East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Andyjs247]

Also no track works south of Aylesbury Vale Parkway. The Princes Risborough branch will still be slow.

Yes. The East West Rail company was launched on 14th December 2017 according to Railnews. The line will be funded by a mix of public and private finance.

As well as removing electrification, it's also now not intended as a freight line (which it was originally).

No. The EWR Co is responsible for the Central Section linking Bedford to Cambridge. Phase 2 of the Western Section is being delivered by Network Rail and an alliance of Atkins, Laing O’Rourke and VolkerRail.

I don’t see anything to say that W10/W12 has been removed from the spec. The loops at Newton Longville could be potentially seen as unnecessary gold plating but I don’t see that the route is not now intended for freight.

 

[The Planner]

Quite a few, it seems - including single track from Aylesbury Vale Parkway to Claydon, Newton Longville loops are gone, a smaller Winslow station, and more to find once I've dug through the document in a bit more detail.

I wasn't in a position to say that as Ive known for a while, which was why I was dropping large hints for people to guess themselves.

 

[HowardGWR]

Taking a long view, while the penny pinchers will be congratulating themselves on their frugality, I suppose that as long as everything is future-proofed, so that it eventually can be double tracked, looped and electrified, without a new TWA palaver, then all is not lost. Restoring something is better than what is there now (I suppose ).

 

[Non Multi]

Taking a long view, while the penny pinchers will be congratulating themselves on their frugality, I suppose that as long as everything is future-proofed, so that it eventually can be double tracked, looped and electrified, without a new TWA palaver, then all is not lost. Restoring something is better than what is there now (I suppose ).

Feels like an old school 1980's-1990's BR infrastructure project, having to be done as cheaply as possible, or it simply doesn't happen at all.

 

[mr_jrt]

Does reducing the platform lengths on a new-build railway really make a noticeable enough impact to the costs to warrant the inflexibility they will cause? Seems madness to cut them back when you have a near enough blank slate to work from.

 

[BluePenguin]

It is disappointing that the route won't be extended to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet International before opening. It would have a helpful for people to interchange between Thameslink, Southeastern, Crossrail and in the case of the latter HS1 too.

 

[Andyjs247]

Taking a long view, while the penny pinchers will be congratulating themselves on their frugality, I suppose that as long as everything is future-proofed, so that it eventually can be double tracked, looped and electrified, without a new TWA palaver, then all is not lost. Restoring something is better than what is there now (I suppose ).

We are where we are I suppose and I am pleased at one level that this project is firming up and still progressing towards completion.

The cynic in me wonders how much has actually been “saved” by these latest changes. They appear significant cuts on top of electrification being binned.

Bear in mind that it looks like the project will be at least 6 years late (originally it was thought completion was possible in 2017 - that was in 2010 mind) so the benefits are being delayed too. It was said in December 2016 (Rodney Rose - then chair of the EWR Joint Delivery Board) that each year of delay to delivery was costing £200m in lost economic benefits.

Then the latest announcement of £1bn funding by government in November 2017 on top of £100m in 2016 for EWR2 (plus £10m for the central section) appears quite generous on the surface.

Have we been told recently how much the project is costing overall? Wikipedia has a figure of £270m for the Western Section (2010 figures?) and £190m was spent by NR out of £320m on Phase 1 between Oxford and Bicester.

There is much smoke and mirrors I sense.

 

[a good off]

I also had seen the descoped version too. The section between Oxford and Bletchley has a lot of freight potential, especially for diversions off the Cherwell Valley. Operationally I think they’ll really regret not having any sort of loops or places to put broken trains out of the way. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[richieb1971]

The people that pay, design and build the railway are often not the people that regret any of it. By that time they have retired, moved on. Its the next generation that pick up the pieces.

If what people are saying is true, the EWR will be a lesser railway than any of the others further up north that go east/west - west/east. Which considering its nearer London and will potentially see the most growth in the next 2 decades is pretty dire really.

 

[The Planner]

I also had seen the descoped version too. The section between Oxford and Bletchley has a lot of freight potential, especially for diversions off the Cherwell Valley. Operationally I think they’ll really regret not having any sort of loops or places to put broken trains out of the way. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

It does in isolation, but when you consider the ends and projected growth, it is getting them on and off is the issue. No one is going to grade separate Oxford North for freight services, simple as. I suspect someone has looked at the train service spec and worked out that you do not need the loops to run what it is being built for. I have mentioned this several times in various threads about Princes Risborough to Aylesbury, it doesn't need speeding up or doubling to provide the outputs. I imagine some fettling has decided that Aylesbury to Claydon doesn't need it either apart from the little bit of double track at the junction.

 

[snowball]

It is disappointing that the route won't be extended to Gravesend or Ebbsfleet International before opening. It would have a helpful for people to interchange between Thameslink, Southeastern, Crossrail and in the case of the latter HS1 too.

Did you intend to post this in a different thread? I've never heard of any suggestion of E-W Rail being extended in that direction.

By the way, the link in your signture doesn't work.

 

[aylesbury]

The Aylesbury Risboro branch service will be enhanced by the MK trains and if its still a single line to Calvert no problems should occur but as to upgrading beyond Parkway it is needed as the line is definitely freight only infrastructure now.Line speeds of 75mph are not good enough we need at least 90mph so a to be competitive with cars and a reduced station at Winslow is a backward step do they not see how trains will be running with four coaches within a year.I despair of the civil servants who run this country they are not able to look forward to the needs of our country.

 

[Kingham West]

Let’s be grateful , there is a plan and we will get a less costly 100mph Railway , campaigners have been working for 30 years to get this far, it’s desperately needed by the local economy, and those without cars .
I will take this , rather than 30 more years of hard campaigning .
However the real story is the£ 3 to £7 billion , expressway .
No one is asking for this , and it is remarkable , no one seems botherd about cost or the environment here.
No attempt to de-scope here!!

 

[jimm]

Let’s be grateful , there is a plan and we will get a less costly 100mph Railway , campaigners have been working for 30 years to get this far, it’s desperately needed by the local economy, and those without cars .
I will take this , rather than 30 more years of hard campaigning .
However the real story is the£ 3 to £7 billion , expressway .
No one is asking for this , and it is remarkable , no one seems botherd about cost or the environment here.
No attempt to de-scope here!!

I don't know where you get the idea no one is asking for new roads as well - there is a desperate need to do something in the Oxford area to split out long-distance traffic from local traffic on the A34. The east-west main roads in Oxon-Bucks area aren't up to the demands placed on them these days and there is no prospect of any direct rail link between Aylesbury, Thame and Oxford anyway.

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion so far that the core Oxford-Bletchley rail axis will not still be built as a 100mph double-track route - creating the equivalent down to Aylesbury, for 1tph in each direction, plus presumably a bit of freight to Calvert, always looked a bit of a gold-plated solution.

 

[Kingham West]

I don't know where you get the idea no one is asking for new roads as well - there is a desperate need to do something in the Oxford area to split out long-distance traffic from local traffic on the A34. The east-west main roads in Oxon-Bucks area aren't up to the demands placed on them these days and there is no prospect of any direct rail link between Aylesbury, Thame and Oxford anyway.

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion so far that the core Oxford-Bletchley rail axis will not still be built as a 100mph double-track route - creating the equivalent down to Aylesbury, for 1tph in each direction, plus presumably a bit of freight to Calvert, always looked a bit of a gold-plated solution.

I don't know where you get the idea no one is asking for new roads as well - there is a desperate need to do something in the Oxford area to split out long-distance traffic from local traffic on the A34. The east-west main roads in Oxon-Bucks area aren't up to the demands placed on them these days and there is no prospect of any direct rail link between Aylesbury, Thame and Oxford anyway.

There doesn't seem to be any suggestion so far that the core Oxford-Bletchley rail axis will not still be built as a 100mph double-track route - creating the equivalent down to Aylesbury, for 1tph in each direction, plus presumably a bit of freight to Calvert, always looked a bit of a gold-plated solution.

It will be 100mph definatly , 90 Aylesbury Parkway , Claydon .
The issue of the expressway is it will induce demand, and the initial costs at 7bn , are more than the entire rail budget 8 times the cost of EWR .
The campaign for EWR has mass support , and 11-1 BCR the Expressway has plenty of opponents , and as a taxpayer I want a good BCR , currently its hovering under 1, rail schemes need to get to 2.
Rail scores high if costs can be controlled .

 

[jimm]

None of which gets us away from the points I made about the need to relieve the A34 around Oxford and the lack of any rail connection between Oxford, Thame and Aylesbury.

Whatever form road investment ends up taking, there is no question that it is needed, whatever the eventual shape of East West Rail and however much it costs. A new road may induce some new demand, but the existing roads can't cope with existing demand.

 

[work-traveller]

Does reducing the platform lengths on a new-build railway really make a noticeable enough impact to the costs to warrant the inflexibility they will cause? Seems madness to cut them back when you have a near enough blank slate to work from.

As trains are intended to be no more than 4 carriages, it seemed reasonable to reduce the platforms to match that.

 

[edwin_m]

Hopefully they will just delete part of the platforms without changing the station design fundamentally. This ought to mean that they won't put anything else in the way that might make later extension back to the original planned length more difficult.

 

[Class 170101]

Feels like an old school 1980's-1990's BR infrastructure project, having to be done as cheaply as possible, or it simply doesn't happen at all.

I hope passive provision is included for these to be added at a later date. Sadly I have no confidence in Grayling at all. He made a mess of justice and now it looks like he is here as well.

 

[EIKN]

I'm new ish to this forum . It's years since I was in MK Left after a drunk driving cop killed my dad in wolverton by the rail works ,we lived in Stony Stratford ( in June 1987 Marshall got away with it n we left . But I do recall my mum before we lost my dad , taking us to bletchley on those mad wee mercerdes cityhopper buses to bletchley. sometimes we'd just get the train from wolverton to bletchley . I thought Bletchley was similar to Northampton in fact I can't recall if the latter is in the WCML . But is Bletchley or does it have two stations. I thought there was a dissuesc line past aspley guise? .
Which Is the one that's just been reopened after much fanfare . Almost on the scale of half a Waverley route ?.
( which they need to get on with )

 

[aylesbury]

Our roads are indeed clogged and in need of work to overcome the problems ,top of the list should be dualling of the A41 between Bicester and Aylesbury as traffic is increasing daily with a high percentage of HGV,s.Just driving across Aylesbury can take a quarter of an hour in the middle of the day but BCC and AVD deny the need for bypasses and only build connecting roads and are not interested in even repairing them.Risboro to Aylesbury Parkway can cope with the service proposed with very little work needed.I wait eagerly for the first train to MK but I wonder how many paths are available on the wcml as its pretty busy ?

 

[snowball]

I thought Bletchley was similar to Northampton in fact I can't recall if the latter is in the WCML . But is Bletchley or does it have two stations. I thought there was a dissuesc line past aspley guise? .
Which Is the one that's just been reopened after much fanfare . Almost on the scale of half a Waverley route ?.
( which they need to get on with )

There is only one station at Bletchley and it's on the WCML. The WCML slow lines separate from the fasts near Roade and go via Northampton to rejoin on the approach to Rugby. Aspley Guise is on the Bedford-Bletchley (or "Marston Vale") line which has remained open all along. The line that has reopened is Oxford-Bicester. Sorry to hear about your dad.

 

[DarloRich]

I also had seen the descoped version too. The section between Oxford and Bletchley has a lot of freight potential, especially for diversions off the Cherwell Valley. Operationally I think they’ll really regret not having any sort of loops or places to put broken trains out of the way. They know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The people that pay, design and build the railway are often not the people that regret any of it. By that time they have retired, moved on. Its the next generation that pick up the pieces.

If what people are saying is true, the EWR will be a lesser railway than any of the others further up north that go east/west - west/east. Which considering its nearer London and will potentially see the most growth in the next 2 decades is pretty dire really.

The Aylesbury Risboro branch service will be enhanced by the MK trains and if its still a single line to Calvert no problems should occur but as to upgrading beyond Parkway it is needed as the line is definitely freight only infrastructure now.Line speeds of 75mph are not good enough we need at least 90mph so a to be competitive with cars and a reduced station at Winslow is a backward step do they not see how trains will be running with four coaches within a year.I despair of the civil servants who run this country they are not able to look forward to the needs of our country.

I despair of people who are detached from and have no interest in the realities of life. Cloth has to be cut according to availability. Bluntly there is no money available for nice to haves. I know you aren't interested in that reality and just want to complain but please do try to understand some of the challenges faced in delivering this kind of work to a budget.

The real world is a very different place to the perfect world many of you seem to inhabit.

There is only one station at Bletchley and it's on the WCML. The WCML slow lines separate from the fasts near Roade and go via Northampton to rejoin on the approach to Rugby. Aspley Guise is on the Bedford-Bletchley (or "Marston Vale") line which has remained open all along. The line that has reopened is Oxford-Bicester. Sorry to hear about your dad.

Correct. Many think Fenny Stratford is part of Bletchley but it is a separate community.

 

[richieb1971]

Darlo,

With all due respect, are you trying to say a great country like the United Kingdom cannot build simple railways anymore? Or are you saying that railways in their current format are just too expensive?

Because we build huge bridges and tunnels and have accomplished other feats that were deemed next to impossible in the past. A railway is just a railway. Put in context your saying a freight loop is a "nice to have" for the UK. WOW!

 

[BucksBones]

I despair of people who are detached from and have no interest in the realities of life. Cloth has to be cut according to availability. Bluntly there is no money available for nice to haves. I know you aren't interested in that reality and just want to complain but please do try to understand some of the challenges faced in delivering this kind of work to a budget.

The real world is a very different place to the perfect world many of you seem to inhabit.

I'm sorry but that ticking-off is really not appropriate here; nobody is saying it should be a double track 125mph railway, they are just suggesting good, workable and relatively inexpensive ideas that would make the line more likely to be a commercial success.

The fact is that if the line ends up being slow and unreliable due to the constraints placed upon it by inadequate infrastructure, people won't use it and the whole thing will have been a waste of money. I believe the phrase is "false economy".

As an aside, you could make the "perfect world" argument about many things (apart from, perhaps, the subject we are supposed to be discussing!) and the result is short-sighted complacency and underinvestment. Look at the mess that was made of the railways through neglect in the 1970s and 80s - we are still paying for it now.

 

[DarloRich]

Darlo,

With all due respect, are you trying to say a great country like the United Kingdom cannot build simple railways anymore? Or are you saying that railways in their current format are just too expensive?

Because we build huge bridges and tunnels and have accomplished other feats that were deemed next to impossible in the past. A railway is just a railway. Put in context your saying a freight loop is a "nice to have" for the UK. WOW!

I am saying, really rather obviously, that only a finite amount of money is available. Sometimes you have to settle for what you can get rather than what you want. I live in the real world. You don't. You live in a fantasy world where money grows on trees and can just be spent as you wish. You really have no idea.

I'm sorry but that ticking-off is really not appropriate here; nobody is saying it should be a double track 125mph railway, they are just suggesting good, workable and relatively inexpensive ideas that would make the line more likely to be a commercial success.

The fact is that if the line ends up being slow and unreliable due to the constraints placed upon it by inadequate infrastructure, people won't use it and the whole thing will have been a waste of money. I believe the phrase is "false economy".

As an aside, you could make the "perfect world" argument about many things (apart from, perhaps, the subject we are supposed to be discussing!) and the result is short-sighted complacency and underinvestment. Look at the mess that was made of the railways through neglect in the 1970s and 80s - we are still paying for it now.

If I have £500 and your "good, workable and relatively inexpensive ideas" cost £675 they cant be built. That is the reality. And yes I am sure we will pay for that in the future but money can not just be pulled out of thin air. That is the world we live in. Cash is constrained more than ever and under greater political control. If the budget changes then what you can deliver has to change. It is no good whining that you might need that bit of kit tomorrow when there is barely money to pay for the kit you need, for certain, today.

You have to deliver what you can not what you might like. What can be delivered for the available cost is a simple railway. That is it. Sadly not everyone here understands ( or even wants to know) about those challenges.

 

[coppercapped]

DarloRich has it spot on in Post #1496. This is the reality - it is as true for public procurement just as it is for private purchases. Although I might like a 58" TV with all the bells and whistles - if the money only stretches to a 32" set then that is what is has to be.

It is a very simple concept to understand.

 

[Leslie Fletcher]

DarloRich has it spot on in Post #1496. This is the reality - it is as true for public procurement just as it is for private purchases. Although I might like a 58" TV with all the bells and whistles - if the money only stretches to a 32" set then that is what is has to be.

It is a very simple concept to understand.

But also wrong. Countries, unlike households, can print money and for countries which, like the UK, can borrow in their own currency this may be a wise thing to do if the end result is improved infrastructure.

 

[Mikey C]

Our roads are indeed clogged and in need of work to overcome the problems ,top of the list should be dualling of the A41 between Bicester and Aylesbury as traffic is increasing daily with a high percentage of HGV,s.Just driving across Aylesbury can take a quarter of an hour in the middle of the day but BCC and AVD deny the need for bypasses and only build connecting roads and are not interested in even repairing them.Risboro to Aylesbury Parkway can cope with the service proposed with very little work needed.I wait eagerly for the first train to MK but I wonder how many paths are available on the wcml as its pretty busy ?

A bit off topic, but I'm amazed that Aylesbury has never been bypassed when the A41 is a high quality road south of there, and places like Bicester are growing quickly.

 

[muddythefish]

I am saying, really rather obviously, that only a finite amount of money is available. Sometimes you have to settle for what you can get rather than what you want. I live in the real world. You don't. You live in a fantasy world where money grows on trees and can just be spent as you wish. You really have no idea..

So the money isn't there to build a double track railway line but £7bn plus is around to build a gold-plated road expressway. In the real world, and contrary to what politicians say (well done for quoting them by the way), money is always available.

Scaling back EWR smacks of expediency and will inevitably lead to the problems that have afflicted the Border railway, another reopened line descoped to save costs in the short term but now shackled with regards to future long term growth because of cost cutting.