Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[MikePJ]

No, but they must have something worth seeing as Richard Clinnick from Rail magazine is off to have a look at one today:


https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/897314765206409217

Off to Loughborough to look at a '769'.

 

[Bornin1980s]

^So one has finally been completed?

 

[northwichcat]

^So one has finally been completed?

I'm sure we'll hear very soon if that is the case. However, allowing a rail journalist to come and have a look might relate to an article he will write on the project where he will see the work in progress, opposed to seeing the finished product.

 

[Bletchleyite]

^So one has finally been completed?

I can't imagine it'll take them very long - it's a much simpler proposition than a Class 230 which involves significant structural changes.

 

[1179_Clee2]

I can't imagine it'll take them very long - it's a much simpler proposition than a Class 230 which involves significant structural changes.

319 456 has been at Brush for 4 months now (arrived mid April) and 319 427 was used for cad work prior to 456 arriving. If Bletchleyite is right it may be close to testing.

 

[MikePJ]

^So one has finally been completed?

He's tweeted a picture of 319434:

https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/897437453484785664

"Due for testing later this year."

It'll be a little while before it gets tested as it appears to be missing a lot of crucial underframe equipment, and bogies...

 

[Mordac]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but my memory is playing tricks on me: are the 8 Flex units for Northern part of the 12 they were getting in the new franchise, or in addition to those 12?

 

[1179_Clee2]

I'm sure this has been covered before, but my memory is playing tricks on me: are the 8 Flex units for Northern part of the 12 they were getting in the new franchise, or in addition to those 12?

They are the same.

Northern are still getting 12 more units to add to the original 20 Class 319s, but 4 will be 319s and 8 will be 769s
5 units will still be handed back but still don't know which ones.

 

[furnessvale]

If the 319's won't fit through Oxted tunnel. they're also going to have problems with those between Carlisle and Maryport. Like the Hastings line tunnels, they also when built were done on the cheap and needed an extra brick liner fitted later for strength.
Could complicate allocations and rostering

I don't believe that was the case.

Bridges on the M & C were built from new on a tight structure gauge as a cost saving measure. In places, the "6ft" through a bridge hole can be as small as 4' 8", ie tighter than gauge.

Despite that, modern stock can fit, witness first generation DMUs and current loco hauled Mk2 stock, provided passengers are prevented from hanging heads out, by barred windows etc.

I have no idea what gauge a 319 conforms to however.

 

[jopsuk]

Pretty sure that, other than the pantograph and 3rd rail shoes, a 319 coach is physically exactly the same height, width and length as a Class 150 coach

 

[edwin_m]

The 319 has bogie dampers which may enlarge the lower sector gauge but probably mean it sways less than a 150 at the same speed. However on >75mph lines it may sway more than a 150 which isn't allowed to do those speeds, so would have a larger dynamic profile.

 

[a_c_skinner]

At risk of sounding non-technical I do hope this is a success. There is a huge supply of "donor" sets of only scrap value otherwise and a load of places where more capacity would be a huge boon. I guess we will see soon how they get on up hill from Kendal to Oxenholme at least.

 

[YorkshireBear]

At risk of sounding non-technical I do hope this is a success. There is a huge supply of "donor" sets of only scrap value otherwise and a load of places where more capacity would be a huge boon. I guess we will see soon how they get on up hill from Kendal to Oxenholme at least.

I hope so too.

We are about to have a huge oversupply of electric stock with good useable life left. (365s... all the GA stock? etc etc etc) So finding uses for them to provide services on non electrified routes is a master stroke if it can be made successful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. The likes of Northern and ATW need, as well as brand new stock, lots of cheap capacity, and this (and possibly a similar DMU-only job on the likes of 455s) has great potential to provide it. And unlike the Class 230 it's less of a compromise - it's a proper mainline train.

 

[childwallblues]

Agreed. The likes of Northern and ATW need, as well as brand new stock, lots of cheap capacity, and this (and possibly a similar DMU-only job on the likes of 455s) has great potential to provide it. And unlike the Class 230 it's less of a compromise - it's a proper mainline train.

Spot on there. There are many pacers around the north to be replaced. Reallistically all 319/769 could do with new 2 + 2 seating.

 

[gsnedders]

Spot on there. There are many pacers around the north to be replaced. Reallistically all 319/769 could do with new 2 + 2 seating.

I presume the work to convert to 769 is essentially interior-out anyway, so you only have the cost of the new seats to convert to 2+2. (Or maybe even just the new mounting arms, given I presume the seats are individually mounted to the arm?)

 

[northwichcat]

I presume the work to convert to 769 is essentially interior-out anyway, so you only have the cost of the new seats to convert to 2+2. (Or maybe even just the new mounting arms, given I presume the seats are individually mounted to the arm?)

Quite often even a 'refresh' involves removing all the seats e.g. to replace the floor covering but that doesn't mean the seats have to be replaced. It's much cheaper to put the old ones back in!

 

[47802]

Spot on there. There are many pacers around the north to be replaced. Reallistically all 319/769 could do with new 2 + 2 seating.

I very much doubt there will be any significant changes to the seating at least on the initial order for Northern.

Do you not think that Arriva did there homework when they bid for the franchise in terms what was required to replace the Pacer fleet and future timetables?

Yes there has been some cutback in North West Electrification plans, and clearly that's what the flex units are going to cover, and there is a suggestion that a few of the planned 150's due to go to Northern may not transfer in which case other solution will have to be found for that which may be more flex units.

 

[jayah]

It wouldn't invalidate the Northern franchise agreement, if unchanged it would leave Northern theoretically in breach. However all major contracts change and the section on the train fleet specfically says:



Some people on this forum have a very strange idea that contracts are set in stone, they are not, change is the only constant. The franchise agreement will have seen a number of changes with first delayed cascade leading to the of the first timetable change be delayed to 2018 and delays to/cancellations of electrification.

If the 150s don't arrive, the Secretary of State doesn't have much option to agree a change, athough the onus seems to be on Northern to try to come up with a solution.

People do seem to get hung up on these franchise agreemeents. They are out of date before they begin.

The GWR agreement was for hourly Class 387s from Paddington to Newbury in May 2017 - when change does come, it is usually an opportunity to renegotiate those premium payments to the DfT.

Don't forget they and Network Rail are two sides of the same coin or something else if you aren't so complimentary.

 

[D7666]

I presume the work to convert to 769 is essentially interior-out anyway, so you only have the cost of the new seats to convert to 2+2. (Or maybe even just the new mounting arms, given I presume the seats are individually mounted to the arm?)

NO idea on what if any 769s seat layout might be _ but concerning 2+2 don't forget the nominated 319s in the 769 plan are 319/4s and these already are more 2+2 than 2+3. This was done by GoVia Thameslink (ie the TOC before FCC) when they created the 'Flyer' brand /4s. All they did was remove the 3rd seat of the 2+3 in the centre saloon of each car, leaving a minority of 3+2 in the end saloons. Nonetheless they are already /mostly/ 2+2 when you take into account other space within each unit.

The original 20 319s that Northern rcvd are all 319/3, these retained 2+3 (except for the former first class area reseated to 2+2 standard) in the GoVia 'Metro' branding.


--
Nick

 

[po8crg]

Clearance issues aside, you could conceivably have (new) routes in the north west that make use of OHLE, unelectrified lines and parts of the Merseyrail network.

Not sure about all-three, but if they can fit into the Loop tunnel, then Wrexham-Liverpool via the Borderlands would be a really good use of a third-rail/diesel bi-mode.

Only route I could see for all three would be Liverpool-Manchester via Wigan Wallgate (third rail Liverpool-Kirkby, diesel Kirkby-Bolton, OHLE Bolton-Manchester)

 

[Elecman]

Not sure about all-three, but if they can fit into the Loop tunnel, then Wrexham-Liverpool via the Borderlands would be a really good use of a third-rail/diesel bi-mode.

Only route I could see for all three would be Liverpool-Manchester via Wigan Wallgate (third rail Liverpool-Kirkby, diesel Kirkby-Bolton, OHLE Bolton-Manchester)

Could also do Liverpool Ormskirk Preston if in both cases the lines at Ormskirk and Kirkby can be reconnected ( easy at a Ormskirk a tad more difficult at Kirkby with the ruddy great lump of concrete in the way!!

 

[507021]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, if it has then I apologise.

It's been reported on Twitter the unit numbers for Northern's Class 769s will be 769424/431/434/442/448/450/456/458.

 

[childwallblues]

I don't think this has been mentioned before, if it has then I apologise.

It's been reported on Twitter the unit numbers for Northern's Class 769s will be 769424/431/434/442/448/450/456/458.

It has been quoted previously but not necessarily on this particular forum.

 

[1179_Clee2]

New RAIL magazine 834

Pre production testing of the first Class 769 Flex MAN diesel engine and ABB alternator was due to begin at Wabtec Rail's Brush Traction Loughborough facility as this issue of RAIL went to press.
This process will allow engineers to discover and remedy any issues before engines and alternators are fitted to the first Class 319 on site.
Testing will be carried out in a bespoke facility adapted for the scheme., The engines and alternators to be tested initially are pre production samples and will not be fitted to a main line 769. they will remain in situ throughout the conversion process to enable Wabtec, MAN and ABB engineers to assess and rectify any issues found during testing.
Once testing is complete, it is expected that Unit 1 (319 456) will be fitted with its components in September or October.
Following a period of static testing at Brush, the train will then move to the nearby Great Central Railway for testing. This will be for drivers as well as for the owner Porterbrook, Wabtec and other partners. this is expected in late November.
The 769 will be joined at the Great Central by Unit 2 (319 434) to test compatibility and for other issues such as working in multiple. Once that is completed the trains will return to Bush to await approval before moving to their future base at Allerton.
It is planned that all eight will be in the North West By April, ahead of their introduction at the start of the May 2018 timetable.
The first two trains are already at Brush with 319 456 fitted with a trial fuel tank by August 15. the tank carries 1,000 litres of fuel and designed to last for two days in traffic, depending on how economically the 769 is driven and where it operates.

 

[Chester1]

Great news! I wasn't expecting that all 8 should be ready for the May 2018 timetable change. That seems to indicate that Brush/Wabtec will be able to convert 1 every 3 weeks. That would mean they could complete the ATW order by aproximately the end of July and another 25 could be converted by 31/12/2019 if Northern or another ToC decided to order more.

 

[507021]

Great news! I wasn't expecting that all 8 should be ready for the May 2018 timetable change. That seems to indicate that Brush/Wabtec will be able to convert 1 every 3 weeks. That would mean they could complete the ATW order by aproximately the end of July and another 25 could be converted by 31/12/2019 if Northern or another ToC decided to order more.

Apparently it'll take about four to six weeks to convert each unit, but I agree, it is very good news to hear all eight units will be ready ahead of next year's timetable change. I'm really looking forward to them entering service.

 

[Chester1]

Apparently it'll take about four to six weeks to convert each unit, but I agree, it is very good news to hear all eight units will be ready ahead of next year's timetable change. I'm really looking forward to them entering service.

Four to six but eight between October and April would indicate they can convert two at the same time once they have built the first two. I was more thinking in terms of how many 769s could be ready by 31/12/2019. I know they are make to do fix but they will be a vast improvement on Pacers and better than D Trains.

 

[northwichcat]

Great news! I wasn't expecting that all 8 should be ready for the May 2018 timetable change.

Northern's May 2018 timetable plan seems to be relying on having 7 in service on weekdays, so just as well Porterbrook aim to have all 8 done considering Network Rail won't have Wigan-Bolton or Manchester-Stalybridge wired.

 

[northwichcat]

I was more thinking in terms of how many 769s could be ready by 31/12/2019. I know they are make to do fix but they will be a vast improvement on Pacers and better than D Trains.

I think Porterbrook will want some kind of long term commitment to use 769s before they start creating large quantities of them.