Is closing slam-doors helpful for dispatch?

[221129]

What even at stations with platform staff who give the signal to the guard to relock the doors after checking they are all closed? ....

Well obviously not... I was referring to unstaffed stations..

 

[Kite159]

Well obviously not... I was referring to unstaffed stations..

Well you could have said rather than making a generalised comment such as "The guard still has to walk the length of the train to check them anyway.."...

Some of us are not mind readers you know ...

 

[hexagon789]

I generally check there's no one behind me or wanting to get on and then give it a good swing shut, but as others have noted most passengers seem to leave them open, the Highland Chieftain always seems to for lose a few minutes at Perth or Stirling while the dispatchers run up and down slamming doors closed.

 

[pt_mad]

Plus, the guard or staff can watch for passengers slamming the doors behind them. If the door is slammed hard, and a hard thud is heard then you know that door is closed even from another coach away.

If it's a half hearted effort then it will likely go onto the catch.

 

[Jonfun]

It might be years of working slam-door trains speaking, but I have to admit I get rather bemused at the effort some staff go to to check that a closed door is actually closed. Yes, it is critical that all doors are checked. But if you can stand on the platform at a given point and observe that the doors are fully in the frame with their handles horizontal, walking up to each and every door individually and jiggling the handle and giving it a little pull is going to prove no more than what you knew already, just with perhaps an extra minute of dwell time while you went and did it.

 

[pt_mad]

It might be years of working slam-door trains speaking, but I have to admit I get rather bemused at the effort some staff go to to check that a closed door is actually closed. Yes, it is critical that all doors are checked. But if you can stand on the platform at a given point and observe that the doors are fully in the frame with their handles horizontal, walking up to each and every door individually and jiggling the handle and giving it a little pull is going to prove no more than what you knew already, just with perhaps an extra minute of dwell time while you went and did it.

Many seem to view it as better safe than sorry. Possibly quite sensibly. As the handle only has to be slightly ajar and the lock may not engage. And CCTV is often such high clarity now that if a door were left on the catch, and the person dispatching was seen only two coaches away and not walking up, then questions would definitely be asked as to why they didn't walk the train. If nothing goes wrong it's fine. But actions will be looked at in detail if there are any dangerous safety incidents such as a HST rolling into the next station with a door on the catch.

It's as much about covering yourself by taking the extra 20 sections to walk the extra two coaches. There's no point rushing. If it's a one person dispatch and it takes 3 minutes to walk the train then so be it. The tocs do understand that it takes longer on these types of train.

 

[daikilo]

There is now so little slam door stock that most dispatchers are gone yet dwell times are unaltered. It is yet another example of where the reduced target becomes the impossible without help from customers. Complete riddance of slam door is the right and justified solution.

 

[pt_mad]

There is now so little slam door stock that most dispatchers are gone yet dwell times are unaltered. It is yet another example of where the reduced target becomes the impossible without help from customers. Complete riddance of slam door is the right and justified solution.

But one minute over time per station is unaccountable on systems anyway.

 

[47271]

Speaking as someone who's been in an emergency stop caused by a mk3 sleeper door swinging open after a carefully supervised departure from Euston three or four years ago then I'd say that there's no easy answer to this.

However as far as I'm concerned the absolute correct thing to do on alighting from a mk3 is to return the droplight to the fully closed position and, so long as there aren't others following, firmly close the door behind you.

I wouldn't shut behind me on boarding unless I know that we're in the last minute or so before departure, or the station is so quiet that I'm certain that no one else will follow.

 

[Mugby]

It's one of my pet hates to see people board or alight from a slam door carriage and leave the door open, especially if they're the last one on/off.

Do they walk out of their houses and leave the front door wide open? The more moronic ones probably do!

 

[Leyland155]

I once closed several of the doors on the ATW Manchester to North Wales slam-door set at Warrington BQ whilst walking down the platform, and was kindly thanked by the despatcher He, somewhat jokingly, suggested I get a job as a despatcher, but the funny thing was that I was already in the process of applying for one!

 

[Chris M]

A few years ago at Newport I was at the western end of the platform photographing. I saw the westernmost passenger door on a HST still open and started walking towards the train to close it. Before I'd taken a complete step the dispatcher called over and asked me to close the door.
Since then I've always made sure to close any open slam doors I pass when people have finished alighting from them (which is rarely the case at Paddington - even though I'm usually in coach A people can still be alighting from first class by the time I walk past it!)

 

[grumblingalong]

As an Anglia intercity guard myself thanks to all of you on this thread who have said you close the doors it is a massive help to us.

Give them a bit of power when you shut them so we can hear they're closed right (yep you read that right I can tell from several coaches away if my mk3 doors are shut right just from the sound they make!!)

As others have pointed out we often have staff but often don't, even with staff if you shut your own door we can focus on checking the PTI and getting the train rolling asap.

Long story short, shut your door, shut other doors if you wish, it always helps!

 

[Jonfun]

Many seem to view it as better safe than sorry. Possibly quite sensibly. As the handle only has to be slightly ajar and the lock may not engage. And CCTV is often such high clarity now that if a door were left on the catch, and the person dispatching was seen only two coaches away and not walking up, then questions would definitely be asked as to why they didn't walk the train. If nothing goes wrong it's fine. But actions will be looked at in detail if there are any dangerous safety incidents such as a HST rolling into the next station with a door on the catch.

It's as much about covering yourself by taking the extra 20 sections to walk the extra two coaches. There's no point rushing. If it's a one person dispatch and it takes 3 minutes to walk the train then so be it. The tocs do understand that it takes longer on these types of train.

There's a distinct difference between taking plenty of time to check and physically touching every single door. Look but not see is an interesting phenomenon where you can be looking straight at something but not quite take it in, which is one reason why the rail industry is hot on fatigue management, and in places like Japan you'll see Drivers and Guards adopting the "point and call" method to reinforce the check in their mind.

The problem isn't generally how the member of staff does the checks, it's whether or not they are done accurately. Every morning before I leave the house I check that I haven't left the iron on, as it could set the house on fitr whilst I'm at work. But that doesn't mean I physically walk from the front door to the ironing board, jiggle the switch and feel the iron to make sure it's off - I can quite comfortably see from the front door that the switch is off and the blue light isn't on. Thus there is no need for a physical check.

 

[DanTrain]

It's one of my pet hates to see people board or alight from a slam door carriage and leave the door open, especially if they're the last one on/off.

Do they walk out of their houses and leave the front door wide open? The more moronic ones probably do!

This attitude concerns me. Sure on a railway forum you might be expected to know this. But saying that, I wouldn’t nescessarily have known to shut behind me, maybe at a small station, but leaving a large terminal like KX or St Pancras, I would expect the dispatch staff to do it in case there was someone behind me. Also, they aren’t the most intuitive doors to people not used to them, and can be really hard to open (I know someone who got stuck on slam door stock and had to go onto the next station because she couldn’t open the door!).

 

[chubs]

This attitude concerns me. Sure on a railway forum you might be expected to know this. But saying that, I wouldn’t nescessarily have known to shut behind me, maybe at a small station, but leaving a large terminal like KX or St Pancras, I would expect the dispatch staff to do it in case there was someone behind me. Also, they aren’t the most intuitive doors to people not used to them, and can be really hard to open (I know someone who got stuck on slam door stock and had to go onto the next station because she couldn’t open the door!).

If you don't know the system nobody is going to blame you, but any most semi frequent travellers on the GEML are used to it by now and seem to do it.

The droplight windows being left open is my personal bugbear, especially as most of the vestibule doors are permanently broken - nobody wants to be blasted with cold air in the carriage.

 

[underbank]

I saw some poor bloke knocked out as he was leaving a slam-door train when the guy in front of him slammed the door closed in his face as he stepped onto the platform.

 

[70014IronDuke]

It's one of my pet hates to see people board or alight from a slam door carriage and leave the door open, especially if they're the last one on/off.

Do they walk out of their houses and leave the front door wide open? The more moronic ones probably do!

<Presses total agreement button>

 

[LowLevel]

It might be years of working slam-door trains speaking, but I have to admit I get rather bemused at the effort some staff go to to check that a closed door is actually closed. Yes, it is critical that all doors are checked. But if you can stand on the platform at a given point and observe that the doors are fully in the frame with their handles horizontal, walking up to each and every door individually and jiggling the handle and giving it a little pull is going to prove no more than what you knew already, just with perhaps an extra minute of dwell time while you went and did it.

I used to be a chargeman at a station with regular slam door services. If we didn't tap the door handle up as we passed we'd fail our dispatch assessment.

To be fair it wasn't something I did regularly but they did watch for it - on top of our assessments the station supervisor had to watch a dispatcher on each shift see a slam door and power door train every single day and log it.

Given the amount of grief even a door on the catch causes it isn't surprising

 

[Mikey C]

Slam doors can be hard to shut from the inside though, if you're small or frail.

It's quite a stretch to reach something to hold on to, and unless you pull the door reasonably firmly, chances are it won't shut properly...

 

[GarethC]

Simply listen to this guard

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8msFFcTw-q3eVdCRzdvTHZKcGs
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8msFFcTw-q3cHQ3Mk1leUllclE

I absolutely love these announcements!

I think I've heard this guard on the approach to Bath in August, lots of international tourists about: "This train is fitted with manually operated doors. When the train has come to a complete stop in the station you will need to lower the window and lean out to operate the handle on the outside of the door" or something along those lines. Lots of tourists standing on the platform at Bristol TM staring at the doors too expecting them to open! Must be rather routine for the staff though.

I seem to be among the majority in closing slam doors as I pass. I've even got up and closed the very front door at Manningtree on a Sunday when it had been left open by someone alighting (I was sat in the front half of the carriage). It then saved the guard walking up.

Gareth

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

Wouldn't it be just easier to convert them to power operated doors?
Back a few years now the N/Z/S cars were converted to "Power assisted doors" The conductor releases the doors using a keyswitch located at every door) a passenger then pushes/pulls on the door and starts to open. Departure time the conductor turns a key to shut the doors and the doors swing back shut. Connie gets the interlock and tells the driver to go.
All it is is an automatic door closer with a motor of some description.

 

[Clip]

Wouldn't it be just easier to convert them to power operated doors?
Back a few years now the N/Z/S cars were converted to "Power assisted doors" The conductor releases the doors using a keyswitch located at every door) a passenger then pushes/pulls on the door and starts to open. Departure time the conductor turns a key to shut the doors and the doors swing back shut. Connie gets the interlock and tells the driver to go.
All it is is an automatic door closer with a motor of some description.

Most are being replaced soon anyway so it would be just a waste of money to do so unless its on the short formed hst sets but even then theres no real need

 

[rebmcr]

Wouldn't it be just easier to convert them to power operated doors?
Back a few years now the N/Z/S cars were converted to "Power assisted doors" The conductor releases the doors using a keyswitch located at every door) a passenger then pushes/pulls on the door and starts to open. Departure time the conductor turns a key to shut the doors and the doors swing back shut. Connie gets the interlock and tells the driver to go.
All it is is an automatic door closer with a motor of some description.

Some Mk3 carriages have had power doors for a while, but they were costly because of the need to custom-fit them to 30+ year old vehicles.

The bulk of them are due to retire in the next year or two, so not much point any more. The few that remain are being converted to a simpler design of powered door.

 

[StoneRoad]

Yep, I shut the doors behind me on the Cumbrian Coast Cl37 sets, Very satisfying clunk, and I check the handle is down.

Partly habit, from working on wooden bodied stock on a narrow-gauge railway, and partly politeness for guard and dispatchers.

 

[jymiee]

As a dispatcher on the ECML I'm expected to tap each handle on the mk3 sets before giving the hand signal to the Guard to lock them. For this reason me and the second dispatcher start at opposite ends of the train and work to the centre. If a passenger were then to open one of the end doors again I would make the journey back to check it. One of the best things about "handle tapping" is that it removes any doubt in my mind that I have checked every single door on my half of the train because it feels unnatural to miss one out. So to answer the question my own way, I certainly don't mind doors being left open because I will be passing them anyways and at the same time closing them isn't going to make me automatically add you to the Christmas card list.

 

[bunnahabhain]

It's very helpful as long as the door doesn't go on the catch. In which case it's a hinderance.

I also find that if you push the door by anything other than the handle, you end up with black on your hands.

Never hold the handle when you close it, it'll have your wrist.

 

[jymiee]

Never hold the handle when you close it, it'll have your wrist.

This is extremely important and relevant. The handle is linked to the door latch so it will spring up with as much force as you close the door with (handle dropped door not closed, handle horizontal, door closed [as a general rule]). Very easy in this case for passengers of all ages to cause themselves injuries by having their hand even just near the handle when closing the door.

 

[bunnahabhain]

This is extremely important and relevant. The handle is linked to the door latch so it will spring up with as much force as you close the door with (handle dropped door not closed, handle horizontal, door closed [as a general rule]). Very easy in this case for passengers of all ages to cause themselves injuries by having their hand even just near the handle when closing the door.

Solid gen. The first instruction we were given on our course was that, and the instructor gave one of the trainees a sharp reminder as she was about to do it as well. Being a relief guard on them it's quite difficult to get the sounds of doors closing differentiated in my head, so for me it's the good old walk and look method for the majority of my dispatches.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Slam doors can be hard to shut from the inside though, if you're small or frail.

It's quite a stretch to reach something to hold on to, and unless you pull the door reasonably firmly, chances are it won't shut properly...

I find them incredibly difficult to open too (though obviously do know how)... I don’t think I’ve ever closed the window after opening one. I’ll try and remember to do that the next time I’m on one. It’s usually the last train of the night and I’m the only person alighting. My excuse is I’m short and only travel on them once or twice a year!