Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[northwichcat]

The design and development costs per unit will obviously be lower, but the lease costs will be whatever the market will bear. In the current situation Porterbrook could probably charge almost whatever they want to.

Like I already suggested the 769 is the only local bi-mode train which it will be possible to obtain more off prior to the December 2019 deadline - unless another ROSCO starts converting their EMUs, so unless Porterbrook charge astronomical costs they can get away with charging whatever they want. If local bi-modes are needed for introduction post-2019 it's unlikely TOCs will see a longer build time as the disadvantage it is now, meaning Porterbrook will have to drop their price to be competitive.

 

[TheWalrus]

769s could be used on Waterloo-Salisbury services using third rail east of Basingstoke and diesel west. Although their interiors are inferior to 159s, this would release existing 159s for strengthening elsewhere.

 

[edwin_m]

If the 159s get above 75mph on the non-electrified section then 769s would probably not be able to keep up. Also I can't see the clientele accepting the poorer interior - it could be re-fitted but aircon would worsen the performance further.

 

[northwichcat]

If the 159s get above 75mph on the non-electrified section then 769s would probably not be able to keep up. Also I can't see the clientele accepting the poorer interior - it could be re-fitted but aircon would worsen the performance further.

Air con has apparently been ruled out, even for the 319s not being converted due to how much performance would be affected.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Would be nice and logical to free up the 159s to work with their cousins elsewhere. I could see a purpose built Bi-Mode being needed for the Waterloo - Exeter line. This is because it is quite a long way on diesel on an arguably intercity route (a bit !). But will there ever be a purpose built 750V DC Bi-Mode ?.

Or I could suggest Bi-Mode conversion of some 220s but that is unlikely especially as it if it ever happens they would be for 25KV AC !. But that is another topic !.

Much more likely the 769s could free up all the 171s (170s) on the Southern to go elsewhere. Though would converting the original 171s to 170s prove as problematic at the conversion of ex-Scotrail 170s to 171s still seems to be !.

 

[Townsend Hook]

I really can't see 769s displacing 171s happening, you would still have a microfleet of units, and said units would be of far lower quality (to the eye of the passenger) than those they replaced. Electrification (of Uckfield if not Marshlink) would be a far more attractive long term suggestion.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[physics34]

Would be nice and logical to free up the 159s to work with their cousins elsewhere. I could see a purpose built Bi-Mode being needed for the Waterloo - Exeter line. This is because it is quite a long way on diesel on an arguably intercity route (a bit !). But will there ever be a purpose built 750V DC Bi-Mode ?.

Or I could suggest Bi-Mode conversion of some 220s but that is unlikely especially as it if it ever happens they would be for 25KV AC !. But that is another topic !.

Much more likely the 769s could free up all the 171s (170s) on the Southern to go elsewhere. Though would converting the original 171s to 170s prove as problematic at the conversion of ex-Scotrail 170s to 171s still seems to be !.

769s cant go to Uckfield due to Oxted tunnel.

Electrification.... or Bi-mode 377s are the answer.

The 769s would be perfect for Gatwick to Reading and Reading to Basingstoke

 

[Peter Sarf]

769s cant go to Uckfield due to Oxted tunnel.

Electrification.... or Bi-mode 377s are the answer.

The 769s would be perfect for Gatwick to Reading and Reading to Basingstoke

Doh - I forgot the tunnel problem !. The traffic levels and train lengths are surely now great enough to warrant 2.99 rail el**********ion but, instead, out of fashion overhead is favoured !.

Good point about Gatwick to Reading.

 

[HSTEd]

I know NSE looked at electrification of Exeter in the 80s before the 159s were acquired from Regional Railways.

Was any detailed design specification work done on the project?

 

[edwin_m]

If there was then it would now be (a) not applicable because of changed standards and expectations, and (b) buried in a landfill since sometime in the late 90s.

 

[D365]

... and (b) buried in a landfill since sometime in the late 90s.

Presumably the same goes for a lot of the knowledge gained from the ECML electrification.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Presumably the same goes for a lot of the knowledge gained from the ECML electrification.

And with an assumed dearth of projects once the current scaled-back schemes are delivered, we're repeating the same mistakes again... :roll:

 

[Peter Sarf]

And with an assumed dearth of projects once the current scaled-back schemes are delivered, we're repeating the same mistakes again... :roll:

And again and again and again :roll:.

 

[dgl]

Presumably the same goes for a lot of the knowledge gained from the ECML electrification.

Is that simply, what we did on the ECML is budget crap that should never be used again.

We've gone from under engineered (well maybe not under engineered but not really right for the intended application) ECML headspans to over engineered F+F series 1!

 

[Chester1]

Electrification projects are still due to continue in England until 2022 because TP electrification has not been cancelled and the political backlash will hopefully mean the latest review does not cancel it. The suggestion to electrify to Uckfield and the pause and not cancellation of Wigan to Lostock Junction indicates that the government is open to authorising small schemes. Electrification in Scotland could continue indefinitely maintaining some british skills base. There should be plenty of work for 769s though.

 

[47802]

Electrification projects are still due to continue in England until 2022 because TP electrification has not been cancelled and the political backlash will hopefully mean the latest review does not cancel it. The suggestion to electrify to Uckfield and the pause and not cancellation of Wigan to Lostock Junction indicates that the government is open to authorising small schemes. Electrification in Scotland could continue indefinitely maintaining some british skills base. There should be plenty of work for 769s though.

Well Notwork Rail still have to complete GWR electrification in its revised form and MML electrification in its revised form. and possibly other projects which may or may not still go ahead.

The one problem I see with these trains is your spending a fair bit of money on a fairly old train, and certainly once you get past the 2020 compliance issues I'm not sure there will be much demand with opting for new being the preferred option.

 

[Emblematic]

Well Notwork Rail still have to complete GWR electrification in its revised form and MML electrification in its revised form. and possibly other projects which may or may not still go ahead.

The one problem I see with these trains is your spending a fair bit of money on a fairly old train, and certainly once you get past the 2020 compliance issues I'm not sure there will be much demand with opting for new being the preferred option.

From the ROSCO perspective, it's quite straightforward. The 319s are written down assets, and with the surfeit of EMUs on the market, quite likely that some won't find future employment. If the costs of the conversion, plus a refurb, accessibility mods etc. can be recouped in a short lease (say five years, within a single franchise ideally) then it's a viable project.
The ROSCO only cares about extracting value from its assets. The TOC cares about having adequate trains with thee lowest lease and operating costs. Neither care about age per se.

 

[rebmcr]

Would be nice and logical to free up the 159s to work with their cousins elsewhere. I could see a purpose built Bi-Mode being needed for the Waterloo - Exeter line. This is because it is quite a long way on diesel on an arguably intercity route (a bit !). But will there ever be a purpose built 750V DC Bi-Mode ?.

73/9 + Mk5?

 

[CosherB]

73/9 + Mk5?

(i) Where are you going to find more 73/9s?
(ii) Is a 73/9 even suitable for such a duty?

 

[HSTEd]

Well there are still 73s lying around that could be rebuilt.......

Honestly I think it is the best locomotive ever built in Britain - although I am biased as it is from the greatest region of them all....

 

[gsnedders]

(i) Where are you going to find more 73/9s?
(ii) Is a 73/9 even suitable for such a duty?

Depends on the number of carriages, surely! If it's literally to free up the 159s, it would probably be workable, given they'll be quite short.

 

[A0]

Is that simply, what we did on the ECML is budget crap that should never be used again.

We've gone from under engineered (well maybe not under engineered but not really right for the intended application) ECML headspans to over engineered F+F series 1!

I think BaldRick and a couple of other posters who know a bit more than you on this, might not agree with your assertions that the ECML electrification was 'budget crap'.

 

[simon7929]

Chap for Northern out measuring platform lengths in the NE. Says it's for the 319 flex trains. First I've heard of them being used in the North East.

 

[northwichcat]

Chap for Northern out measuring platform lengths in the NE. Says it's for the 319 flex trains. First I've heard of them being used in the North East.

There was a rumour of GWR getting Northern's Porterbrook 150s (so they aren't left short when they lose all the Angel ones) with Northern getting 'something else' in lieu. If what you say is true it doesn't necessarily mean the North East will get them, it could be they are working out how much work would be required to be able to use them in the North East.

 

[deltic08]

There was a rumour of GWR getting Northern's Porterbrook 150s (so they aren't left short when they lose all the Angel ones) with Northern getting 'something else' in lieu. If what you say is true it doesn't necessarily mean the North East will get them, it could be they are working out how much work would be required to be able to use them in the North East.

Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill would be ideal instead of 75mph Pacers. With 100mph 769s, a regular Metrocentre-Berwick service would be possible by extending some of the Morpeths. Morpeth, together with other stations on the line, would then get a service to Scotland by changing at Berwick into East Coast, Cross Country, TPE or even the proposed Edinburgh-Berwick Scotrail services.

 

[northwichcat]

Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill would be ideal instead of 75mph Pacers. With 100mph 769s, a regular Metrocentre-Berwick service would be possible by extending some of the Morpeths. Morpeth, together with other stations on the line, would then get a service to Scotland by changing at Berwick into East Coast, Cross Country, TPE or even the proposed Edinburgh-Berwick Scotrail services.

I think it's very optimistic to presume Northern will get additional units to allow them to provide an extension not included in the franchise spec.

 

[rebmcr]

Chap for Northern out measuring platform lengths in the NE. Says it's for the 319 flex trains. First I've heard of them being used in the North East.

Aren't platform lengths in the Sectional Appendix? Maybe he was checking door positions for stop boards?

 

[notlob.divad]

Chap for Northern out measuring platform lengths in the NE. Says it's for the 319 flex trains. First I've heard of them being used in the North East.

There was a rumour of GWR getting Northern's Porterbrook 150s (so they aren't left short when they lose all the Angel ones) with Northern getting 'something else' in lieu. If what you say is true it doesn't necessarily mean the North East will get them, it could be they are working out how much work would be required to be able to use them in the North East.

But surely that would break any kind of sensible logic. For me there would be a lot of sense of keeping 769s working in and around where their compatriot 319s will be working, so that they can all be assigned to the same depot and easily cycled through for maintenance. If there are serious proposals for 769s to run in the North East where they can make limited use of the wires and is about as far away as you can get from the current 319 home depot, then it would imply to me that there are some major challenges with Northern's current rolling stock plan.

 

[Mollman]

Metrocentre-Morpeth/Chathill would be ideal instead of 75mph Pacers. With 100mph 769s, a regular Metrocentre-Berwick service would be possible by extending some of the Morpeths. Morpeth, together with other stations on the line, would then get a service to Scotland by changing at Berwick into East Coast, Cross Country, TPE or even the proposed Edinburgh-Berwick Scotrail services.

I think it's very optimistic to presume Northern will get additional units to allow them to provide an extension not included in the franchise spec.

TBH I think the franchise spec has already gone out the window. Whilst the Berwick service maybe a push given all the other extra services which are going to be fitted in north of Newcastle, it would make a lot of sense to give the 769s a try on Metrocentre - Morpeth services.

 

[northwichcat]

TBH I think the franchise spec has already gone out the window. Whilst the Berwick service maybe a push given all the other extra services which are going to be fitted in north of Newcastle, it would make a lot of sense to give the 769s a try on Metrocentre - Morpeth services.

If you ignore the dates in the franchise spec then the only confirmed change is Northern getting 8 x 769s instead of 8 x 319s. While Alderley Edge to Wigan using 769s may not have been the original plan it still meets the franchise spec in terms of service provision.