Bought ticket with trainline app, was unable to collect at station, now facing threat of prosecution

[yszctqta]

Hi everyone,

I read Unable to collect prepaid ticket as machine offline, shall I pay or go to court? with great interest, because it's very similar to what happened to me on Sunday afternoon.

After arriving at Brighton station a little after 5 pm, I used the trainline app to buy a Super Off-Peak Single ticket for Brighton to London St Pancras International for travel on that day. I intended to catch the 17:14 from Brighton.

The transaction went through successfully, but seeing as it was not a mobile ticket, I immediately tried to collect my ticket from a ticket machine at Brighton station. I inserted my payment card, then entered the ticket collection reference. The ticket machine did not print my ticket; instead it showed an error that suggested I try a different payment card. The trainline app advised that if I paid using Apple Pay – which I did – then I can use any card to collect. In total, I tried 2-3 different cards with my ticket collection reference, and received the same error. Thinking that this ticket machine was not working, I went to another ticket machine and tried to collect my ticket again. I received the same error, again trying with multiple cards.

Mindful that it was now just 1-2 minutes before the 17:14 departed, I went to the ticket gates and showed my ticket booking confirmation email to the staff member there, and explained that despite my best efforts, I was unable to print my ticket, and that I needed to catch that train. He let me through the gate.

Upon arrival at London St Pancras International station, I went to the ticket gates and recounted what happened to the staff member there. I showed him my ticket booking confirmation email, and explained that the ticket machines in Brighton did not work for me. He asked if I had authorisation from Brighton to prove this – which I did not. He did not accept my explanation.

Instead, we went round in circles. He said that I travelled without a valid ticket. I said that I'd paid for a ticket, but I wasn't able to collect it. He said I didn't pay for a ticket. I said I did. He said I didn't – to be honest, I was a bit speechless; what can you answer to that? I pointed out that there was a ticket machine right outside the gates there, and he could come and collect the ticket with me. He said I could do that, but it wouldn't matter because I didn't have the ticket on me right now at this moment. He said that the penalty fare for travelling without a ticket was £50. I didn't want to pay, so in the end he took down my details to report me to the prosecution team.

Does anyone have any advice for what do now?

Thanks!

 

[MikeWh]

Did you actually collect the ticket once you'd given him your details?

 

[yszctqta]

Yes, after I was let through the gate, the first thing I did was to collect the ticket.

 

[robbeech]

To start with it’s important to note that whilst it was your intention to purchase a ticket, you didn’t have s valid ticket when you travelled. You shouldn’t have to provide written confirmation of authority to travel though it can be argued you only had authority to pass the gateline unless the member of staff specifically told you you could board the train.
It’s known and published that sites such as Trainline can take up to 2 hours to process tickets so they are ready for collection. Most TOC websites deal with this fairly instantly.
Reasonable member of staff would have checked your confirmation and importantly the time you purchased it, observed you collect the ticket from the nearby machine and perhaps marked the outward portion as used for completeness. Unfortunately a minority of staff are less than reasonable.

 

[jon0844]

In this case, isn't it advertised as 15 minutes to collect a ticket? It may be possible to collect far quicker, but if it says 15 minutes then you didn't wait long enough. That may count against you.

However, if you were let through the gates then it should be possible for someone at St Pancras to call Brighton and ask, or take your word for it (the easier solution if you pass the attitude test, I'd say). If you'd printed the ticket and immediately handed it over, it would seem somewhat harsh to take any further action.

Both stations are gated, so the ability to defraud are somewhat limited.

Perhaps staff are under pressure to issue penalty fares, or it was agency staff that may not even know the numbers for other stations and felt it easier to pull out the PF pad. Once refused, they then opted for the prosecution route (but I am not sure if agency staff can do these?).

St Pancras often have agency staff, often noticeable by the yellow hi-viz over orange.

 

[Starmill]

Definitely keep that ticket...

A Brighton to London St Pancras Penalty Fare is £48.60 too, not £50.

If you were given permission to travel by a member of station staff, even if it was just verbal, that's adequate and that's the end of the matter.

 

[MikeWh]

Keep the ticket. Also write down clearly everything that happened. Pretty much as you've typed here, but add anything else that you can remember, especially about the conversation at the Brighton gateline.

You may have to wait a while for any letter to arrive. Several weeks is common, months is not unheard of. The letter will ask for your side of the story which is where you recount your notes about the day. Send it with a copy of the ticket and suggest that that should be the end of the matter. You can also come back here for further advice when you get the letter.

For future reference, trainline bookings are not normally available immediately. It might be anything up to 2 hours later. Other sites usually are available within a minute or so. It's all to do with the interface between the booking site and the central reservation system.

 

[yszctqta]

There was no mention of a possible 15 minute delay during the payment process in the trainline app. After purchasing the ticket, there's a little info icon next to the ticket collection reference, which goes to another screen that also did not mention a possible 15 minute delay – I uploaded a screenshot.

The staff member that I talked to in Brighton specifically asked me where I was going, and I said London St Pancras International. He let me through and told me which gate to go to. Given that the train was about to depart, I ran for the train without thinking to ask for written confirmation.

 

[yszctqta]

At London St Pancras, when I said that Brighton let me through, I was told that 1) he didn't care if Brighton let me through and 2) he didn't know Brighton and 3) something about it being a completely different train company.

 

[MikeWh]

That sounds like pretty good authority to travel there.

I've never used the trainline app so it's possible that they've fixed whatever problems they had with the website. I'd be inclined to replicate the booking process and take screenshots of every stage to add to your evidence.

 

[MikeWh]

At London St Pancras, when I said that Brighton let me through, I was told that 1) he didn't care if Brighton let me through and 2) he didn't know Brighton and 3) something about it being a completely different train company.

That's just madness. Try not to worry too much at this stage. (1) he should care. (2) irrelevant. (3) Both Brighton and the Thameslink platforms at St Pancras are operated by divisions of Govia Thameslink Railway, so that is nonsense.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

At London St Pancras, when I said that Brighton let me through, I was told that 1) he didn't care if Brighton let me through and 2) he didn't know Brighton and 3) something about it being a completely different train company.

He can not care as much as he wants, but ultimately you received authority to travel without carrying a ticket from the gateline staff at Brighton. It might be worthwhile going back there and trying to find the person who it was who might have let you through - perhaps asking various members of staff who would have been present at the gateline at the time you were there. That way you can find your 'witness'.

The good news in all this is that you should not be convicted for any Regulation of Railways Act offence - which would be more serious and carry a criminal record. The bad news is that you may be convicted for a Railway Byelaws offence, of boarding without a ticket. There is a statutory defence to this - which includes if there were no ticketing issuing facilities at your starting station, or if you received authorisation from an authorised member of staff. However, whilst both of these would entirely exonerate you, it would be up to you to prove these defences - it is only up to the train company to prove that you boarded without a ticket and/or could not show a ticket upon demand. Both of these will hardly be under question.

So, if you can provide sufficient evidence of either of the defences then you ought to be found not guilty. However, that may be easier said than done and - not to mention the likely significant cost of solicitors - it may simply be easier and less of a risk to settle with them out of Court. It is entirely perverse but sadly it is the way the anti-passenger system works.

 

[pdq]

Does the simple action of gateline staff opening the gate imply authority to travel, or is that simply incidental here?

 

[najaB]

Does anyone have any advice for what do now?

First things first, the advice given by @MikeWh to write everything down is sound.

I don't see that you've got a case to answer since you were given permission to pass the gateline. (We've argued quite heatedly in the past if gateline staff can legitimately give that permission but it doesn't change the fact that you were given permission.) True, you don't have anything in writing, but you were able to board at a barriered station so it would be up to the TOC to prove that you jumped the gate.

A couple of random thoughts for consideration. I've always known the Trainline to specify that you leave up to two hours to collect tickets the app doesn't appear have the same restriction. That screenshot you provided is very important so keep it safe in case the app design changes. You were at the station 15 minutes before the train departed, why buy online instead of directly from the machine? Are mTickets available for the journey you were making?

 

[Silverdale]

If the OP had authority to travel, he shouldn't face prosecution.

The difficulty he has is the lack of any evidence whatsoever that he had such authority to travel. Was the staff member at Brighton who let him through the gate even authorized to give such authority to travel?

I suspect the only realistic option for the OP is to seek to settle the dispute out of court.

But surely there is a wider question here about what constitutes authority to travel without a ticket and who can give such authority? Without anything documented or traceable, it is always going to be the customer who finds themselves in a difficulty of this kind if they board a train without a valid ticket on the verbal say so of a member of staff.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The difficulty he has is the lack of any evidence whatsoever that he had such authority to travel. Was the staff member at Brighton who let him through the gate even authorized to give such authority to travel?

You can rely on the permission of a reasonable railway employee (i.e. not the cleaner). If that employee shouldn't have done something, that's an internal disciplinary matter.

As for "no evidence", Brighton is barriered. Unless the OP vaulted the gate, he must have been let through.

Keep the booking confirmation to show when you paid. Keep the ticket as it shows where/when it was printed.

I wouldn't be offering a single penny to GoVia. But do expect a fight.

 

[robbeech]

But surely there is a wider question here about what constitutes authority to travel without a ticket and who can give such authority? Without anything documented or traceable, it is always going to be the customer who finds themselves in a difficulty of this kind if they board a train without a valid ticket on the verbal say so of a member of staff.

Of course, we run as guilty until proven innocent on the railway in some cases. It’s wrong, nobody with power is prepared to do anything about it though.
We must remember it is difficult for railway staff too. On a typical day for every one case like this there will be tens or hundreds of fare evasions where the passengers intends to get away with not paying. Some of those will use the same excuses so you can hopefully understand why sonetimes people end up in this position.
Unfortunately sometimes the TOCs are not prepared to accept any excuses even if the failing is on their part so you can end up going around in circles.

I’d like to look into the Trainline issue a little further. Slightly off topic but there a several fairly serious issues with the trainline and their apps at the moment that have the potential to see people being prosecuted and it’s about time they sorted this out and took some responsibility. Could you tell me which version of the app you are using. There appear to be more issues on the iOS version of the app than the android version though sone issues are common to all as they’re an issue on the database rather than app specific.
I’d like to propose that IF the Trainline app does not specify that tickets will not be available for collection until up to a given time after purchase then they are at least partially responsible for this situation arising.

The advice by others is excellent. Keep the tickets. Take photos now as then you have copies you can email to people. Keep a record of when you purchased it. It’s crucial everyone knows the ticket was purchased a sensible amount of time before the train departed your origin. And do ask for more advice here if you need it.

 

[yszctqta]

So I went through the ticket purchasing flow on the trainline app again this morning to make sure I didn’t miss anything; and I took screenshots of every screen.

I tried to make the conditions the same as when I booked on Sunday i.e., 5-6 minutes before departure time.

To confirm, at no point during the purchase are there any warnings that you might have a delay before you can pick up the ticket. The confirmation email also makes no mention that it might take time before the ticket is available to be picked up.

More to the point, when I went back to the search results screen a few minutes later, you can see that it says “Not available to buy” for a train departing in 2 minutes. So coupled with the lack of warnings, why show tickets for sale 5-6 minutes before departure if it’s not possible to actually pick them up?

 

[Gareth Marston]

If nothing else it will make the Op think twice about buying anything off Trainline

 

[Silverdale]

Of course, we run as guilty until proven innocent on the railway in some cases. It’s wrong, nobody with power is prepared to do anything about it though.

The OP is innocent until proven guilty, but by his own admission he boarded the train without a ticket so unless he can provide the appropriate authority to travel in lieu of a valid ticket, he has broken the relevant Bylaw. How can you construe that as being guilty until proven innocent? The law is clear enough. It is the customer/passenger's responsibility to be in possession of a valid ticket or appropriate authority to travel when boarding the train.

The grey area is what, precisely, constitutues an appropriate authority to travel and who has the authority to issue it.

The OP, in good faith, imagined that having purchased, but not collected, a ticket for the journey and by being let through the gate/barrier at Brighton he was being given authority to travel to St Pancras. But is that actually the case? Can a staff member operating a ticket barrier issue nod-and-wink tickets as they see fit?

Even if it is the case that barrier staff can issue such authority, unless it is documented and traceable, how can a customer show they have received it when asked to produce a ticket or authority to travel as the law requires?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why I think authority to travel should be given only in writing ever. Staff permitted to give it could be issued with pads for that purpose. For other staff it would and should be a formal disciplinary offence to do or say anything that implied travel was allowed. For example, unauthorised staff should not say "ask the guard, it'll probably be OK", they should say "I am not able to authorise that, sorry. The guard may do so, he's over there, but do not board the train until they have issued you an authority ticket because if you do you may end up in Court".

In the meantime, two things...

1. Absent the railway having an effective method of proof, it should give the benefit of the doubt. If the railway wishes to be stricter, it needs to introduce stricter systems. This is the same as the other TOD thread in this regard, really.

2. If you're offered a PF due to an irregularity, ALWAYS accept it however unfair it may seem. Refusing is almost certain to result in a higher settlement or Court. Pay, on the spot, the Anytime Single fare for the journey (the full PF can be paid later, but don't miss the deadline) and you can appeal it. This is the opposite way round to parking charges where payment denotes acceptance of the offence and makes no appeal possible, and I don't think that is made clear enough to people receiving PFs.

And...don't use the Trainline or any Trainline derived TOC site to purchase a walk-up ticket, certainly not if you're in a hurry! Just buy at the TVM. (Actually, don't use the Trainline at all due to the fees...)

 

[Realfish]

I know that members have from time to time discussed the use of CCTV in these circumstances. It's moot in that there is no audio but, surely, the OP could rely on it (if it is available) to show them seeking the assistance of gateline staff and being allowed access to the platform (Platform 5 in this instance) - i.e being given authority to travel. There may also be footage of them attempting to access their tickets from the TVMs on the station. Presumably, given that this only happened on Sunday, it should still be available for retention. I would have though this 'evidence' should be more than enough to put 'reasonable doubt' in the mind of anyone judging this...or more importantly pursuing a case against the OP.

Doubtless the OP is extremely worried. I would rather it would be GTR and their 'employee' at St Pancras that carried that burden.

 

[Silverdale]

I would like to think that where one part of the railway industry has given a customer bad advice, another part would understand, and give the customer the benefit of the doubt should a dispute arise. Sadly, I can't see elements of the railway industry that effectively compete with each other (either directly, in their train operating businesses, or when bidding for franchises) playing so nicely with each other that one will readily accept a cost arising from a fault by another.

Otherwise I would agree entirely with Bletchleyite. Unless authority to travel is given in writing, by a named individual, don't assume you have it.

 

[robbeech]

That isn’t exactly what he said. He said (which I certainly agree with) that there likely SHOULD be a system in place for this but currently is not.
This person has been given authority to travel by a member of railway staff. It is NOT for the passenger to determine who is and isn’t authorised. If staff who are not authorised are giving authorisation this is an internal problem that should be dealt with by the TOC without affecting the passenger. I appreciate that it is not a good system, I appreciate it is not possible to easily distinguish who has been given authority and who is lying. If the Railway has a problem with this it is in their interest to improve the system to minimise this.

 

[Silverdale]

This person has been given authority to travel by a member of railway staff. It is NOT for the passenger to determine who is and isn’t authorised. If staff who are not authorised are giving authorisation this is an internal problem that should be dealt with by the TOC without affecting the passenger. I appreciate that it is not a good system, I appreciate it is not possible to easily distinguish who has been given authority and who is lying. If the Railway has a problem with this it is in their interest to improve the system to minimise this.

The OP wasn't given authority to travel. He/she was allowed through the gate to board the train to St Pancras. The NRCOC is unspecific about what an "appropriate authority to travel" consists of or who can issue it, but it does state that it is something which the customer is able to provide when required in lieu of a valid ticket. Unless it's in writing, or otherwise documented and traceable so that the customer can provide it, it can't fulfill the requirements of the NRCOC. Consequently it's difficult to see how the OP did not break the Bylaw.

Members of TOC staff who allow or encourage people to board trains without a ticket or authority to travel are undoubtedly helping to cause these problems, but the Bylaw is clear enough that the onus is on the person boarding the train to be able to produce the ticket/authority to travel when required.

I really wish there was a thing called "the Railway".

 

[Starmill]

How can you construe that as being guilty until proven innocent?

Because the Byelaw is immoral, and creates the effect of that.

Why does the train company have this power? The train company is not acting in the interests of justice - they merely act in their own interests.

 

[Starmill]

The OP wasn't given authority to travel. He/she was allowed through the gate to board the train to St Pancras.

That sounds entirely sufficient to me, especially given they were directed towards their train. As for the part about it needing to be written down, you've just made that up

 

[Silverdale]

There are many other offences of strict liability for which you could claim the same. Some of them will land you in prison if convicted.

There is a decent case to make that because of technical developments there are now many more good reasons why an honest customer should be able to board a train without a valid ticket in their hand. The Bylaws and NRCOC should probably be updated to reflect these developments.

Until that happens, anyone intending to travel by train needs to know what the requirements are and the likely consequences of travelling without a ticket, however unfair or unjust it appears to be.

 

[robbeech]

The NRCOC is unspecific about what an "appropriate authority to travel" consists of or who can issue it, but it does state that it is something which the customer is able to provide when required in lieu of a valid ticket.

So you agree that it is unspecified and unclear. Therefore how can such nonsense be enforced in this way?
There are other examples of rules that are no written down that people try to enforce and they too have no grounding.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That isn’t exactly what he said. He said (which I certainly agree with) that there likely SHOULD be a system in place for this but currently is not.

Indeed. I believe GWR do have such a system (I'm sure I've seen one posted on here) but it isn't used universally, I've not seen any such thing by any other TOC.