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Is Heathrow Express a good use of resources?

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coppercapped

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Since the project was started by British Rail yes.
NO.
The rail link concept was started by BAA to meet its commitments to increase the proportion of public transport travel to Heathrow above that achieved by the Piccadilly line.

BR was happy to play along as a joint venture partner as Paddington and its approaches at the time (planning starting in the late 1980s) had spare capacity and BR/NSE could offer the use of two platforms without impacting other services. The extra income was welcome. BR paid for the electrification and the Stockley Park flying junction and BAA for the tunnels and stations.

Another attempt to increase public transport use at the time was the designation of the outside lane of the M4 from the airport junction to the start of the two lane elevated section as a bus lane. It was finally finished at the time HEx started operation - so almost never saw a coach or bus but did create longer queues of cars on the M4 - one of John Prescott's more significant successes.
 
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ChiefPlanner

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Such a situation might be if three or four colleagues are going from (say) an office in London Bridge to an address in the city for a meeting, carrying bulky presentations/bundles of documents and want to have a confidential chat on way and arrive refreshed.

In these (limited) circumstances a black taxi is still the best option.

That sums it up nicely , and something in the past I have done many times ! .....
 

coppercapped

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I did say Liverpool Street and Canary Wharf. The kind of people who will be going straight from a flight into the office will likely work for an organisation with offices in one of these locations.

Crossrail will offer the ability to reach Farringdon/Liv St in 28 minutes, Canary Wharf in 40 mins direct from Heathrow. Why would you choose HEX, spend 20 mins in a big comfy seat but then have to faff around changing trains at Paddington? I suspect many will tolerate the less comfortable surroundings of Crossrail for a much speedier and less stressful journey!

As anyone who has ever used it will know, city airport offers a very useful service but from few destinations. IIRC BA’s New York service, the airport’s only intercontinental flight, is one flight daily in an A318 with around 40 seats - hardly significant compared to the mass business class influx to Heathrow every morning.
Not all of whom are going to Liverpool Street or the Docklands. Several large US corporations have offices in or near Reading - Microsoft, Verizon, Pepsico and Oracle for starters. Other destinations are available.

Not every international business traveller is in the banking business.

I would just let the situation evolve - HEx's traffic may fall because of Crossrail, on the other hand it might increase with the general increase in air travel and the emergence of other commercial and financial areas in and around London. It is the job of HEx's managers to decide on its approach to changing circumstances - regardless of opinions posted here.
 

JamesRowden

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Not all of whom are going to Liverpool Street or the Docklands. Several large US corporations have offices in or near Reading - Microsoft, Verizon, Pepsico and Oracle for starters. Other destinations are available.

Not every international business traveller is in the banking business.

I would just let the situation evolve - HEx's traffic may fall because of Crossrail, on the other hand it might increase with the general increase in air travel and the emergence of other commercial and financial areas in and around London. It is the job of HEx's managers to decide on its approach to changing circumstances - regardless of opinions posted here.
Heathrow Express can be terminated if the Government choose it to be so. The government is accountable to many of the people posting in this thread.
 

matt_world2004

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NO.
The rail link concept was started by BAA to meet its commitments to increase the proportion of public transport travel to Heathrow above that achieved by the Piccadilly line.

BR was happy to play along as a joint venture partner as Paddington and its approaches at the time (planning starting in the late 1980s) had spare capacity and BR/NSE could offer the use of two platforms without impacting other services. The extra income was welcome. BR paid for the electrification and the Stockley Park flying junction and BAA for the tunnels and stations.

Another attempt to increase public transport use at the time was the designation of the outside lane of the M4 from the airport junction to the start of the two lane elevated section as a bus lane. It was finally finished at the time HEx started operation - so almost never saw a coach or bus but did create longer queues of cars on the M4 - one of John Prescott's more significant successes.
So you say there would be no rail link to heathrow airport without the heathrow express but then highlight another example of a rail link to heathrow airport in the thread you wrote. Most infrastructure projects like the heathrow tunnel are join ventures. Eurostar was a join venture. The picadilly line to terminal 5 was a joint venture Crossrail had several partners including BAA.
 
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matt_world2004

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Not all of whom are going to Liverpool Street or the Docklands. Several large US corporations have offices in or near Reading - Microsoft, Verizon, Pepsico and Oracle for starters. Other destinations are available.

And for these companies you quote.the heathrow express is more convienant for them over Crossrail because...
 

daikilo

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Heathrow Express can be terminated if the Government choose it to be so. The government is accountable to many of the people posting in this thread.

Given that Heathrow Airport is a private company, it is not clear to me that unilateral termination is possible without say an equivalent replacement or a significant financial penalty.
 

matt_world2004

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Given that Heathrow Airport is a private company, it is not clear to me that unilateral termination is possible without say an equivalent replacement or a significant financial penalty.
They are only contracted to use the gwml for a period of time 2022 I believe their access rights expire.
 

JamesRowden

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Given that Heathrow Airport is a private company, it is not clear to me that unilateral termination is possible without say an equivalent replacement or a significant financial penalty.
The contract for GWML paths does not last forever.
 

Bald Rick

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Consider also the options for public transport to Heathrow from say Shenfield - or East Anglia by changing at Stratford - a simple change to Crossrail - as opposed to a tedious schlep around the Circle lines and not the easiest interchange to HEX at Padd.

Two changes if changing at Startford old boy. AIUI all the Crossrail Heathrow servcie will go to Abbey Wood. However it will be relatively straight forward at Liverpool St.


My take on HEx is that Crossrail will take a but bite out of the HEx custom. But probably not enough to cause HAL to want to drop it. Particularly in the event that Runway 3 is built.

I also suspect that if there was a truly competitive world of track access where 'slots' into Paddington were auctioned, HEx would be willing to pay more than any other operator. They are very lucrative services, and do provide a decent income to the rail industry through track access charges.
 

matt_world2004

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Two changes if changing at Startford old boy. AIUI all the Crossrail Heathrow servcie will go to Abbey Wood. However it will be relatively straight forward at Liverpool St.
.

That is hardly going to be a complicated change though is it .walking off the platform of one train and waiting there for another train two minutes behind it.
 

Mintona

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Couldn't agree more - there is nothing more frustrating than being on an 125mph HST heading towards Paddington only for the brakes to come on at West Drayton as a 100mph max HEX unit gets priority. If HEX didn't exist today and someone applied to run 100mph max units every 15 mins on the 125mph fast lines into and out of Paddington they'd be laughed out of court.

The problem is the timings between Reading and Paddington. An HST will do it in 22-23 minutes, but is booked a minimum of 26, and quite often 28. As a result, if the train is being driven at top speed it will arrive at Airport Junction early, and therefore be stuck waiting for the HeX. Far better when leaving Reading on time to trundle at around 90-100 and maintain that constant speed all the way to Old Oak Common, and still arrive at Paddington on time.

Another issue is with the Paddington HeX departures, the xx:30 from Bristol is timetabled to arrive into London at xz:14. The HeX departs Paddington at xz:10, and so the HST will always be held outside the station if it has arrived a few minutes early. So again it’s better to just run along at 100mph and get a right time arrival, without having to stop at Royal Oak.

That said, I’m flying from Heathrow next week and wouldn’t dream of taking any method except the Heathrow Express.
 
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daikilo

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The post above the one you're replying to says 2022.

Oops, in which case the timing of the thread is very relevent. And in that case, I suggest 6 Crossrail + 4 HEX is not the best use of pathing resources even if the main issue is the use of the fast lines by all HEX. I suggest 3 fast and 3 semi-fast Crossrail should be close to optimum matching of paths to demand.
 

HowardGWR

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It depends whether your destination / origin is Paddington. If it isn't, another method of accessing Heathrow may be preferable. I think lots of the custom for both GX and HEX are tourists /businessmen who haven't looked into the options. Crossrail will have a big impact, no question.
 

Non Multi

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HEX has a future, more so when Western Access to Heathrow is built. Might be worth moving the 332s on and using 110mph 387s/379s when they're released by other TOCs, so they can split or join with GWR 387s at Paddington or Reading.
 

Tetchytyke

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It'll be interesting to see if, and in what form, HEx carries on. Crossrail will be faster to Oxford Street, the City and to Docklands. The interchange on to the Tube is not easy at Paddington, especially if you're heading towards Kings Cross/Euston. And there's not really that much going on at Paddington, even with the development around the basin.

HEx could consider city-centre check in as a USP, but they tried that before and gave up on it. I genuinely can't see it surviving. I don't think HAL do either, hence their attempt to rinse TfL on access charges.
 

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The interchange on to the Tube is not easy at Paddington, especially if you're heading towards Kings Cross/Euston.
Head to the escalators on Platform 12 or use the footbridge & former taxi ramp for the H&C. I know LU blocked off the old P 13-16 footbridge access, but it's not difficult to get to the H&C platforms if you follow the signs. I do accept it's a long walk.
 

matt_world2004

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Fewer bears ;)

Please may I ask anyone who knows whether all Crossrail services will be all shacks to Heathrow? It seems sensible to have some faster services.
Crossrails agreement with the freight operators mean that all services will skip stops. I believe however that it will be an alternate service pattern so their would be a fixed journey time of about 20 minutes to hayes. All services will stop at Ealing Broadway and nearly all services will stop at Hayes/Southall but depending on the origin of the service will depend on which combination of if it stops at acton mainline . hanwell or west ealing. So for example the Heathrow service may stop at Hanwell and Acton Mainline the reading services may stop at West Ealing and Acton mainline and the maidenhead services may stop at Hanwell and West Ealing.There will be peak fast services calling at Hayes and Ealing Broadway only but apart from that all services will have a fixed journey time
 

coppercapped

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Heathrow Express can be terminated if the Government choose it to be so. The government is accountable to many of the people posting in this thread.

As daikilo wrote, HAL is a private company. If the Government wanted to terminate its contract early, that is before the 25 year contract ends in 2023, it will have to pay for the privilege. HAL has not been responsible for the general growth in rail travel which is causing the capacity issues on the GWML which so concern people here. Adding additional capacity to cope with this growth is the responsibility of those that use it and their representatives - trying to push an existing operator off the line is morally, and probably legally, wrong. An organisation such as BAA/Heathrow which has invested heavily in rail should not be disadvantaged - it sends all the wrong messages to others who have invested or are considering investing in rail transport. (Unless of course you are one of the group which thinks that all funding should be made by the state...)

So you say there would be no rail link to heathrow airport without the heathrow express but then highlight another example of a rail link to heathrow airport in the thread you wrote. Most infrastructure projects like the heathrow tunnel are join ventures. Eurostar was a join venture. The picadilly line to terminal 5 was a joint venture Crossrail had several partners including BAA.

Some history. Way back in the 1960s there was a plan to run trains to Heathrow from Victoria station. In fact when I was at uni there Grosvenor Bridge over the Thames was being rebuilt and while doing so it was widened with an additional span for the Heathrow trains. I know this - I watched it happen. For one reason or another these trains never came to be and eventually the Piccadilly line was extended to Heathrow as a cheaper option.
In the intervening years air traffic continued to grow and road congestion got worse which increased the transit time to central London - having spent an hour flying from, say, Munich to London, a distance of nearly 600 miles, and then spend more than the flight time on the last 15 was becoming unacceptable. For this reason the Piccadilly line never made a significant penetration into the air market - it was slow, bouncy and uncomfortable and had little room for luggage - it was mostly used by workers at the airport.
BAA needed to improve its offer. As experience with the MoT/DfT showed that Government support and funding for an express service was unlikely to come about - other proposals had been made after the Victoria one - BAA took matters into its own hands and came to a deal with BR. This wasn't a 'joint venture' in the sense now understood but two organisations working for a common goal - BR was responsible for everything out to the junction with BAA's rails - it having received the MoT's approval to spend a not huge amount of money on electrifying some platforms at Paddington, the route to Airport Junction at Stockley Bridge and building a flyover junction. BAA was responsible for funding
and building the tunnels and the stations.

So, without BAA pushing for an improved service to London the Heathrow link would not have been built - the Government had already faffed around for 30 years and achieved nothing. If the tunnels to Heathrow had not been there, Crossrail would not have built them.

And for these companies you quote.the heathrow express is more convienant for them over Crossrail because...
Try reading back up the thread. I was simply responding to
SNIP
... IIRC BA’s New York service, the airport’s only intercontinental flight, is one flight daily in an A318 with around 40 seats - hardly significant compared to the mass business class influx to Heathrow every morning.
by pointing out that not all of the mass business class influx goes to Liverpool Street or Canary Wharf.
 

JamesRowden

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As daikilo wrote, HAL is a private company. If the Government wanted to terminate its contract early, that is before the 25 year contract ends in 2023, it will have to pay for the privilege.

You're the first person to mention ending the contract early. I was referring to the possibility of terminating the service by not signing an extension / new contract.

Not necessarily in 2022 since a new contract could be agreed each time the Great Western franchise is tendered for so that Heathrow Express negotiate a new contract each time a new minimum service level for the GWML is formulated.
 

ainsworth74

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I was referring to the possibility of terminating the service by not signing an extension / new contract.
Same. Plus 2023 would be a good time to review the rail provision to Heathrow as by then Crossrail should be well bedded in so if there is still a need for non-stop service express service it should be clear by then.

Doing anything prior to the end of the existing Access Rights contract would be rather silly as it'd be both very expensive, punish those behind the private investment and could prove to be short sighted depending on how Crossrail impacts on the flow of passengers to Heathrow.
 

coppercapped

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It'll be interesting to see if, and in what form, HEx carries on. Crossrail will be faster to Oxford Street, the City and to Docklands. The interchange on to the Tube is not easy at Paddington, especially if you're heading towards Kings Cross/Euston. And there's not really that much going on at Paddington, even with the development around the basin.

HEx could consider city-centre check in as a USP, but they tried that before and gave up on it. I genuinely can't see it surviving. I don't think HAL do either, hence their attempt to rinse TfL on access charges.
From an arriving HEx train, take the overbridge at the country end of the platform and follow the signs. The H&C platforms are about the same distance, if not closer than, the taxi rank. The interconnection is not nearly as bad as is peddled here.

In addition, there is a connection tunnel being built at Paddington from the Crossrail platforms directly to the Bakerloo line platforms.

And this myth about not much going on at Paddington, or it being out in the sticks, is nonsense. It's been in business since 1838 and the main train shed has been there since 1854. Traffic levels have always seemed to be satisfactory...
 

Ianno87

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From an arriving HEx train, take the overbridge at the country end of the platform and follow the signs. The H&C platforms are about the same distance, if not closer than, the taxi rank. The interconnection is not nearly as bad as is peddled here.

In addition, there is a connection tunnel being built at Paddington from the Crossrail platforms directly to the Bakerloo line platforms.

And this myth about not much going on at Paddington, or it being out in the sticks, is nonsense. It's been in business since 1838 and the main train shed has been there since 1854. Traffic levels have always seemed to be satisfactory...

A great route on foot with a back pack. Not a great route with luggage, for which you have to walk round the buffer stops and most of the way back again, with 'exiting' the station onto the canal basin then re-entering the LU station.

Ironically, the interchange down to the Busy Lizzie at Paddington will be pretty good from Platforms 6 and 7 (turn right at the buffers, then down the escalators/lifts).
 

coppercapped

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You're the first person to mention ending the contract early. I was referring to the possibility of terminating the service by not signing an extension / new contract.

Not necessarily in 2022 since a new contract could be agreed each time the Great Western franchise is tendered for so that Heathrow Express negotiate a new contract each time a new minimum service level for the GWML is formulated.
If one refers to terminating a contract or service it means it is being cancelled prematurely. If you meant to say that it shouldn't be renewed after expiry then a more explicit form of words would avoid misunderstanding.
 
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