Class 365s to Scotrail

[gingertom]

I’d be tempted to say Hitachi will throw in the ten units for free

one would hope so, as the 365s won't last for ever and would need replaced sooner rather than later. Hitachi wouldn't want anybody else's trains running on what is their patch- professional pride and all that.

 

[delt1c]

Just a thought , but if the 365's were well accepted by customers i wonder if Scotrail would retain them. Having commuted on the 365's regularly they are excellent units and if maintained give a 1st class ride.

 

[mde]

Just a thought , but if the 365's were well accepted by customers i wonder if Scotrail would retain them. Having commuted on the 365's regularly they are excellent units and if maintained give a 1st class ride.

What would you dump for them though? We know the 314s are going, but that's already factored in. Or, are you thinking more along the lines of a service expansion?

 

[delt1c]

What would you dump for them though? We know the 314s are going, but that's already factored in. Or, are you thinking more along the lines of a service expansion?

Thinking of service expansion and the services for which 365's could be ideal

 

[Class 170101]

Sounds like they might be lined up for North Berwicks and Dunbars maybe also Shotts to allow 380s to E&G.

 

[380101]

Sounds like they might be lined up for North Berwicks and Dunbars maybe also Shotts to allow 380s to E&G.

The 365s are going to run as 5 x 8 car units if they are able to be introduced after any modifications that may be needed to allow them to run in Scotland on the E-G.

 

[Domh245]

365523 was at Charnock Richard services this morning.

 

[InOban]

The increasing shortage of dmus in Scotland is in today's Scottish media. Abellio's response included the active negotiations for the 365s, and the potential arrival of one within a few days. Clearly sooner than that, unless they are transporting them one vehicle at a time.

 

[jamieP]

It was hardly a report - it was posted with no source to back it up whatsoever.

Don't need to post my source but as you can now see 523 is on its way to Scotrail.

 

[GusB]

Don't need to post my source but as you can now see 523 is on its way to Scotrail.

That was posted a few days ago, and it hadn't been made clear at that point that the source was an internal one. I understand the reluctance to post such a source, and wouldn't expect any member of rail staff to do so. It wouldn't hurt to explain that a source is internal and cannot be posted, though.

 

[superkev]

I wonder how long it takes to train a driver on a 365.
I believe if there are big differences from what exists it can take upto 4 days mostly classroom.
K

 

[380101]

I wonder how long it takes to train a driver on a 365.
I believe if there are big differences from what exists it can take upto 4 days mostly classroom.
K

It'll be a 3 day conversion course most likely as all the drivers that will be driving it will already sign 380s.

 

[gordonjahn]

Apparently a 365 is on its way to Glasgow today by road: https://twitter.com/clinnick1/status/987996730988875776?s=21 - presumably no expectation of resolution to 385 woes soon.

 

[ScottDarg]

Abellio's response included the active negotiations for the 365s, and the potential arrival of one within a few days. Clearly sooner than that, unless they are transporting them one vehicle at a time.

All 4 vehicles that make up 365523 arrived at Springburn this afternoon

 

[XCTurbostar]

Slap some stickers on it and get it out there.

 

[marks87]

Apparently a 365 is on its way to Glasgow today by road: https://twitter.com/clinnick1/status/987996730988875776?s=21 - presumably no expectation of resolution to 385 woes soon.

What’s the reason for being by road?

No clearance on any route north, even if dragged?

 

[Domh245]

What’s the reason for being by road?

No clearance on any route north, even if dragged?

They won't have clearance north of Peterborough (or if you can use historic running as an example, as far as york) and sorting that gauge clearance for hauling, or full route clearing for them to go under their own power, will have cost a fair bit and will have taken a while to sort.

 

[InOban]

All four vehicles have arrived at Springburn.

 

[GaryBrown156]

Hi
I just spotted this EMU? arriving at St Rollox Rail Care in Glasgow and I was wondering if anyone "in the know" could identify it for me please (class, operator ect). all I know for sure is it isn't a local train as Scotrail doesn't operate this class so I suspect it has arrived from "down south" , the reason I believe it to be an "EMU" is because one of the centre carriages had what appeared to be a pantograph although I only got a very brief look at it so I could be mistaken.
Thanks in advance

 

[Domh245]

That's 365523, which is going to Scotrail for evaluation purposes before a few more come up to start operating on the Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk High route, because of the delay to the 385s. Has been discussed in detail recently in both the class 385 thread, and the "365s to store" thread

 

[energol]

Training starting in a few weeks from Eastfield depot.

 

[GaryBrown156]

Thanks for the info Domh245 , very interesting
I just got a better view of it there as it appeared from the train shed assisted by the shunter , I see now that it's a 4 car EMU and the unit number is "365523"

 

[mde]

And, never let it be said that the TSSA aren't on the ball… a story in the Herald (and Evening Times) complaining about Abellio, ROSCOs and pretty much everyone else. The SR statement about 365s features.

http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...o_England_despite_chronic_overcrowding_issues
Dozen trains used by ScotRail moved to England despite chronic overcrowding issues
Last night, a transport union blasted the move as "bad management" by ScotRail's Dutch-owned operator, Abellio.

"As summer approaches, passenger density gets higher so it's no time for Scotland to be losing trains from the service," said Manuel Cortes, general secretary of the TSSA union.

The dozen ScotRail trains served routes between Scotland's Central Belt and Aberdeenshire. Northern Rail runs services in English regions, including the north-west and north-east, as well as in Yorkshire and Humberside.

After ScotRail's lease on the trains expired with leasing company Porterbrook, the firm agreed a deal for the dozen-strong fleet with Northern Rail.

Cortes said ScotRail's owners should have fought to retain the lease on the 12 trains before the deal with Northern Rail. ScotRail has faced capacity problems due to delays with the delivery of a fleet of new Hitachi c385 electric trains, which were set to come into ScotRail service in May.

A spokesman from Scotrail Alliance - a partnership between Abellio and infrastructure owner Network Rail - insisted it was seeking to increase the number of trains available, saying: “The work we are doing now to secure more trains will mean customers will benefit from more capacity than was previously available.”

However, Cortes said the UK's privatised railway system allowed the leasing companies to make profits at the expense of passengers, who had been let down.

"Bad management by Abellio is partly to blame," he said. "But the lease system of trains is one of the most snide and despicable things about the great rail privatisation swindle.

"They are not owned by Network Rail or even the train operating companies but by private venture operating companies who just lease old trains - the very same ones that we use to own in public ownership - to the highest bidder, for rip off rates.

"We must take Scotland's railways into public ownership so that they are run for the Scottish people by the Scottish people, at the service of them rather than speculators.

"This means directly owning the rolling stock."

Cortes called on the Scottish Government to use its powers to nationalise rail in Scotland.

He said: "Of course, this debacle is entirely avoidable if the SNP had the courage of their convictions and booted the private companies out of our industry.

"Until this is done, I'm sorry to say that the crisis of failing trains and let down passengers will continue."

However, the Scottish Government said that Holyrood does not have sufficient powers to renationalise rail. Transport Minister Humza Yousaf has insisted he will deliver on the SNP's 2016 manifesto pledge to ensure a public sector bidder is in place to bid for railways when the contract comes up for renewal.

The Scottish Government added that ScotRail was seeking to lease additional trains to increase space for passengers.

“ScotRail have been working hard to finalise an agreement on the lease of a number of c365s which will help ensure the best available capacity while we await the arrival of the new c385 trains," a spokesperson said.

"In fact, the first of these could potentially arrive in Scotland in the coming days for testing and driver training."

 

[Roast Veg]

What are the chances that the electronic interference that comes off the 365s will be a barrier to their entry, if not totally unknown? Will some of the older electrification suffer where newer kit does not? Could this affect which routes they might be introduced to?

 

[Clansman]

Can confirm the first set is expected imminently. I'd also expect a press release in the not too distant future.

Also confirmed that they will be for use mostly in 8 car formation on the E&G via Falkirk High.

Might as well show the said confirmation, for the sake of full clarity to the discussion. Nothing particularly "exclusive" about it as others have suggested, nor is anything secretive or whatever now that there's already photos and videos showing the first set heading up;

Class 365 Trains

As you know, we have been working flat out to secure electric trains to boost capacity for our customers this summer. I wanted to provide you with an update on this. Over the coming days a class 365 electric train may arrive in Springburn for testing, ahead of a potential entry into service later in the summer. No formal agreement has been reached, and we are working closely with the trade unions on this, but we are confident that these trains can make a big difference to our customers as we prepare for the delivery of the brand-new Hitachi class 385 trains.

The class 365 electric trains would boost capacity on the Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk High route, and would mean more seats for our customers during peak times than there were in December.

The class 365 electric trains would:
> Be based at Eastfield and Millerhill depots;
> Run, in the main, as 8 cars;
> Be maintained at Shields depot;
> Be branded with “ScotRail” logos;
> Have cycle and wheelchair spaces.

We are developing training packages to support any introduction of these trains, and these will be consulted with our people and trade union representatives. Prior to operating the trains for passengers, modifications would be carried out on the trains to ensure compatibility with infrastructure in Scotland.

The extra capacity would also mean we are better placed to provide a great service to our customers during major events this summer, like The Open and the Edinburgh Festivals. The class 365 trains would provide a temporary solution until we have sufficient class 385 trains in service.

We’ve made no secret of the fact that Hitachi is behind schedule with the delivery of the new class 385 electric trains. We are supporting Hitachi as it finds a solution to the windscreen problem, so that we can get these trains into passenger service as soon as possible once testing has been successfully complete and the train regulator (ORR) has given its approval.

 

[gingertom]

What are the chances that the electronic interference that comes off the 365s will be a barrier to their entry, if not totally unknown? Will some of the older electrification suffer where newer kit does not? Could this affect which routes they might be introduced to?

that's the purpose of the test/evaluation. Peterboro & King's Lynn electrification could be considered old in this context and these units worked there without problems so they *should* be ok here.

 

[D365]

It’s signalling and track circuits that are the main issues when it comes to EMC/interference.

 

[edwin_m]

What are the chances that the electronic interference that comes off the 365s will be a barrier to their entry, if not totally unknown? Will some of the older electrification suffer where newer kit does not? Could this affect which routes they might be introduced to?

that's the purpose of the test/evaluation. Peterboro & King's Lynn electrification could be considered old in this context and these units worked there without problems so they *should* be ok here.

It’s signalling and track circuits that are the main issues when it comes to EMC/interference.

Agreed - first generation three-phase drives were very problematic for older types of track circuit in particular. I was a little involved in testing these when new and they were permitted as far north as York, but under restrictions at the time which I think only allowed one four-car unit to be under power anywhere on that section (this may have been relaxed later).

Most of the signalling equipment on Edinburgh-Glasgow will have been renewed as part of electrification, with the possible exception of Haymarket-Waverley which was already electrified but has had quite a lot of work to the signalling in recent years. Hence it is likely that the older equipment that had problems with 365s doesn't exist on this route. This may be why they are talking about introducing them on the E&G rather than the apparently more logical option of running them elsewhere (on routes with older signalling) to free up 380s for the flagship service.

 

[Roast Veg]

Agreed - first generation three-phase drives were very problematic for older types of track circuit in particular. I was a little involved in testing these when new and they were permitted as far north as York, but under restrictions at the time which I think only allowed one four-car unit to be under power anywhere on that section (this may have been relaxed later).

Most of the signalling equipment on Edinburgh-Glasgow will have been renewed as part of electrification, with the possible exception of Haymarket-Waverley which was already electrified but has had quite a lot of work to the signalling in recent years. Hence it is likely that the older equipment that had problems with 365s doesn't exist on this route. This may be why they are talking about introducing them on the E&G rather than the apparently more logical option of running them elsewhere (on routes with older signalling) to free up 380s for the flagship service.

This is pretty much the answer I was expecting, thanks for confirming my suspicions. As a follow up to the full text of the announcements posted above, can anybody speculate on what modifications might be necessary to the 365s themselves?

 

[ScottDarg]

For those interested, a video has been posted to YouTube showing the arrival of the unit at Springburn: