Discussion of transgender issues

[Confused147]

Mod Note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ne-suspended-jail-for-the-perpetrator.160987/

Would they have gone to a womans prison or a male prison?

 

[Chris M]

Would they have gone to a womans prison or a male prison?

A transgender person should be placed in accommodation appropriate to the gender they identify as, in this instance that would be a female prison. To do otherwise puts the person at a very significantly increased risk of harm from other prisoners* (and this increases the further through their transition they are), a significantly increased risk of mental health issues and/or self harm (including suicide), and from being mistreated by staff (intentionally or otherwise)*.
The prisons service though is very inconsistent regarding its treatment and placement of transgender people in custody, and so I don't want to say whether they would get it right or wrong in any given case.

*Obviously these should not be the case, but for reasons that are off topic for this forum they currently are.

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed, the prisons service is in an appalling state (principally due to endless budget cuts I believe) and many (in some cases all) of those incarcerated do not get any help, education or training while inside. This means that the prison is failing in one of its primary duties, which is to enable those who have been imprisoned to become productive members of society upon release.

The other issue here is the ongoing and unresolved controversy surrounding transgender people and gendered prisons.

 

[Chris M]

The other issue here is the ongoing and unresolved controversy surrounding transgender people and gendered prisons.

Indeed, see my post above (which probably crossed with yours). The is a lot of learning and a lot of resulting actions needed from the prisons service in this regard, some of which would be hard in any case (as would anything requiring a fundamental change to long-held practices and assumptions) but prisons are in such a crisis that even simple, day-to-day things that should require no thinking are not being done, let alone the higher order things.

 

[Bromley boy]

A transgender person should be placed in accommodation appropriate to the gender they identify as, in this instance that would be a female prison.

Are you sure? After reading the below article I'm inclined to disagree with you.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

Dragging on her king-sized cigarette in front of a no-smoking sign, her long, red-dyed hair falling over her silver fur coat, Davina Ayrton smiled at the camera just before she was sentenced to eight years in prison for raping a schoolgirl.

For anyone asking how a woman can be convicted of rape — which in law requires the use of a penis — the answer is Ayrton, previously known as David, was a man when she pinned down her 15-year-old victim in a Portsmouth garage. She still has her male genitalia.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Are you sure? After reading the below article I'm inclined to disagree with you.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/up-to-half-of-trans-inmates-may-be-sex-offenders-26rz2crhs

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...lse-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

 

[AlterEgo]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...lse-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

The report this rebuttal claims to discredit does not actually say what the discrediter - a trans activist - says it does.

The report is here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

It says up to 41 per cent of trans inmates may be sex offenders *or Dangerous Category A Inmates*.

It doesn’t in any way claim that all those people are sex offenders.

 

[Bromley boy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...lse-study-statistic-this-is-why-a8072431.html

1. I'll go with the Times article rather than a "voices" piece written in the Indepenent by someone called Owl Fisher, who is revealed by a google search to be a "non binary trans activist".

2. Nothing in this negates the issue raised in the Times article - namely a physiologically male prisoner who raped a 15yo girl potentially being placed into a womens' prison based on their assumed gender.

 

[AlterEgo]

1. I'll go with the Times article rather than a "voices" piece written in the Indepenent by someone called Owl Fisher, who is revealed by a google search to be a "non binary trans activist".

See my post above. Owl Fisher (of all the names to choose for yourself...) simply misrepresented the report entirely, throughout their article. It never said what they said it said. They wasted a load of electrons rebutting something imaginary.

 

[Wivenswold]

I'm not a huge fan of dog-whistle reporting. "Shocking headline", followed by "This country huh, this is disgusting", eventually leading to "actually there's more to this than the headline suggests" and concluding with "that's probably about right actually".

It's all about inducing rage and fear. Sadly the masses fall for it. Court News UK is run by a couple of mavericks who appear to have an MO of trying to make the UK look scarier than it really is. Their oblique company name (Central News Limited) gets rather lost in Google searches for using generic words and that's usually a sign that there are links to other interest groups, companies or regimes that they'd rather wasn't made very public. In all probability they use psychometric facilitators to target highly combustible social media users to repost to groups or regimes who also have an MO of upsetting the status quo and influencing political outcomes.

In short, the same method that brought Trump into power and Brexit chaos to Britain. Be warned, the "Alternative (Hybrid) War" is in progress.

 

[farleigh]

"A transgender person should be placed in accommodation appropriate to the gender they identify as, in this instance that would be a female prison. To do otherwise puts the person at a very significantly increased risk of harm from other prisoners* (and this increases the further through their transition they are), a significantly increased risk of mental health issues and/or self harm (including suicide), and from being mistreated by staff (intentionally or otherwise)*"
ChrisM, you are very confident in your views, or are they facts. Is there any evidence to back these statements up? I would be interested in this.

 

[Chris M]

"A transgender person should be placed in accommodation appropriate to the gender they identify as, in this instance that would be a female prison. To do otherwise puts the person at a very significantly increased risk of harm from other prisoners* (and this increases the further through their transition they are), a significantly increased risk of mental health issues and/or self harm (including suicide), and from being mistreated by staff (intentionally or otherwise)*"
ChrisM, you are very confident in your views, or are they facts. Is there any evidence to back these statements up? I would be interested in this.

My comment was a factual statement based on research carried out fairly recently (I think last year) and fits with all the other research available of which I am aware. I'm not currently in a position to provide a link, but it should be pretty easy to find - just make sure you look at actual scholarly articles not the bile published by those pushing an anti-trans or similar agenda (sadly this is not always easy to filter out).

 

[Bromley boy]

My comment was a factual statement based on research carried out fairly recently (I think last year) and fits with all the other research available of which I am aware. I'm not currently in a position to provide a link, but it should be pretty easy to find - just make sure you look at actual scholarly articles not the bile published by those pushing an anti-trans or similar agenda (sadly this is not always easy to filter out).

Do you believe convicted rapists such as Davina Ayrton mentioned in the times article I linked to should be placed into women’s prisons if they identify as women?

It is worrying that the government is moving to “self determination” - with no objective medical evidence of gender dysphoria required. This looks to me rather like jumping onto the latest PC bandwagon...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Do you believe convicted rapists such as Davina Ayrton mentioned in the times article I linked to should be placed into women’s prisons if they identify as women?

Yes. Yes they should.

Once they are in the women's prison, we can then do an assessment and decide whether they need to be kept in segregation for the safety of other prisoners.

The ones who think it's cushy will soon learn it isn't (women's prisons are not softer, and they're certainly not if you're in segregation).

Job's a good 'un.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yes. Yes they should.

Once they are in the women's prison, we can then do an assessment and decide whether they need to be kept in segregation for the safety of other prisoners.

The ones who think it's cushy will soon learn it isn't (women's prisons are not softer, and they're certainly not if you're in segregation).

Job's a good 'un.

Possibly at the risk of going off topic... although I’d argue this question is relevant as the criminal mentioned in the OP is trans gender.

I can see some issues with that approach(!) given what we are told about prisons being understaffed, overcrowded, violent.

Do they share a cell with a female prisoner when they first arrive?

Does the assessment take place before or after they’ve attacked a female prisoner?

How much more taxpayers money does it cost to House an inmate in isolation?

Personally I’d rather leave them in the male prison.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How much more taxpayers money does it cost to House an inmate in isolation?

Personally I’d rather leave them in the male prison.

If they're in significant danger in the male prison- which as a transgender child rapist, they're gonna be, let's face it- they're still going to be in isolation.

So why sweat the small stuff?

Truthfully, I think people get uppity about this issue because they wrongly perceive female prisons to be softer and cushier than male prisons. They therefore wrongly perceive the offender to be somehow evading justice. Trust me, women's prisons are just as vile as male prisons (indeed, the most violent prison in Scotland is actually a female prison).

 

[Chris M]

Do you believe convicted rapists such as Davina Ayrton mentioned in the times article I linked to should be placed into women’s prisons if they identify as women?

Yes.
If there is a risk that any prisoner is going to be a danger to other prisoners they should be segregated from them. The gender of either party and the reason why they are a (potential) danger is completely irrelevant.
If a risk assessment has not taken place, then you default to the highest risk until the correct level can be assessed - you know, like they (are supposed to) do for every prisoner anyway.

It is worrying that the government is moving to “self determination” - with no objective medical evidence of gender dysphoria required. This looks to me rather like jumping onto the latest PC bandwagon...

Why is it worrying?
What is "objective medical evidence" of dysphoria?
What is a "PC bandwagon"? Why is giving transgender people the same right to self-determination of gender as cisgender people an example of one?

 

[Bromley boy]

If there is a risk that any prisoner is going to be a danger to other prisoners they should be segregated from them. The gender of either party and the reason why they are a (potential) danger is completely irrelevant.

So on that basis are you in favour of abandoning male and female prisons and mixing all prisoners together?

Why is it worrying?
What is "objective medical evidence" of dysphoria?
What is a "PC bandwagon"? Why is giving transgender people the same right to self-determination of gender as cisgender people an example of one?

If I’m the kind of person who likes to go around raping school girls I might quite fancy spending some time in a female prison... I don’t think the word of a convicted rapist is enough...

As I understand it the existing system provides checks and balances - a couple of years with the condition and evidence from a medical professional.

As a general point I think the current obsession with gender identity is overblown - gender dysphoria is a real issue but it affects a tiny minority of people.

Personally I have no issue with men or women wishing to identify or live as another gender. But the fact of the matter is that a man living as a woman is still a man and to suggest otherwise (for instance changing a birth certificate) is a lie.

This article sums up the current situation well in my view:

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...re-of-transgender-politics/20116#.Wo2m33CnyaM

Britain is going full Orwell. The Tory government is proposing to include in the Gender Recognition Bill the ‘right’ to alter the sex on one’s birth certificate. So if a 32-year-old man decides that he is in fact a woman, he could be able to go to the General Register Office and insist that the word ‘Boy’ be erased from his birth certificate and replaced with the word ‘Girl’, or ‘Female’. Even though he was not a girl when that certificate was drawn up. Even though the midwife who declared ‘It’s a boy!’ when he was born, and the birth registrar who later wrote the word ‘Boy’ or ‘Male’ on his birth certificate, were telling the truth. That truth, that publicly recorded truth, that national truth, would be replaced with a lie. We’ve entered Ministry of Truth territory. The memory hole is real.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Do you believe convicted rapists such as Davina Ayrton mentioned in the times article I linked to should be placed into women’s prisons if they identify as women?

It is worrying that the government is moving to “self determination” - with no objective medical evidence of gender dysphoria required. This looks to me rather like jumping onto the latest PC bandwagon...

HOUSE!

Oh sorry, am I the only one playing Reactionary Bingo?

 

[Tetchytyke]

This article sums up the current situation well in my view:

If you're agreeing with Brendan O'Neill- who also believes that racism at football matches isn't really racism, and that the victims of childhood sexual abuse should just shut up- then you are automatically wrong.

Personally I have no issue with men or women wishing to identify or live as another gender. But the fact of the matter is that a man living as a woman is still a man and to suggest otherwise (for instance changing a birth certificate) is a lie.

What is a man? What is a woman? Who are you to decide what somebody considers themselves to be? What business is it of yours?

Why, for that matter, does my birth certificate need to record what genitals I was born with?

That's the amusing thing with all these so-called libertarians, like professional bellend Brendan O'Neill. There should be no government rules or restrictions, unless you want to do something they don't want you to be (transgender, Islamic...). They make Stalin look relaxed.

As I said, I suspect your real issue is that you think a woman's prison is cushy and that you somehow think transgender people are dodging justice.

 

[Tetchytyke]

HOUSE!

Oh sorry, am I the only one playing Reactionary Bingo?

Not quite house. House was when Brendan O'Neill got wheeled out

 

[Chris M]

So on that basis are you in favour of abandoning male and female prisons and mixing all prisoners together?

I'm not quite sure what logic you used to get from my comments to that, as I didn't say anything of the sort.
Certainly males and females should not share cells under any circumstance (not even in the unlikely event that two are married to each other). However, there might be benefits for those prisoners who are not a danger to members of the opposite sex to be housed in mixed facilities. For example it seems logical that providing facilities, training, etc. to one group of prisoners is going to be cheaper than duplicating it, and the world they will be returned to on release is a mixed-gender environment where they will need to interact with people of every gender in the workplace, etc. so being in such an environment seems likely to be better preparation for that time. There will be many other factors to consider though (some positive, some negative). I'm not an expert in prisons and I've never read any research into this question (I don't even know if any has been done or not - it's not something I've thought about in detail before) so I'm not going to come down hard for or against.

If I’m the kind of person who likes to go around raping school girls I might quite fancy spending some time in a female prison... I don’t think the word of a convicted rapist is enough...

Firstly, how many school girls do you think there is going to be in a women's prison? (clue, the answer is none. They'll be in secure accommodation for children/young adults, not housed with adult women).
Secondly, if you present a risk to (some) other inmates you will not be placed in the general population with them, regardless of your or their gender.

As I understand it the existing system provides checks and balances - a couple of years with the condition and evidence from a medical professional.

Read up about gatekeeping, and all the problems that causes. Just don't read anything by someone with an anti-trans agenda, as that's like learning all you know about railways from someone who is campaigning to turn them all into roads (only worse, as we're talking about people's lives here).

As a general point I think the current obsession with gender identity is overblown - gender dysphoria is a real issue but it affects a tiny minority of people.

Funnily enough the only people who seem obsessed about it are those who are either (a) living with gender dysphoria, or (b) pushing a right wing, anti-transgender agenda.

Personally I have no issue with men or women wishing to identify or live as another gender. But the fact of the matter is that a man living as a woman is still a man and to suggest otherwise (for instance changing a birth certificate) is a lie.

What gives you the right to determine who is and is not a man or a woman?
What are your relevant qualifications?
What criteria are you using to judge?
Why have you chosen to use those criteria?
How have you validated that those criteria are relevant and reliable?
What is the purpose of recording gender on a birth certificate?

This article sums up the current situation well in my view:
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...re-of-transgender-politics/20116#.Wo2m33CnyaM

Arctic Troll above has comprehensively demolished the reliability of that article. I've nothing more worthwhile to add to that.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bromley boy]

If you're agreeing with Brendan O'Neill- who also believes that racism at football matches isn't really racism, and that the victims of childhood sexual abuse should just shut up- then you are automatically wrong.

Has he? I wouldn't know. We aren't talking about what he's written on other subjects we're talking about this article. In this case I agree generally with what he's written. I notice you've not actually addressed the writing itself, just attacked the writer which strikes me as playing the man not the ball.

If you believe someone who has written something you disagree with is automatically wrong on all other subjects, I'm afraid that just shows you as biased and highlights a deficiency in your own reasoning.

What is a man? What is a woman? Who are you to decide what somebody considers themselves to be? What business is it of yours?

Men have several physical and genetic identifying features. Someone who is born a man, has a sex change and lives as a woman is still a man. Ask a doctor or a geneticist. That is not a statement of opinion, or something that can be denied, it is a fact. I don't doubt that pointing that out might be unfashionable or may offend the "right-on" sensibilities of some posters on here.

What does seem Orwellian and genuinely frightening is that we rapidly seem to be approaching a state of affairs in this country where facts matter less than opinions, and it is becoming frowned upon to state facts where they might offend the latest PC hobby horse or the unusual sensibilities of a particular minority group.

Why, for that matter, does my birth certificate need to record what genitals I was born with?

Does it need to state your date of birth either? Do you think you should be allowed to change your birth certificate because you identify as being younger or older than you really are?

What other bits of history should we be able to retrospectively deny or change from time to time when it suits?

That's the amusing thing with all these so-called libertarians, like professional bellend Brendan O'Neill. There should be no government rules or restrictions, unless you want to do something they don't want you to be (transgender, Islamic...). They make Stalin look relaxed.

The usual left wing blind spot reveals itself. Ask a few muslims for their views on trans gender individuals if you want to hear some truly illiberal views....

As I said, I suspect your real issue is that you think a woman's prison is cushy and that you somehow think transgender people are dodging justice.

Not the case. I just don't particularly like the idea of a bloke whose raped a 15yo being let loose in an environment where he's surrounded by a load of imprisoned, potentially vulnerable women in an understaffed violent prison. If believing that makes me a reactionary, where do I sign-up?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Does it need to state your date of birth either? Do you think you should be allowed to change your birth certificate because you identify as being younger or older than you really are?

You can do better than that.

You could even answer my question: why does gender need to be recorded on a birth certificate?

Not the case. I just don't particularly like the idea of a bloke whose raped a 15yo being let loose in an environment where he's surrounded by a load of imprisoned, potentially vulnerable women

Hmm. Who mentioned being let loose?

Your objection appeared to be the cost of segregation. He'll be segregated anyway- neither child rapists nor trans people have much fun in jail, so he'll need to be for his own safety.

So what else is it?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ask a few muslims for their views on trans gender individuals if you want to hear some truly illiberal views

Ah yes, that old chestnut.

"Some Muslims are illiberal so we should ban Islam, even though I agree with all the illiberal things they do".

But of course.

 

[Chris M]

@Bromley boy would you please answer the questions asked of you rather than claiming to be right because you are right. Even the ones you claim to answer you haven't.

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm not quite sure what logic you used to get from my comments to that, as I didn't say anything of the sort.

What I'm asking is at what point do you think we say that assumed (by the individual) gender trumps biological reality? Should we stop distinguishing between men and women?

Certainly males and females should not share cells under any circumstance (not even in the unlikely event that two are married to each other). However, there might be benefits for those prisoners who are not a danger to members of the opposite sex to be housed in mixed facilities. For example it seems logical that providing facilities, training, etc. to one group of prisoners is going to be cheaper than duplicating it, and the world they will be returned to on release is a mixed-gender environment where they will need to interact with people of every gender in the workplace, etc. so being in such an environment seems likely to be better preparation for that time. There will be many other factors to consider though (some positive, some negative). I'm not an expert in prisons and I've never read any research into this question (I don't even know if any has been done or not - it's not something I've thought about in detail before) so I'm not going to come down hard for or against.

No issue with any of that, although an obvious issue is what if inmates have sexual relationships and. conceive children in prison. But not sex offenders.

Firstly, how many school girls do you think there is going to be in a women's prison? (clue, the answer is none. They'll be in secure accommodation for children/young adults, not housed with adult women).

Someone who has attacked a 15yo might attack a mentally unstable, vulnerable young woman in a prison.

Read up about gatekeeping, and all the problems that causes. Just don't read anything by someone with an anti-trans agenda, as that's like learning all you know about railways from someone who is campaigning to turn them all into roads (only worse, as we're talking about people's lives here).

I have a suspicion that anyone who isn't a pro trans activist is anti trans, your view. I have no issue with men or women identifying as a different gender. I do have an issue with documents of public record being rewritten and facts being denied in order to pacify sensibilities or avoid causing offence.

Funnily enough the only people who seem obsessed about it are those who are either (a) living with gender dysphoria, or (b) pushing a right wing, anti-transgender agenda.

I'm not obsessed with it. No particular skin in the game. I'm not too happy about reports of surgery being offered to children and teenagers. Children and teenagers are often confused about sexuality, identity and any irreversible surgery should be left until they are mature enough able to make a decision there is no reasonable doubt they will live to regret.

What gives you the right to determine who is and is not a man or a woman?

Addressed above in my previous response to Arctic Troll.

Arctic Troll above has comprehensively demolished the reliability of that article. I've nothing more worthwhile to add to that.

[/QUOTE]

He's said nothing worthwhile either. He's said the writer wrote something he disagreed with on another topic.

 

[Bromley boy]

You could even answer my question: why does gender need to be recorded on a birth certificate

As usual you avoid answering the bits of my posts you cannot argue with. Like the bits about biological reality that a man who has a sex change is still physiologically and genetically male.

My understanding is that it is biological sex, not gender, that is recorded on a birth certificate. Why that is recorded I've never given much thought to, I doubt the vast majority of people do. At a pinch - perhaps because birth certificates were commonly used as a method of identification in an era before photographs, passports, photo driving licences. Sex, age, place of birth, parents names, was all they really had to go on.

I do not believe it's right for someone identifying as a different gender to rewrite history and change the biological sex on their birth certificate, a document of public record.

You haven't still haven't answered my question to you. If you believe it's acceptable to deny the fact of biological sex, is it acceptable to change the date of birth because the person wishes to appear younger or older than they really are.

Your objection appeared to be the cost of segregation. He'll be segregated anyway- neither child rapists nor trans people have much fun in jail, so he'll need to be for his own safety.

If he's a male prisoner whose segregated in a male prison, why move him to a female prison where according to you he will be segregated anyway (so no difference for him!) and there *may* be a risk that he would have the opportunity to attack a vulnerable female inmate?

This is going to be an even bigger problem in future if gender becomes entirely self determining with no evidence required to show gender dysphoria is present.

I'm a hairy assed 30 something 6"3 bloke, complete with beard, I doubt you or anyone else reading this would be too happy if your wife/daughter/girlfriend found me in the female toilets at your local shopping centre/swimming pool because I'd decided to identify as female that day. Note that you'd have to take my word for that with no other evidence...

 

[Bromley boy]

Ah yes, that old chestnut.

"Some Muslims are illiberal so we should ban Islam, even though I agree with all the illiberal things they do".

But of course.

Nice straw man argument there. No one has said Islam should be banned, and it was you that brought it up.

It’s just ironic that you apparently see no distinction between Muslims and transgender individuals - both equally oppressed minority groups in your view I’m sure.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nice straw man argument there. No one has said Islam should be banned, and it was you that brought it up.

It’s just ironic that you apparently see no distinction between Muslims and transgender individuals - both equally oppressed minority groups in your view I’m sure.

Just a quick point. Your "Why can't someone change their date of birth then?" question was just as much of a straw man (or perhaps I should say straw person!)...

In fact there are so many straw-people arguments in this thread that it presents a fire-risk!