VTEC moving mk4 carriage labels

[SaveECRewards]

We all know VTEC like wasting time on silly ideas and neglect the boring basics like having the disabled toilets working or ticket offices sufficiently staffed (I've been told Durham ticket office is currently closed due to staffing issues and last week Grantham and Wakefield Westgate had to close early a few times).

The latest idea is to move the coach letters on a mk 4 set so that passengers get used to the position they'll be when the Azuma is launched.

On this set the coach letter will be above the window, with the sign where the coach letter used to be telling you to look above the window. This will approximate the location that it will be on the Azuma (this won't be exact as on the mk 4 it has to be further along due to the different type of door).

I don't see why this is needed. Has anyone who uses GWR got confused with this? Do VTWC passengers get confused as the coach letters are in different places on the Pendolino and Voyager? Did GNER passengers get confused when the White Rose (Regional Eurostar) sets were used?

What do you think? To me it does seem that VTEC comes up with more silly ideas than any other rail operator.

This is what you see by the door where the coach letter usually is.

Pictures from Adam Reid (VTEC Service Delivery Manager EDB) on Twitter

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a bizarre waste of money.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Bit of a backwards step.. for the effort that's gone into putting "look above the coach for the coach letter" they might as well have just put THE coach letter..

 

[edwin_m]

Having the coach letter in the new position does make it more visible when there are crowds of people around the door. However I agree they might as well put it in both places.

Where on the Azuma is the notice giving the seat numbers to board for at each door? I do hope they aren't losing this as it ought to help reduce the chaos caused by lots of people boarding at the wrong end and meeting head-on with the people who boarded wrongly at the other end.

 

[Ianno87]

Admittedly, the higher position is more visible from a distance (e.g. if you're behind a crowd of passengers on a platform), and more visible as the train runs in so you can move to the correct position.

Down side is you'll get people about to step on the train suddently stopping and stepping back to verify the coach letter, blocking everybody else in the provess; so don't know why it can't be duplicated in the traditional position (just leave the old sticker where it was!)

 

[SaveECRewards]

Admittedly, the higher position is more visible from a distance (e.g. if you're behind a crowd of passengers on a platform), and more visible as the train runs in so you can move to the correct position.

Down side is you'll get people about to step on the train suddently stopping and stepping back to verify the coach letter, blocking everybody else in the provess; so don't know why it can't be duplicated in the traditional position (just leave the old sticker where it was!)

After looking at the pic for a while I did see the advantages of having it higher up, but apparently the sole reason for this is for people to 'get used' to the Azuma so that's why it was removed from its traditional position.

Then again, perhaps there's a reason the letter is by the door, if a carriage swap is made then it's probably easier to stick a temporary coach letter on the sign by the door, for the new sign you'll either have to be tall or need a ladder.

 

[LLivery]

"See label above window" What a stupid idea, why not just have it in both places?

 

[DarloRich]

I am sure there is some behavioral science behind this change. I am not sure that overrides the pointlessness of moving the sticker!

 

[robbeech]

As for seat numbers surely on the large higher sign they could incorporate a similarly large ‘seat 1’ and an arrow pointing to the seat one door which would help in identifying the correct coach and the correct door. No need for 1-37 and 38-73 to pick random numbers.

 

[najaB]

What do you think? To me it does seem that VTEC comes up with more silly ideas than any other rail operator.

There will be a period where both types of trains are in service at the same time. Having the information in a consistent location makes sense.

 

[Ianno87]

After looking at the pic for a while I did see the advantages of having it higher up, but apparently the sole reason for this is for people to 'get used' to the Azuma so that's why it was removed from its traditional position.

Then again, perhaps there's a reason the letter is by the door, if a carriage swap is made then it's probably easier to stick a temporary coach letter on the sign by the door, for the new sign you'll either have to be tall or need a ladder.

I would presume that Azumas will be similar to Pendolinos; i.e. you can't just 'swap' carriages like you can with Mark IVs as that means reprogramming the various on-train computer's etc. So being more fixed with the carriage label won't be an issue.

 

[skyhigh]

I would presume that Azumas will be similar to Pendolinos; i.e. you can't just 'swap' carriages like you can with Mark IVs as that means reprogramming the various on-train computer's etc. So being more fixed with the carriage label won't be an issue.

Having looked at some photos, it's a display up there on an IEP - which would make sense as if you've got a 2x5 car 800, you wouldn't want two coach As (using a random letter), so you need to be able to change coach letters.

The screen is a bit out of the way, so I don't think it's a terrible idea to get passengers used to the idea of the location of the information.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

More importantly, why does the letter need to be in that place on the Azumas 800s? Is this another sign of the "horse designed by a committee" situation I wonder?

 

[najaB]

More importantly, why does the letter need to be in that place on the Azumas 800s? Is this another sign of the "horse designed by a committee" situation I wonder?

It has to go *somewhere* so why not there?

 

[SaveECRewards]

I would presume that Azumas will be similar to Pendolinos; i.e. you can't just 'swap' carriages like you can with Mark IVs as that means reprogramming the various on-train computer's etc. So being more fixed with the carriage label won't be an issue.

Yes, but these are the mk 4s, the Azumas will have electronic displays. This is all about getting the location in a similar position.

There will be a period where both types of trains are in service at the same time. Having the information in a consistent location makes sense.

Currently only one set has this.

We're currently trialling Azuma’s exterior labels on one of our old trains.

Because Azuma features electronic screens which will advertise the coach number at the top of each door, customers might need some guidance on where the screens will be. The old style labels have been removed and set BN05 now features vinyl labels replicating Azuma’s screens.

It’s not an exact like for like match. On BN05 the vinyl stickers are positioned away from the doors so that they’re still visible when doors are open. Azuma’s doors open within the body of the train so the screens will be closer to the doorway.

BN05 enters service today so keep an eye out for it on our route.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It has to go *somewhere* so why not there?

Because the convention is for it to be by the doors. If they stuck with that, they wouldn't need to "re-train" the travelling public with these ridiculous stickers. There's no good reason to move it. It also looks untidy, which given the uproar about GNER having to paint their doors red I'm surprised there isn't a virtual riot on here!

 

[robbeech]

I think we’ve established there are advantages to the new position too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think we’ve established there are advantages to the new position too.

Have "we"? There's been suggestions about why which make some sense, but there are disadvantages too (the "stepping back before boarding" thing). So I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering why this is a priority.

 

[robbeech]

The word ‘too’ sort of implied that there were advantages to the old position and the new position.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The word ‘too’ sort of implied that there were advantages to the old position and the new position.

I agree... but again, my main question is "why now?"
The word "too" wasn't the issue, it was the phrase "we've established": which "we" and on what basis?

In the grand scheme of things it's a small detail, but presumably VTEC are doing the change now so that the inconvenience of change is associated with the old trains rather than the new. The new trains which they didn't choose, didn't order, and don't own (not they'll tell you unless they have to)... though if feedback is negative once the fleet is rolled-out, expect the DfT-driven procurement process* to be thrown under the bus pretty sharpish!

*=which I agree was pretty flawed in multiple ways.

 

[mmh]

With any luck by the time the "Azumas" are introduced VTEC will no longer be the operator and we can forget the word was ever thought of.

 

[robbeech]

With any luck by the time the "Azumas" are introduced VTEC will no longer be the operator and we can forget the word was ever thought of.

This is a valid point.

As for ‘we’ have established, a number of people here have pointed out the advantages.

I understand this as a preparation. When they are introduced there will be some significant changes, people who travel frequently will need to get used to where seat F33 is, where they can put their luggage and bike, and one assumes there is going to be some changes to where they stop on the platform so platform boards will need updating or ignoring. To eliminate or train in advance the people to do this will go some way to minimising confusion and minimising additional dwell times.

 

[edwin_m]

As for seat numbers surely on the large higher sign they could incorporate a similarly large ‘seat 1’ and an arrow pointing to the seat one door which would help in identifying the correct coach and the correct door. No need for 1-37 and 38-73 to pick random numbers.

They are not random numbers, they indicate the position of the mid-point of the coach (at least I presume so, I've never actually measured it). If you had a booking for seat 35 and you only had information on which end seat 1 was, then it would be impossible to work out which door to use unless you knew how many seats were in that coach or had time to count them. Probably many people don't bother reading these, but they have got to be worthwhile even if they only slightly reduce the scrum when two groups with large cases have each boarded by the wrong door and meet in the middle. If only EMT put this information on their 158s!

 

[robbeech]

Thanks. I’m fully aware of what the numbers mean. I was simply picking ‘random numbers’ to use as an example.

 

[tbtc]

There will be a period where both types of trains are in service at the same time. Having the information in a consistent location makes sense.

Agreed - and I can see why you'd put that kind of information above the windows to make it easier to see from a distance (rather than waiting for people to fight their way through the scrum towards the door before they realise that they are trying to board the wrong coach).

Unless someone can point out that the budget for putting a handful of new bits of vinyl at the top of each carriage came from the budget for keeping Grantham ticket office open (?) then this seems like a fairly cheap way of taking some of the stress out of boarding trains - I can appreciate some passengers getting anxious whilst standing on the platforms - watching as a train a couple of hundred metres long rolls into the platform whilst trying to figure out where *their* seat will be - not everyone is the kind of seasoned traveller you get on a Forum like this - this looks like a relatively minor improvement that you can make to improve the passenger experience.

ECML passengers have had the same trains for thirty years now so anything to smoothe the change to 800/801s (when things will be in different places, passengers on these trains that VTEC didn't design but will have to run) is surely a good thing?

Whether the same was done in the days of the GNER 373s is neither here nor there - VTEC are taking a step in the right direction here - the kind of little detail that could save a few seconds of dwell time as passengers know from a distance which carriage to walk towards - but, of course, because its VTEC, people on here will add it to their lists of things to moan about - almost like some people on here have agendas...

 

[Fuzzytop]

platform boards will need updating or ignoring

This. As soon as Azuma starts coming on stream, the current platform boards will not be useful. They will probably get removed sooner rather than later.

Especially if the East Coast operator retains some of the older fleet - which perhaps is not as likely as it once was - trialling a consistent position for carriage labelling seems very sensible to me.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

More importantly, why does the letter need to be in that place on the Azumas 800s? Is this another sign of the "horse designed by a committee" situation I wonder?

the fact that there will be services using 2*5 car units so lettering will be conditional ... and presumably the coach letter will be on the vehicle's external PIS screen

 

[mmh]

More importantly, why does the letter need to be in that place on the Azumas 800s? Is this another sign of the "horse designed by a committee" situation I wonder?

I think so. 800s have a big blank bit of body shell next to the doors, being pocket doors, where you'd expect an information display to go, not at cantrail height.

 

[najaB]

I think so. 800s have a big blank bit of body shell next to the doors, being pocket doors, where you'd expect an information display to go, not at cantrail height.

The issue being, naturally, that the space where the gubbins of the display would go is also needed *for the door*.

 

[mmh]

The issue being, naturally, that the space where the gubbins of the display would go is also needed *for the door*.

They're LED display panels, not cathode ray tubes.