Petition calling for continued investment in electrification

[The Ham]

No, but if the organisational groundwork is put in place now the industry would be ready for the arrival of someone more enlightened into that office. Just like the industry wasn't ready in 2010.

Quite, extra funding for getting projects further through the design process so that the industry knows what they have to do when they get told to get in with it.

 

[Lucan]

Look at the Severn Bridge. The usage is more than Paddington station - 30m vehicles v.s 35m passengers each year. Like it or not, money spent improving the roads gets far more bang for buck.

Funny you mention the Severn Bridge, because it has been expensive. The first one was built 52 years ago and we were told that the toll would last until the bridge had been paid for; we are now told that was reached in January 2018 (but it is unclear how much the UK Government also payed the previous owners to buy the bridges at that point). The present car toll is £5.60 (without VAT) so at todays prices and your flow rates they have so far cost £8.7 billion to road users at todays prices. Of course the matter is more complex than that because traffic flows have increased; OTOH lorries and buses pay much more than cars. Does not sound much bang for a buck to me anyway.

No doubt some people (bankers?) have been raking the money in all this time, so they have certainly seen a bang for a buck; but others like me (living near it) have been paying hand over fist to enable it. It depends how and whether you measure societal cost.

 

[jayah]

Funny you mention the Severn Bridge, because it has been expensive. The first one was built 52 years ago and we were told that the toll would last until the bridge had been paid for; we are now told that was reached in January 2018 (but it is unclear how much the UK Government also payed the previous owners to buy the bridges at that point). The present car toll is £5.60 (without VAT) so at todays prices and your flow rates they have so far cost £8.7 billion to road users at todays prices. Of course the matter is more complex than that because traffic flows have increased; OTOH lorries and buses pay much more than cars. Does not sound much bang for a buck to me anyway.

No doubt some people (bankers?) have been raking the money in all this time, so they have certainly seen a bang for a buck; but others like me (living near it) have been paying hand over fist to enable it. It depends how and whether you measure societal cost.

The fact that people are prepared to pay FAR more to use it than it cost to build, tells you something?

Compare and contrast with HS2.

 

[squizzler]

The fact that people are prepared to pay FAR more to use it than it cost to build, tells you something?

Compare and contrast with HS2.

Hardly surprising more people are using the severn crossing(s) than the HS2, the latter is not yet built! Perhaps the Severn bridge is missing its troll

 

[jayah]

Hardly surprising more people are using the severn crossing(s) than the HS2, the latter is not yet built! Perhaps the Severn bridge is missing its troll

Oh dear.

Have you read the business case for HS2?
The fares from the people using it won't come close to the cost of building it. This is true of most rail schemes.

 

[ed1971]

I have been following this thread with some interest. I feel that trains that do not have their own independent power source on board are a retrograde step.

I find it alarming the number of times that passengers have been stuck on trains, sometimes for several hours, due to power failures for various reasons, including weather conditions. This is even more serious with modern trains that have no opening windows due to having air conditioning. In such a situation the air con won't work in summer and the heating won't work in winter. I have also heard reports this week that the recent snow has been wrecking the traction motors on Northern's 319s.
Having once been on the brink of having a panic attack on a Pendolino when travelling from Manchester Piccadilly to Stockport (due to the small windows and closed in nature of the trains), I am very anxious about going on electric trains and would only like to see more electrification if the trains were bi-modes, which would be able to move under their own power in the event of a power failure.

I read last week that there are moves afoot to ban diesel only trains by 2040, suggesting Hydrogen or Lithium battery power as an alternative on non electrified lines. It needs to be remembered that diesel is relative safe in an accident, as it only ignites under pressure, IE: you can throw a match in it and it won't ignite. Hydrogen and Lithium batteries are the opposite. Recently I was looking at Youtube videos about replacing the Lithium batteries in laptop battery packs. There were warnings NOT to solder the terminals to the batteries, as the heat from the soldering iron can make them explode, which goes to show how potentially dangerous they can be.

On the issue of pollution, I have been reading that a lot of jet fuels are diesel based, are not taxed and air fares are kept artificailly low. Even if you eliminate all pollution and diesel fumes from surface transport, you have still got all the aviation pollution in the sky and around airports. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation#Particulate_Emissions). Take Heathrow airport for example, on average a plane leaves and departs from there every 45 seconds and they are going to extend it. In the 1950s, a pilot told my mother that the pollution from planes was affecting the weather. The summer of 2010 was not a particularly good one, but during the few days that no planes could fly, due to volcanic ash, there was virtually no clouds in the sky. I am therefore inclined to believe that there is an element of truth in this.

There is also the pollution from ships. They run on various types of fuel and the engines can be several 1000s of litres in size, making car engines or DMU engines look like dinky toys.

Finally on a more positive note, last year (when the panic over the health dangers of diesel fumes hit the press), physician Dr. Anthony Frew, (an expert on air pollution and respiratory diseases at Brighton Hospital), who served on the original Royal College of Physicians working party on air pollution, stated that all the pollution that someone is exposed to in their lifetime, only shortens their life on average by two days. (To be a premature death it has to be by six months or longer). https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-...lution-levels-really-public-health-emergency/

 

[Brystar35]

Howdy folks i am from the United States and i heard of more electrification of the UK Railways i became happy that finally they are doing it, but the cancellation makes me sad that they are putting a pause on it, and i wonder why not take the initiative and keep on going.

Electrification can do a whole mess more to the Railway it makes it attractive, makes it faster, more Eco-friendly, more capacity and yet its like they don't like Electrification. I thought the UK was advancing but the whole Bi-mode thing i don't know it seems shallow they are thinking this way, they should electrify the routes that have high traffics that can benefit from electrification not stop electrification.

I say Electrification should continue and also the Electric Spine as well should continue.

 

[Bertie the bus]

With respect, living in America you wouldn’t be paying for it or have to put up with the disruption.

I honestly don’t think anybody interested in the railway thinks electrification is a bad thing but unfortunately the problems with project delays and cost overruns, and also the disruption, mean that just forging ahead regardless isn’t a sensible strategy.

 

[LLivery]

Howdy folks i am from the United States and i heard of more electrification of the UK Railways i became happy that finally they are doing it, but the cancellation makes me sad that they are putting a pause on it, and i wonder why not take the initiative and keep on going.

Electrification can do a whole mess more to the Railway it makes it attractive, makes it faster, more Eco-friendly, more capacity and yet its like they don't like Electrification. I thought the UK was advancing but the whole Bi-mode thing i don't know it seems shallow they are thinking this way, they should electrify the routes that have high traffics that can benefit from electrification not stop electrification.

I say Electrification should continue and also the Electric Spine as well should continue.

The problem is, as with everything else in this country the cost is ridiculous; electrification and HS2 cost per mile is madness compared to our French, German and Spanish counterparts. We also have a clown running the Department for Transport who claims bi-mode is "just as good" as electric. The Great Western, Transpennine and Midland should've been electrified years ago. I'd say other than that, the pressing next phrase is the Chiltern & Snow Hill and infills/branches like the Uckfield, North Downs, Felixstowe, Middlesbrough/Sunderland, Hull, Wolves-Shrewsbury, WCML-North Wales and West of England ML. That would take a load of diesel trains off the electric routes. Running diesel trains on the WCML just so it can travel between Chester and Crewe (20ish min journey) is madness.

 

[47802]

Howdy folks i am from the United States and i heard of more electrification of the UK Railways i became happy that finally they are doing it, but the cancellation makes me sad that they are putting a pause on it, and i wonder why not take the initiative and keep on going.

Electrification can do a whole mess more to the Railway it makes it attractive, makes it faster, more Eco-friendly, more capacity and yet its like they don't like Electrification. I thought the UK was advancing but the whole Bi-mode thing i don't know it seems shallow they are thinking this way, they should electrify the routes that have high traffics that can benefit from electrification not stop electrification.

I say Electrification should continue and also the Electric Spine as well should continue.

Well as has been said the cost overruns have been crazy, it should also be remembered that it isn't entirely stopped a number of schemes are still in progress for completion, electrification to Corby is going ahead, along with a couple of schemes in Scotland, and Edinburgh to Glasgow has just been completed.

 

[backontrack]

The problem is, as with everything else in this country the cost is ridiculous; electrification and HS2 cost per mile is madness compared to our French, German and Spanish counterparts. We also have a clown running the Department for Transport who claims bi-mode is "just as good" as electric. The Great Western, Transpennine and Midland should've been electrified years ago. I'd say other than that, the pressing next phrase is the Chiltern & Snow Hill and infills/branches like the Uckfield, North Downs, Felixstowe, Middlesbrough/Sunderland, Hull, Wolves-Shrewsbury, WCML-North Wales and West of England ML. That would take a load of diesel trains off the electric routes. Running diesel trains on the WCML just so it can travel between Chester and Crewe (20ish min journey) is madness.

I think the list of priorities should go like this:

1) Major mainlines: i.e. Kettering-Derby-Sheffield, East Midlands Parkway/Long Eaton-Nottingham, Nottingham-Ilkeston-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Barnsley-Normanton-Leeds, Sheffield-Doncaster-Cleethorpes, Swinton-Fitzwilliam, York-Leeds-Huddersfield-Guide Bridge, Micklefield-Hull, Doncaster-Selby, Deansgate-Liverpool South Parkway, Reading-Bristol Parkway-Cardiff Central-Neath-Swansea, Royal Wootton Bassett-Chippenham-Bath Spa-Bristol Temple Meads, Reading-Bedwyn-Taunton-Tiverton Parkway-Exeter St Davids-Newton Abbot-Plymouth, Taunton-Bristol Parkway-Gloucester-Derby, Crewe-Chester-Llandudno Junction-Bangor-Holyhead, Warrington Bank Quay-Chester, Stockport-Hazel Grove-Chinley-Sheffield, Haymarket-Aberdeen, Polmont-Perth, Croy-Larbert, Perth-Inverness​

2a) Major branches of those lines: i.e. Oxenholme-Windermere, Lincoln-Newark Northgate, York-Scarborough, Leeds-Halifax-Brighouse-Huddersfield, Northallerton-Middlesbrough, Eaglescliffe-Sunderland-Newcastle, Hull-Bridlington, Newport-Gloucester-Swindon, Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton, Hereford-Bromsgrove, Kidderminster-Ashchurch for Tewkesbury, Newton Abbot-Paignton, Inverkeithing-Markinch/Thornton, Stirling-Alloa

2b) Commuter lines: i.e. Welsh Valleys, Chinley-Ashburys, Rose Hill Marple branch, Buxton branch, Stockport-Greenbank, Bolton-Clitheroe, Leeds-Harrogate-York, Manchester-Southport, Manchester-Kirkby, Manchester Victoria-Halifax, Sowerby Bridge-Brighouse-Mirfield-Wakefield Kirkgate, Woodlesford-Knottingley-Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate-Pontefract Monkhill, Hatfield & Stainforth-Gilberdyke, Sheffield-Retford-Lincoln, Nottingham-Worksop, Belper-Matlock, the Chiltern Mainline, the Snow Hill Lines, the Chase Line, Nuneaton-Leamington Spa, the Stourbridge branch

3) Other regional lines; e.g. Newport-Shrewsbury-Crewe, Shrewsbury-Chester, Borderlands, Water Orton-Norwich, Harwich, Felixstowe, Clacton, Walton, Lowestoft, Yarmouth, Lincoln-Barnetby, Newcastle-Metrocentre etc.

 

[backontrack]

Oh, and petition signed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

All that’s needed is another 99,900 signatures and you can send your fantasy list to your MP to raise in the debate which will have no effect on anything.

 

[jyte]

@ed1971 you make some good arguments about usage of fuel in aviation and shipping.

Currently ships use bunker fuel - that's enormously pollutive but their are currently a lack of cheap alternative fuels, so ships will continue to use it.

Pollution from aircraft is a complex thing. Generally pollution from international travel is ignored in national statistics because it's hard to pin down which country is responsible and for how much pollution. National flights are generally included in pollution stats. The aviation industry operates on a different cost model to shipping and newer engines are more fuel efficient (good for the airlines) and less pollutive (good for everyone else).

The difference between shipping and rail as I see it is very clear. Trains run clear pre-determined routes, and electric power (that could be sourced from green energy like solar panels or wind) can be supplied to the trains the entire length they run - the same is just not possible for ships or planes, which cannot be continuously supplied with electric power for the length they run. In fact, trains are probably the easiest form of transportation to provide with continuous electric power.

Hydrogen power is still mostly out of the question as the stuff is so explosively dangerous that until battery tech properly matures (give it 10 years) we're stuck with fossil fuels. You're right to ask about shipping, but until either regulation forces a change (which could be economically disastrous), alternative transport measures are developed (Atlantic Tunnel anyone?) or market forces drive down prices of alternative fuels (which they are and will continue to do), whataboutism isn't helpful. We have the technology to electrify our railways, and we have the technology to supply the railways with green energy. Electrifying train routes is probably the easiest way to reduce transport based emissions, short of just banning diesel and petrol vehicles...which we probably should have done anyway.

 

[twpsaesneg]

The problem is, as with everything else in this country the cost is ridiculous; electrification and HS2 cost per mile is madness compared to our French, German and Spanish counterparts

I'm intrigued - do you have figures for comparison for wiring per single-track kilometre for our European counterparts?

It's something I've been after for a while.

 

[LLivery]

I'm intrigued - do you have figures for comparison for wiring per single-track kilometre for our European counterparts?

It's something I've been after for a while.

It's not easy to find official figures for the continent so I'm going off the media here.

After a quick look, Spain's Adif is electrifying the 78mi, 125mph, single track, cross-border Salamanca - Fuentes de Oñoro line for €31.7m (EU funded). That's around £28m, works out around €406k (£359k) per single track mi. According to Delta RailGroup's PDF (dated 2010) on the UK Gov website, cost of electrification in the UK £550-650k per single track mi. We all know that price on the Great Western is out the window; most quote GWML elec at 2.8bn. Can't find a figure for Bedford to Corby. There are differences with Spanish OHLE, such as temperature difference but even at 2010 figures, the UK is noticeably higher. HS2 is apparently £403m per mi, LGV Sud Europe Atlantique is I think £315m per mi.

Electrificiation in Spain:
https://www.20minutos.es/noticia/32...lectrificacion-tramo-salamanca-fuentes-onoro/ (Spanish)

UK:
https://assets.publishing.service.g...file/3872/low-cost-electrification-report.pdf

 

[Brystar35]

Darn that really sucks i understand that its about economics and time savings and all that, but maybe there can be other options to electrification.

One of my ideas is probably getting the infrastructure ready to be electrified but that it can put up the poles and all that stuffs at a later date. Another of my ideas is to get outside help to hire companies from outside of the UK that knows about Electrification to come to the UK to help with the production of Electrified Railways across Europe.

I hope that there will still be a continuation of Electrification but of course it has to make sense on where it will work which i agree, but with HS2 coming along there should be diversionary routes just in case that HS2 is closed there is alternatives thats one of the reasons why i favor about Electrifcation because it allows diversionary routes for passengers and freight, easier.

 

[WatcherZero]

There can be other factors like in the UK compensation for engineering works is included in the cost wheras on the continent it isnt, also the love of including massive 60% optimism bias in early figures wheras on the continent they normally use half that buffer. Even when things dont go overbudget in the UK there is a love of maximum exploitation of the contingency being mysteriously utilised. How many major projects can you name that actually were delivered noticeably under budget?

 

[Brystar35]

Also another thing i want to add is there any politician or Figure who wants to see Electrification resume i am sure there is plenty like Richard Branson, any politicians in power, that want to see Electrification continue but that ones that make sense and that has a high traffic capacity to warrant Electrification?

Because that way with Electrification it will relieve Diesels to other parts of the country that need more Railway service, i think someone said that already here?

 

[td97]

In the UK we can only dream...
https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...on-of-its-railways-by-2030-in-new-masterplan/

Austria targets 85% electrification of railways by 2030 in new masterplan
Austrian transport minister Norbert Hofer has laid out the masterplan for ÖBB between 2018 – 2023.

At the forefront of the agenda for Austrian Federal Railways is electrification, as the country aims to electrify 85 per cent of the network by 2030. Currently 73 per cent of the network is electrified.

Addressing Austria’s Federal Council on April 5, Hofer announced plans to electrify two lines in the southeast: the Styrian Eastern railway and the Mattersburger railway.

Around €140 million has been set aside for the refurbishment of ÖBB regional railway lines, work is planned at the Fürnitz freight terminal and the Mattigtalbahn branch line will be refurbished as well.

Hofer also provided the Austrian parliament with an update on the Koralm high-speed railway. He said that 90 per cent of the project is either underway or complete and that 58km out of 66km of the twin tunnels is complete.

However, the scheduled commissioning date has been pushed back from 2024/25 to 2025/26 as a result of difficulties tunnelling. According to a statement on the transport ministry’s website, topographical conditions of the tunnel, which at the deepest point runs approximately 1.2km underground, has caused the tunnel boring machines problems.

Hofer also stressed the importance of safety, stating there would be no savings in this area, and that continuous measures are being introduced to improve mobile connectivity as well as passenger information systems and train announcements on the network.

He added (Translated from German): “With the ÖBB master plan, we are investing more money than ever in the next five years, and the record investment year is 2021, where we are investing €2.6 billion to expand rail infrastructure [securing] 56,000 jobs per year.”

 

[backontrack]

In the UK we can only dream...
https://www.globalrailnews.com/2018...on-of-its-railways-by-2030-in-new-masterplan/

This is what we should be aiming to do.

 

[superkev]

Such a shame that all the recently acquired plant and hard won experience will probably go-to waste like last time after the ecml electrification.
What a way to run a country.
K

 

[Brystar35]

I want to know what happened to the Railway Electrification academies that Network Rail was set to build to learn from Railway electrification of the UK Railway routes, Wales, and Scotland? I thought that they had a vision and was set out to complete it?

I feel there is still alot of potential but there is nothing i can do, i am in the United States, maybe i am not seeing it right?

Its so weird on how all of a sudden we cannot electrify Railways anymore because its very expensive yet other countries has electrified their networks or are in the process of electrifying as its the way of the future.

Sure its expensive in the beginning but look at the benefits, these bi mode trains weigh more for the Railway tracks then electric trains, Electric trains can accelerate faster, there is more capacity, more faster speeds which i think will benefit both passenger and freight. I think Electrification will continue at least for the major high heavy traffic routes and then latter to other routes. Also Electrification is safer for the environment depending on the power source.

Bi-mode trains are a stopgap, NOT the future of the Railways, Electrification is the Future!!!!!!!!

Even in the United States there is a Commuter Railway called "Caltrain" that is being modernized and electrified and getting ready for the implantation of High Speed Rail in California.

Canada is proposing to electrify some of its busiest commuter routes as well, so Electrification is the future at least it will pay off with heavy traffic routes.

I am saying if i was the president or the prime minister of the UK i will champion the modernization and electrification of the Railways in Britain, Scotland and Wales, i would put it as one of my top priorities.

 

[twpsaesneg]

Canada is proposing to electrify some of its busiest commuter routes as well, so Electrification is the future at least it will pay off with heavy traffic routes.

Funny you mention Canadian electrification, many UK staff are being tapped up to help with that! So someone thinks we know what we're doing...

 

[B&I]

Funny you mention Canadian electrification, many UK staff are being tapped up to help with that! So someone thinks we know what we're doing...

Can we send them Grayling, and hope he somehow gets stranded on an ice flow somewhere ?