Gatwick Airport: Rail Replacement Bus disruption (06/05)

[whhistle]

Why? Are you saying people shouldn't use the railway if there is engineering work?

For some people, yes, they shouldn't.
But it's about weighing up what the priority is, not putting words in peoples mouths!

I was watching a talk given by the head of Greater Anglia customer experience / customer service... something like that, who said there was always a choice. Many people choose the railway because it's easier. Yes it has a risk of cancelled services and this and that but overall the service is okay and that's what the over-arching priority is... getting to work on time, most of the time.
But people could catch a bus(es). They could learn to drive, and drive. Perhaps organise a taxi, or a communal bus. But these aren't as easy/cheap as the railway. But the choice is still there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what happened was acceptable in any way.

No it isn't the same at all

Hmm...

Who books a holiday without researching how they're going to get home from the airport?

They do - they will conclude that it's OK as "there is a railway station at the Airport".

That to me suggests that someone may book a holiday assuming the train station will be open as normal / it would be the obvious choice for getting to and from the airport.
That's like me turning up to a city I've never been to assuming the Asda is open for 24 hours, when it may not be. Sorry you don't see the similarities.

if passengers did check in advance all they would find is that a replacement bus service will operate between the airport and Three Bridges, are they really supposed to reschedule their holiday because of that? Obviously they aren't to know that the bus provision would be hopelessly inadequate.

Some people may reschedule their holiday because of that yes. Just like some people would rather change trains twice as much and add an hour to their journey just to avoid changing in London. But I would guess most wouldn't and I don't see why how you are pulling that out of what I wrote.

The train company wasn't to know the buses would be "hopelessly inadequate" either. It's not like they planned it! And I hardly think at the time the controllers would be sitting on their bums twiddling their thumbs... more like frantically calling every bus company they can trying to get any old bus.

 

[whhistle]

Even then, hourly vs a train every 10 minutes or so, not comparable.

But it's still a choice. Albeit not a great one...

Just like later on this year. I could divert myself from where I'm visiting to another area of the country, and then back to the home county, adding an extra two hours or so to my journey just to avoid a rail replacement bus. Or I could just get the bus. I have a choice.

 

[The Planner]

2. Network Rail should not organise engineering work on Bank Holidays unless they absolutely have to have all three days, and should take into account likely coach availability in their planning (i.e. avoid major events)

And like I have said before, the TOCs expect and ask us to put it in bank holidays and it is the only time we can get significant amounts of time on track.

 

[Antman]

For some people, yes, they shouldn't.
But it's about weighing up what the priority is, not putting words in peoples mouths!

I was watching a talk given by the head of Greater Anglia customer experience / customer service... something like that, who said there was always a choice. Many people choose the railway because it's easier. Yes it has a risk of cancelled services and this and that but overall the service is okay and that's what the over-arching priority is... getting to work on time, most of the time.
But people could catch a bus(es). They could learn to drive, and drive. Perhaps organise a taxi, or a communal bus. But these aren't as easy/cheap as the railway. But the choice is still there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what happened was acceptable in any way.



Hmm...

That to me suggests that someone may book a holiday assuming the train station will be open as normal / it would be the obvious choice for getting to and from the airport.
That's like me turning up to a city I've never been to assuming the Asda is open for 24 hours, when it may not be. Sorry you don't see the similarities.


Some people may reschedule their holiday because of that yes. Just like some people would rather change trains twice as much and add an hour to their journey just to avoid changing in London. But I would guess most wouldn't and I don't see why how you are pulling that out of what I wrote.

The train company wasn't to know the buses would be "hopelessly inadequate" either. It's not like they planned it! And I hardly think at the time the controllers would be sitting on their bums twiddling their thumbs... more like frantically calling every bus company they can trying to get any old bus.

Well this isn't the first time they've got bus provision hopelessly wrong on the Brighton line.

I realise that they may have had difficulty sourcing enough buses and drivers which calls into question the wisdom of NR having so much engineering work on the same day. By contrast the Lewisham closure probably didn't cause too many problems but closing the BML on a bank holiday was never likely to go smoothly even if we didn't have hot weather.

 

[Robertj21a]

For some people, yes, they shouldn't.
But it's about weighing up what the priority is, not putting words in peoples mouths!

I was watching a talk given by the head of Greater Anglia customer experience / customer service... something like that, who said there was always a choice. Many people choose the railway because it's easier. Yes it has a risk of cancelled services and this and that but overall the service is okay and that's what the over-arching priority is... getting to work on time, most of the time.
But people could catch a bus(es). They could learn to drive, and drive. Perhaps organise a taxi, or a communal bus. But these aren't as easy/cheap as the railway. But the choice is still there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what happened was acceptable in any way.



Hmm...

That to me suggests that someone may book a holiday assuming the train station will be open as normal / it would be the obvious choice for getting to and from the airport.
That's like me turning up to a city I've never been to assuming the Asda is open for 24 hours, when it may not be. Sorry you don't see the similarities.


Some people may reschedule their holiday because of that yes. Just like some people would rather change trains twice as much and add an hour to their journey just to avoid changing in London. But I would guess most wouldn't and I don't see why how you are pulling that out of what I wrote.

The train company wasn't to know the buses would be "hopelessly inadequate" either. It's not like they planned it! And I hardly think at the time the controllers would be sitting on their bums twiddling their thumbs... more like frantically calling every bus company they can trying to get any old bus.

The train company would have been responsible for authorising the bus arrangements. It seems that they didn't order sufficient capacity, quite apart from any significant contingency for a BH on the BML.

 

[jamesthegill]

I hardly think at the time the controllers would be sitting on their bums twiddling their thumbs... more like frantically calling every bus company they can trying to get any old bus.

Spot on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spot on.

A more sensible option would be to book way too many buses when planning, once confirmed confirm the work, then stand some down (even with loss of deposits) when found not to be needed.

 

[Antman]

A more sensible option would be to book way too many buses when planning, once confirmed confirm the work, then stand some down (even with loss of deposits) when found not to be needed.

And that's what normally happens in my experience, better to have drivers and vehicles sat idle than be caught short.

 

[Antman]

Spot on.

How is it spot on? What are the chances of getting buses and drivers from somewhere on the day? These things have to be arranged in advance.

 

[mmh]

No, I suggested finding alternative ways to get to (or from) the airport.

The alternative way was the rail replacement bus...

 

[mmh]

It's entirely up to them. Personally, I don't unless there is absolutely no alternative. Even in this situation, I would rather have taken a taxi, even if the RRBs had been running to schedule.

Gatwick to Three Bridges is only a couple of miles, so while a bit of an inconvenience it's not unreasonable to expect it to be not much different to getting a regular bus into town, and it would have been if the service had been sufficient

 

[Robertj21a]

A more sensible option would be to book way too many buses when planning, once confirmed confirm the work, then stand some down (even with loss of deposits) when found not to be needed.

That is the usual arrangement. It seems that GoAhead simply failed to arrange enough.

 

[mmh]

Hmm...

That to me suggests that someone may book a holiday assuming the train station will be open as normal / it would be the obvious choice for getting to and from the airport.
That's like me turning up to a city I've never been to assuming the Asda is open for 24 hours, when it may not be. Sorry you don't see the similarities.

It's not the same at all. I can count the number of times I've gone on holiday and had an organised bus transfer to the hotel/resort on one hand, usually if I've gone to a city I've used whatever metro or rail system, or occaisionally bus, serves the airport and deliberately chosen a hotel convenient for a stop on it. I've never checked for engineering works, for most of them I wouldn't know how to. The bus service from the airport in Tenerife (somewhere I like a lot so have returned multiple times) is excellent and the best way to get around, but the website and timetables are near completely unintelligible - I don't expect I'd ever be able to work out how to find if there are roadworks.

Gatwick is my local airport, and departing from it I'll check transport in advance as I need to be there at by a certain time. Returning to it I never have - what's the point? I then don't have an option not to go there.

I don't think that'll be very unusual, or that it's recklessly foolhardy. When the Underground is closed at Heathrow, how many arriving passengers know that it will be in advance? Not many I'd expect.

 

[EM2]

The alternative way was the rail replacement bus...

Yes, if you're happy to rely on the services that might get stuck in traffic, drivers that don't actually know where they're going, buses not actually turning up even vaguely around the time that they're supposed to (all of which I've experienced in the past with RRBs) and even get taken off the road for defects (as happened at Preston).

 

[WelshBluebird]

Anyone who doesn't check again a lot closer to the dates of their flights is a fool.

Which may still not show the correct timetable! (based on NR's current inability to confirm how much of a service can be run - e.g. - GWR's services over this bank holiday were only confirmed a few days beforehand last week, so anyone travelling from say Gatwick to Bath for the bank holiday weekend would have had even more fun!).

 

[Chris M]

Which may still not show the correct timetable! (based on NR's current inability to confirm how much of a service can be run - e.g. - GWR's services over this bank holiday were only confirmed a few days beforehand last week, so anyone travelling from say Gatwick to Bath for the bank holiday weekend would have had even more fun!).

On Tuesday this week I booked a return ticket from London to Reigate for tomorrow (Saturday) - i.e. 4 days in advance. The NR website had a notice warning that the train times could not be confirmed. The link to more information said basically that they were "hopeful" services will be confirmed a week in advance but couldn't guarantee it. I plan to arrive at Victoria about 30-45 minutes before I should need to as I cannot be certain what trains will actually run (if any?). The last time I travelled abroad my travel was finalised on non-refundable tickets (where an amendment would cost almost half as much again as the ticket, if it was even possible) about 4 months in advance.

 

[Robsignals]

What is the source of the 4 hours claim? I find it very difficult to believe delays could get to that level without serious disorder breaking out. Also don't believe GTR would've forgotten what happened at Redhill only a few months ago and not called up every available bus in the area, more likely to be problems loading them or they were getting delayed in traffic. To be fair there's no past experience of closing the 4 track mainline in the summer season to base bus planning on, the point of having 4 tracks is keeping 2 open while working on the other 2. I remember when the Tinsley Green ladder was first installed and am pretty sure it was Sundays only. Caught part of an interview with someone from the industry on the Today programme yesterday where they were saying the queues were transitory and due to spikes in numbers.

 

[Deepgreen]

Using a toilet on a coach only requires standing and walking for five minutes maximum, not the entire journey.

Yes, but standing, if it's a risk at all, is either allowed or it's not, for five minutes or five hours. Incidentally, the journey from Gatwick to Three Bridges shouldn't be much more than five minutes anyway by road. That's if the police don't interfere and needlessly force a much longer journey, of course.

 

[Deepgreen]

Bikes ,heavy luggage and prams are usually quoted in RRB advertising notices from TOCs that are items hat cannot be carried. I have known a coach driver to take a bike when there was plenty of space available underneath, but imagine it's very much driver discretion.

That's OK then, because no-one takes heavy luggage to an airport!

 

[Chrisgr31]

What is the source of the 4 hours claim?

I am wondering about this as well. I don't doubt there was a problem for a while but would be interested to know what the problem was and how long it took to get it resolved.