Connectivity issues between the Hampshire & Dorset coast and Devon & Cornwall

[Schweir]

Many of you will know that there is not a direct line between the major south coast population centres of Southampton / Brighton / Portsmouth / Bournemouth & Exeter / Plymouth / Torquay / Paignton. This is not an exhaustive list. Travelling back yesterday from London Paddington to Weymouth (via Westbury on a Penzance bound train) again I noticed a large amount of people (at least 70-80+) waiting at Westbury, the majority of which coming from the GWR Portsmouth Harbour service. This is not the first time I have noticed a large amount of people waiting at Westbury for a Devon & Cornwall bound service.

Surely something needs to be done to improve connectivity along the south coast (well more than SWR's deluded south coast stopper) such as building a new line between Dorchester & Axminster, or having some services go via Yeovil & Dorchester.

 

[Llanigraham]

Can you tell us how many passengers want to make these trips?

 

[DanTrain]

I don't know a lot about the south coast, but that new line does appear to be sensible. I'd suggest a Brighton to Exeter service, via Portsmouth and Weymouth (a double reversal I know, but that's the problem with the coast!) This would connect several towns/cities up and I'd sugger could be run by SWR 158s or even XC voyagers in the future.

All a dream of course...

 

[Coolzac]

Personally, I think with the reversals and the time taken, it wouldn't be worth it. What would be better is a much more regular Brighton-Bristol service, thus decreasing journey times to the South West by just having 1 connection at Westbury. You could extend the Brighton-Southampton Central service so that it would be hourly. You could run this service using some HSTs that are about to be taken off other routes?

For an effective Weymouth-Torbay service, a curve needs to be built at Yeovil junction. IF this was completed, this would be become a real possibility joining up sizeable populations with good connections to other parts as well.

 

[Parallel]

It looks like there may have been a curve at some point between Yeovil Junction towards Thornford. You can see what looks like part of an old track bed as you are travelling northbound to Yeovil Pen Mill.

I’m all for a south coast service. The main issue is how slow the West Coastway is.

 

[Bob M]

Brighton to Soton is electrified, so there is some sense in changing trains at Soton. I have in the past suggested a Soton-Salisbury-Exeter service and/or a Weymouth-Yeovil-Exeter service. Even without building the extra curve at Thornford, one can just reverse at Pen Mill.
No-one seems interested, sadly.

 

[Busaholic]

I can think of no worse car journey that I could make from my home in Penzance to an English destination than one along the south coast to, say, Dover, or even quite a way to the west of there. That sort of journey is never going to be quick whatever mode of travel you use, but rail could be much more of an option than it currently is (I'm not including taking the via London option). I know it's all complicated by electrification (or not) and different franchises but it'd be nice to see some initiatives over the next decade.

 

[HowardGWR]

This is an old chestnut on here, (and the Dorchester to Axminster / Exeter connection goes back to 1845 and Sir John Hawkshaw, who lived at Charmouth for a while) but there is no animus from local politicians to achieve a better connection at Yeovil, for instance, let alone at Dorchester. The Dorset County Council used to include the 'aspiration' in its LTP (do these LTPs still exist?) but never put forward any money for even a feasibility study. The split between franchises does not help either. One would think that they were still fighting over which track gauge to use!

 

[30907]

From Southampton and points East, the Dorchester-Yeovil option would be significantly slower (even supposing curves at Dorchester and Yeovil - I'm not sure one at Dorchester is even possible).
Even a new-build via Bridport would not be competitive time-wise with the traditional Salisbury route (it's a lovely idea and would be physically possible, there were several proposals back in the C19th as Taunton has just posted - modelling part of it in 00 is my retirement project....).
This really leaves East Dorset to the SW Peninsula as your market, and I fear the business case would struggle.

 

[Rapidash]

I've had to go from Cosham to Paignton a few times, trying different combinations of changing at Salisbury and Westbury.

In my experience Westbury gets a larger number of people disembarking for journeys down to Exeter, certainly the HST has been filled up, with a fair number standing until Exeter. Similar experience getting a 159 from Salisbury, but that was only three car. These journeys have been in various Septembers in recent years.

So yes, there's definitely some demand there, but probably not vast enough to worry any TOC at present whilst everything is up in the air with stock.

 

[TheWalrus]

How about a few off-peak journeys Soton-Exeter via Westbury? Could also incorporate the Salisbury 6 service and use stock not working between the peaks subject to availability?

 

[SteveP29]

The Dorset County Council used to include the 'aspiration' in its LTP (do these LTPs still exist?) but never put forward any money for even a feasibility study.

Dorset County Council have not long ago allowed Damory Coaches to axe the only bus service from Dorchester through the Piddle Valley to Sturminster Newton, so I doubt massive transport infrastructure projects are on their mind right now.
(From a personal selfish point of view, I also now have no way of getting to the village that my Grandmother and Great Grandparents lived without and expensive taxi)

 

[anti-pacer]

Just an idea, and one that I doubt will ever happen, certainly due to costs and no doubt many other factors, but would a new rail line between, say, Dorchester and Exeter be a good idea?

That part of the so called "Jurassic Coast" isn't served by rail and is obviously a very popular tourist area. Also, getting from Bournemouth to Devon by train is the journey from hell. Road links aren't that great with no real dual carriageways, and being part of the same administrative region (South West England) surely they deserve better.

I appreciate that due to the topography of the coast around there that places like Lyme Regis couldn't be served directly, but with stations nearby and decent bus links I'm sure I could be onto something here. Just think, Lyme Regis could be served by "Jurassic Parkway" (see what I did there? ). OK I'm joking with the name, but I think it needs something.

Also, links between the wider coastline from, say, Brighton to Exeter, would be better. Maybe direct trains to Gatwick from the South West could be feasible. I am mainly thinking of the Dorset/Devon market here though.

What do you think, hypothetically speaking?

 

[nw1]

Just an idea, and one that I doubt will ever happen, certainly due to costs and no doubt many other factors, but would a new rail line between, say, Dorchester and Exeter be a good idea?

That part of the so called "Jurassic Coast" isn't served by rail and is obviously a very popular tourist area. Also, getting from Bournemouth to Devon by train is the journey from hell. Road links aren't that great with no real dual carriageways, and being part of the same administrative region (South West England) surely they deserve better.

I appreciate that due to the topography of the coast around there that places like Lyme Regis couldn't be served directly, but with stations nearby and decent bus links I'm sure I could be onto something here. Just think, Lyme Regis could be served by "Jurassic Parkway" (see what I did there? ). OK I'm joking with the name, but I think it needs something.

Also, links between the wider coastline from, say, Brighton to Exeter, would be better. Maybe direct trains to Gatwick from the South West could be feasible. I am mainly thinking of the Dorset/Devon market here though.

What do you think, hypothetically speaking?

From a topographic point of view the main challenge seems to be an extensive area of high ground a few miles north of Lyme Regis around 5 miles wide, looks like you could build a line off the old Bridport branch which could at first follow a valley lying between the Pilsdon Pen area and the Golden Cap area but then you're stuck with this extensive plateau which you'd have to tunnel under before joining the existing line at Axminster. I'm guessing this is why they never built a line that way; curves at Dorchester and at Yeovil would probably be the easiest way of doing it.

 

[HowardGWR]

^^^ (anti-pacer) We've discussed the link already, see above postings. On your last point, indeed, more direct links to Gatwick from the SW are very much needed: mind, so they are to Heathrow, and we're still waiting for those (coach from Woking or Reading at present).

 

[anti-pacer]

Just to make you all aware, when I posted my suggestion, I didn't realise there was already a thread on this.

Apologies.

 

[snowball]

From a topographic point of view the main challenge seems to be an extensive area of high ground a few miles north of Lyme Regis around 5 miles wide, looks like you could build a line off the old Bridport branch which could at first follow a valley lying between the Pilsdon Pen area and the Golden Cap area but then you're stuck with this extensive plateau which you'd have to tunnel under before joining the existing line at Axminster. I'm guessing this is why they never built a line that way; curves at Dorchester and at Yeovil would probably be the easiest way of doing it.

Same reason the A35 is mostly of poor quality between Dorchester and Honiton.

 

[Master29]

There used to be Plymouth to Brighton services if memory serves and SWT did go down to Plymouth on some trains. I also believe there may have been a Waterloo to Penzance extended from Exeter St David's some years ago using class 50`s through Network SE but I could be wrong. I`ve often been to Westbury where many people have changed from a Portsmouth/Cardiff to and Paddington/Penzance.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe there was a Plymouth -Portsmouth 158 (portion working), back in Wales and West days - ostensibly for naval traffic , probably an ORCATS raid.

 

[6Gman]

Can you tell us how many passengers want to make these trips?

Enough to justify (perhaps) an hourly 3 or 4 car dmu. If the route existed.

Not enough to justify building a new railway.

IMHO

 

[PHILIPE]

I believe there was a Plymouth -Portsmouth 158 (portion working), back in Wales and West days - ostensibly for naval traffic , probably an ORCATS raid.

Penzance to Portsmouth it was. 0747 ex Penzance and combined at Westbury with 1030 Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour. Return working was 1422 Portsmouth Hbr to Cardiff splitting at Westbury

 

[moley]

There used to be Plymouth to Brighton services if memory serves and SWT did go down to Plymouth on some trains. I also believe there may have been a Waterloo to Penzance extended from Exeter St David's some years ago using class 50`s through Network SE but I could be wrong. I`ve often been to Westbury where many people have changed from a Portsmouth/Cardiff to and Paddington/Penzance.

I believe there was a Plymouth -Portsmouth 158 (portion working), back in Wales and West days - ostensibly for naval traffic , probably an ORCATS raid.

In the more recent past, the following arose with Class 158/159 units.

There were direct Penzance - Portsmouth services which attached to the Cardiff-Portsmouth train at Westbury. Reverse journey happened with same units after 30 minute layout at Portsmouth Harbour. This was axed when Wessex Trains became part of FGW.

Seperately, on a Saturday, SWT ran a through service to Penzance which was crewed by Wessex Trains crews from either Exeter/Plymouth. On Sunday was a lunchtime departure from Penzance crewed by again by Wessex Trains crews to Plymouth. At Plymouth a portion to Brighton via Portsmouth attached (later scaled back to just Portsmouth).

If there were engineering works south of Exeter, Wessex Trains would run the replacement using their own fleet.

 

[moley]

Penzance to Portsmouth it was. 0747 ex Penzance and combined at Westbury with 1030 Cardiff to Portsmouth Harbour. Return working was 1422 Portsmouth Hbr to Cardiff splitting at Westbury

I had reason to be in Portsmouth for about 30 minutes one day to deliver coursework so actually managed to catch this from Exeter to Portsmouth and return to Exeter on the same day.

 

[PHILIPE]

In the more recent past, the following arose with Class 158/159 units.

There were direct Penzance - Portsmouth services which attached to the Cardiff-Portsmouth train at Westbury. Reverse journey happened with same units after 30 minute layout at Portsmouth Harbour. This was axed when Wessex Trains became part of FGW.

Seperately, on a Saturday, SWT ran a through service to Penzance which was crewed by Wessex Trains crews from either Exeter/Plymouth. On Sunday was a lunchtime departure from Penzance crewed by again by Wessex Trains crews to Plymouth. At Plymouth a portion to Brighton via Portsmouth attached (later scaled back to just Portsmouth).

If there were engineering works south of Exeter, Wessex Trains would run the replacement using their own fleet.

The Saturday/Sunday Waterloo to Penzance was running since FGW took over from Wessex and ceased to run when SWT finished running from Waterloo to Paignton and Plymouth. A FGW Penzance crew worked it.

 

[30907]

From a topographic point of view the main challenge seems to be an extensive area of high ground a few miles north of Lyme Regis around 5 miles wide, looks like you could build a line off the old Bridport branch which could at first follow a valley lying between the Pilsdon Pen area and the Golden Cap area but then you're stuck with this extensive plateau which you'd have to tunnel under before joining the existing line at Axminster. I'm guessing this is why they never built a line that way; curves at Dorchester and at Yeovil would probably be the easiest way of doing it.

You would actually want a more direct route than the old branch, as in the Victorian proposals. However, it would need a tunnel into the upper Brit valley and another (or two) west of Charmouth (or a cliff-face route a la Dawlish which would be a geological disaster area). See post #9.

 

[edwin_m]

Wasn't the LSWR main line inland with branches to the various coastal towns purely because building nearer to the coast would have been incredibly difficult?

 

[MotCO]

There was a Jurassic Coast bus link (X53) connecting Exeter with Lyme Regis and Weymouth, but I believe declining passenger numbers and withdrawal of subsidy led to its demise. I realise that a bus and train are not the same, but it could demonstrate that there is not the demand for a similar rail service.

 

[K.o.R]

I remember many years ago seeing a two-coach 150 leaving Portsmouth Harbour bound for Par.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Connections from Westbury to the west aren't what they could be. I can recall leaving Frome on a Sunday afternoon in the company of people who were heading for Exeter. Their route was to pick up a service to Bristol at Westbury and then change to reach Exeter. Presumably that worked better than waiting at Westbury for a direct service via Castle Cary.

 

[jopsuk]

Given how minor a road the A35 is- busy perhaps, but it is narrow, twisty and goes through villages, not round them- there's an implication that the transport corridor is either
A: low in demand
B: hugely underserved and in need of massive investment to unlock demand