Northern's Problems in the North West

[woodmally]

I dont know its been mentioned here. I have not read all 5 pages of comments so apologies in advance. However according the to a Facebook page its down to work to rule by the staff something over overtime. You never know how accurate Facebook comments are but it would make sense.

 

[Bovverboy]

15 more cancellations to come this morning, including some very busy commuter trains. As I previously said expect this everyday now until the end of August and end of summer leave.

I see that those lines with one or more cancelled trains are now being described as having, not a 'good service', but in fact, at least, 'minor disruption' - perhaps Northern has been reading this thread!
Recent additions to the list have been described as 'severe' disruptions - this includes the 0730 York to Hull, which is running all of eleven minutes late! (The cancellation of two consecutive trains on Colne to Blackpool South is only classed as 'minor', though).

 

[Bungle965]

15 more cancellations to come this morning, including some very busy commuter trains. As I previously said expect this everyday now until the end of August and end of summer leave.

25 now with the afternoon Windermere branch cancellations being added in.
Sam

 

[driver9000]

I dont know its been mentioned here. I have not read all 5 pages of comments so apologies in advance. However according the to a Facebook page its down to work to rule by the staff something over overtime. You never know how accurate Facebook comments are but it would make sense.

It's not a work to rule, the rest day working agreement expired and Northern didn't bother asking for an extension so overtime ceased.

 

[driver9000]

I wonder how successful harmonisation at CrossCountry was? How do XC's staff costs now compare with during Central Trains / Virgin CrossCountry days, and with Northern? And did they harmonise everyone, or just drivers? How succesful at this could Northern realistically be at the moment?

Northern under Serco/NedRail didn't manage to harmonise FNW and ATN conditions so I would be interested to see how Arriva would harmonise 3 sets of conditions now they have former TPE crew. I'm not sure if they have even looked at it.

 

[njamescouk]

this is the sort of thing that happens when management pick a fight with the people doing the actual work.

 

[Red Devil]

As was previously said. There's no work to rule or any industrial action. It's a simple case of the rest day agreement finishing.
The excuse of "essential driver training " is clutching at straws. The fact is there's not enough drivers to cover the work without rest days in.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

NRE now shows the limited service (2tph) between Preston and Blackpool North extended to May 11 (ie across the May Day bank holiday).
Replacement buses continue.

 

[gazzaa2]

Not just Lancashire. My train from Warrington to Liverpool has been cancelled half a dozen times in the last couple of weeks alone and every day this week.

I've never known it this bad. It's chaos at the moment.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Strike day timetables now posted on Northern website for Wednesday 9th May: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

 

[The_Engineer]

Not just Lancashire. My train from Warrington to Liverpool

Sorry - for many of us older members, that was Lancashire!

 

[Matt_pool]

Not just Lancashire. My train from Warrington to Liverpool has been cancelled half a dozen times in the last couple of weeks alone and every day this week.

I've never known it this bad. It's chaos at the moment.

The Liverpool to Warrington/Manchester line is awful for delays and cancellations, and it has been for years. And obviously I mean services operated by Northern, not East Midlands and TPE.

Not forgetting the 2 carriage trains they put on during rush hour that are standing room only, and then the rest of day the trains will be formed of 4 carriages with hardly any passengers!

 

[northernchris]

The Liverpool to Warrington/Manchester line is awful for delays and cancellations, and it has been for years. And obviously I mean services operated by Northern, not East Midlands and TPE.

Some of this will be down to service regulation. Looking at Oxford Road the Lime Street stoppers closely follow the express services so if the EMT/TPE is running a few minutes late the Northern will inevitably be late starting. I've been on a few Northern services lately which have been on schedule only to be held just outside a station to allow 3-4 late trains to pass which then causes a late arrival

 

[td97]

Not just Lancashire. My train from Warrington to Liverpool has been cancelled half a dozen times in the last couple of weeks alone and every day this week.

Good luck for in 3 weeks when you lose the TPE service!

 

[swanhill41]

The local paper the Blackpool Gazette has finally got wind of the problems!....According to the unions,its Northern's fault..Whats new...All I will say again is,wheres the bloody management ?.....None,except some inane chatter on Twitter...Problem is that it is now well into the summer season in Blackpool and in effect there is no train service that can be relied on...This applies to both the North and South stations...Oh and for good measure,the Windermere branch has it appears been closed till further notice..What do I mean by this...Most days no trains...This info is available on a couple of Facebook sites,where a couple of members have access to TOC and other info feeds......There is now no known date ,for withdrawl of bus replacements for services to BPN...That well known phrase sums it up !!

 

[underbank]

Not forgetting the 2 carriage trains they put on during rush hour that are standing room only, and then the rest of day the trains will be formed of 4 carriages with hardly any passengers!

Northern do that on the Cumbria Coast too, but their speciality is the single car sprinter on some diagrams (including the busiest) but 4 cars on others (including the quietest). There are some single car services where literally people can't fit on it and have to really push people in front to get through the doors. And unlike other lines, there isn't the choice of waiting 15/30 minutes for the next train as the next could be 1 or 2 hours later, or maybe none at all if it's the last of the day.

 

[northernchris]

The cancellations seem to be increasing each day, with the Windermere line and Victoria-Wigan/Preston services bearing the brunt of the problems. Are Northern able to implement an emergency timetable to ensure they can cover all services or would the DfT not approve this?

 

[Carlisle]

There's no work to rule or any industrial action. It's a simple case of the rest day agreement finishing.

You’ve forgotten that 99% of British workplaces don’t need a RDW agreement to function normally, it’s down to the individual whether they choose to work the overtime available or not .

 

[Mathew S]

You’ve forgotten that 99% of British workplaces don’t need a RDW agreement to function normally, it’s down to the individual whether they choose to work the overtime available or not .

True. I can ony speak for my own workplaces but I tend to find that most staff are willing to go the extra mile to keep things running smoothly when it's needed. Of course, that does often depend on having good management/staff relationships...

 

[trainophile]

Apparently there has been an incident not long ago - Wigan Wsllgate Southport trains cancelled or delayed, announcement that some thugs got into the cab on an earlier service and attacked the driver.

We’re on the move now, but sounds nasty. I wonder if they were apprehended.

 

[Mathew S]

Apparently there has been an incident not long ago - Wigan Wsllgate Southport trains cancelled or delayed, announcement that some thugs got into the cab on an earlier service and attacked the driver.

We’re on the move now, but sounds nasty. I wonder if they were apprehended.

Jesus, that sounds unpleasant. There were some cancellations - resulting in some frayed tempers and seriously overcrowded trains - first thing this morning; but that's just not on.
Hope the driver's okay.

There is often a BTP presence just over the road at Wigan NW, so hopefully assistance was summoned with some alacrity and the offenders apprehended.

 

[Loop & Link]

True. I can ony speak for my own workplaces but I tend to find that most staff are willing to go the extra mile to keep things running smoothly when it's needed. Of course, that does often depend on having good management/staff relationships...

But they can’t work Rest Days, if there’s no agreement in place to work them in the first place.

This isn’t about drivers refusing to do overtime at all. The fact is Northern have got by on RDW until recently because drivers were available for overtime.

This forced overtime mindset, that drivers should work rest days as it shows they are going the extra mile always crops up and it does my head in!

Example: Driver has a long weekend, 5 days, and as a result books a weekend away, and is N/A for those rest days, as a result, there are a few cancellations on those days, due to jobs being uncovered, should the driver have cancelled their holiday as it would have showed they were willing to go the extra mile to save cancellations?!

I’ll openly admit, I’m a grabber when it comes to rest days, but if I want to make plans, when it does come to my day off, is the mindset now, that I can’t as I should be available 24/7, sat in uniform, just in case there’s a job uncovered?!

 

[whitrope69]

You’ve forgotten that 99% of British workplaces don’t need a RDW agreement to function normally, it’s down to the individual whether they choose to work the overtime available or not .

Unfortunately Carlisle that the rail industry has its own unique way of doing things and is slow to change and hangs on to the past sometimes for good reasons and sometimes myopically . On the other the best way to manage without RDW is to have enough staff that its not needed.

 

[Lytham Local]

Strike day timetables now posted on Northern website for Wednesday 9th May: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

At least the Blackpool South service on strike day is an improvement to what we have had so far today http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...8/05/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=call&order=wtt

 

[Mathew S]

But they can’t work Rest Days, if there’s no agreement in place to work them in the first place.

This isn’t about drivers refusing to do overtime at all. The fact is Northern have got by on RDW until recently because drivers were available for overtime.

This forced overtime mindset, that drivers should work rest days as it shows they are going the extra mile always crops up and it does my head in!

Example: Driver has a long weekend, 5 days, and as a result books a weekend away, and is N/A for those rest days, as a result, there are a few cancellations on those days, due to jobs being uncovered, should the driver have cancelled their holiday as it would have showed they were willing to go the extra mile to save cancellations?!

I’ll openly admit, I’m a grabber when it comes to rest days, but if I want to make plans, when it does come to my day off, is the mindset now, that I can’t as I should be available 24/7, sat in uniform, just in case there’s a job uncovered?!

Of course, nobody should be forced to work a day off, and I certainly didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

To relate it to my experience, I'm a broadcast journalist and work as part of a (very) small team. Sometimes, I cover for colleagues with little or no notice due to problems. Those could be personal problems, or work problems, but because we're a strong team and have good relationships with our management we know that we'll pull together and do 'overtime' when it's needed to keep the show.om the road. Would I cancel a holiday for my job? No chance. Do I give up days off for it? Yes, sometimes.

It's that positive 'doing whatever needs to be done to keep things running' attitude.

That said, there's a minimum number of staff below which it wouldn't work; and it wouldn't work at all of there weren't the positive relationships to make it happen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are both problems at Northern currently.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Shouldn't Northern be in the middle of a major recruitment drive for all the new services being started/planned as per the franchise spec?
That's for drivers, guards and all sorts of customer facing roles.
So won't the problem gradually be solved by recruitment?
And shouldn't that be positive news for all these staff and for the wider industry?
I don't really understand why the first expansion of services for a generation generates so much angst and negativism.
What am I missing?
Same is true for TPE as well.

 

[The_Engineer]

Shouldn't Northern be in the middle of a major recruitment drive for all the new services being started/planned as per the franchise spec?
That's for drivers, guards and all sorts of customer facing roles.
So won't the problem gradually be solved by recruitment?
And shouldn't that be positive news for all these staff and for the wider industry?
I don't really understand why the first expansion of services for a generation generates so much angst and negativism.
What am I missing?

I don't think anyone I being unduly negative in this thread. It pertains to the CURRENT problems with staff shortages leading to cancelled or part-cancelled services at the moment.

Indeed, Northern seem to be on a very big recruitment drive for staff - particularly drivers - as can be seen in other threads on this forum. They will take time to come through the recruitment and training pipeline though. The concern of most posters in this thread is that Northern management do not seem to have any immediate plan to get the service running better - even the adoption of an emergency timetable of reduced service would be preferable to the current daily lottery that commuters face as to whether their train is going to run today or not.......

 

[B&I]

Shouldn't Northern be in the middle of a major recruitment drive for all the new services being started/planned as per the franchise spec?
That's for drivers, guards and all sorts of customer facing roles.
So won't the problem gradually be solved by recruitment?
And shouldn't that be positive news for all these staff and for the wider industry?
I don't really understand why the first expansion of services for a generation generates so much angst and negativism.
What am I missing?
Same is true for TPE as well.

Haven't you answered your own question ? People are feeling negative because the incompetents who run Northern can't employ enough people to meet existing service requirements. This makes it difficult to get excited about new ones

 

[northwichcat]

Shouldn't Northern be in the middle of a major recruitment drive for all the new services being started/planned as per the franchise spec?
That's for drivers, guards and all sorts of customer facing roles.
So won't the problem gradually be solved by recruitment?
And shouldn't that be positive news for all these staff and for the wider industry?
I don't really understand why the first expansion of services for a generation generates so much angst and negativism.
What am I missing?
Same is true for TPE as well.

I suspect the underlying issue is the rest day agreement for drivers has expired and while there's a lot of additional services planned, some depots are set to get more additional work than others. In the case of Lime Street I'm not sure if there's any planned additional work for them until 2019, which might be why services would by Liverpool drivers are amongst those struggling the most.

Northern have been given a difficult hand by Network Rail but they aren't doing themselves any favours. They've dropped some planned improvements while others are still going ahead and I'm not seen anything from Northern trying to explain why they have justified giving some routes their extra services starting in May and others have to wait longer, neither is there an obvious reason for passengers.

Also, in common with Wales, improvements were overdue when the franchise was let - improvements finally happening at the December 2017 timetable didn't exactly set pulses racing and now some of those improvements have to wait until December 2018.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So won't the problem gradually be solved by recruitment?
And shouldn't that be positive news for all these staff and for the wider industry?
I don't really understand why the first expansion of services for a generation generates so much angst and negativism.
What am I missing?

There shouldn't be a problem that requires a resolution. Are you seriously suggesting that because there might be some extra services in the next 6 - 18 months people should just put up with it and shut up?