useful bits of kit if they turn out to be reliable. Good for passengers too, two unpowered trailer cars to choose from!

Exactly that - the diesel mode effectively replaces DC on the Northern/ATW units.

 

[D365]

Is the idea that the diesel engines power the existing traction motors?

They should be pretty useful bits of kit if they turn out to be reliable. Good for passengers too, two unpowered trailer cars to choose from!

What do you mean? One diesel engine for each "Driving Trailer", with alternators feeding the existing 750V DC bus line.

321s (or 317s) would be more difficult to convert as they do not share this feature. Hence the suggestion of a 455 conversion.