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Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

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notlob.divad

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IMO a franchisee should lose ALL their franchises if they walk away from one. It'd concentrate a few minds. Still, the Tories won't do that, not when they can privatise profit and nationalise loss.
That's an interesting concept, I am not sure of the legalities of doing that. These franchisee are all pigeon-holed separate entities to avoid precisely that. Would you also go so far as to strip them of other forms of Public service provision, Buses etc?

I am not against the idea, and I would certainly put a stay on giving them new contracts, but not sure how that could be extended to existing contracts.
 
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Chrism20

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That's an interesting concept, I am not sure of the legalities of doing that. These franchisee are all pigeon-holed separate entities to avoid precisely that. Would you also go so far as to strip them of other forms of Public service provision, Buses etc?

I am not against the idea, and I would certainly put a stay on giving them new contracts, but not sure how that could be extended to existing contracts.

Personally I’d go down the route of revoking the “Passport” of the bidder if the franchise fails.

I don’t think you would be able to do much about existing franchises (or I think it would be difficult to do anything about them), however I think if the franchise fails there should be a period of time where they cannot compete for another.
 

ainsworth74

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That's an interesting concept, I am not sure of the legalities of doing that. These franchisee are all pigeon-holed separate entities to avoid precisely that. Would you also go so far as to strip them of other forms of Public service provision, Buses etc?

I am not against the idea, and I would certainly put a stay on giving them new contracts, but not sure how that could be extended to existing contracts.

Personally I’d go down the route of revoking the “Passport” of the bidder if the franchise fails.

I don’t think you would be able to do much about existing franchises (or I think it would be difficult to do anything about them), however I think if the franchise fails there should be a period of time where they cannot compete for another.

I must admit I'm not convinced by stripping existing franchises from the likes of Stagecoach or National Express (assuming that those other franchises aren't in some sort of breach) but it would seem sensible to me at the very least to revoke the "Passport" of any group that does default on a franchise and seriously consider a banning (at least for a little while) from future franchise competitions.

To me that would seem a much more logical sanction if a franchisee fails than stripping them of all their other franchises.
 

hwl

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Personally I’d go down the route of revoking the “Passport” of the bidder if the franchise fails.

I don’t think you would be able to do much about existing franchises (or I think it would be difficult to do anything about them), however I think if the franchise fails there should be a period of time where they cannot compete for another.

And the government would get taken to court in the VTEC case and lose as some of the blame lies with DfT (growth figure starting from date during bidding not the start of the franchise and passenger numbers being lower on day 1 of the franchise so no chance of ever catching up and DfT not authorising what was originally CP6 infrastructure works at all or even brought forwards which are needed to run the extra services (excluding delayed/deferred CP5 work issues)
 

Chrism20

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And the government would get taken to court in the VTEC case and lose as some of the blame lies with DfT (growth figure starting from date during bidding not the start of the franchise and passenger numbers being lower on day 1 of the franchise so no chance of ever catching up and DfT not authorising what was originally CP6 infrastructure works at all or even brought forwards which are needed to run the extra services (excluding delayed/deferred CP5 work issues)

I understand what you are saying, however I think given that Stagecoach have openly admited that they got the figures wrong they would struggle to win the case against the government.

I also think that whilst the government are as culpable for the failure as Virgin & Stagecoach are, going from what we have seen in the past from Virgin and Stagecoach when it comes to their rail contracts that if they were in the right they would have faced the government off on it and would have their day in court.

Just my thoughts on it but there is more to this than either side are telling us.
 

FQTV

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And the government would get taken to court in the VTEC case and lose as some of the blame lies with DfT (growth figure starting from date during bidding not the start of the franchise and passenger numbers being lower on day 1 of the franchise so no chance of ever catching up and DfT not authorising what was originally CP6 infrastructure works at all or even brought forwards which are needed to run the extra services (excluding delayed/deferred CP5 work issues)

The submissions to the forthcoming Transport Select Committee include one from Network Rail detailing exactly what has and hasn't happened, and at least to my reading, they confirm once again that no part of the revenue issues that the franchise has faced from handover day are related to infrastructure commitments not having been met to date.

There was a relevant point regarding the Virgin Trains East Coast award made during the recent Public Accounts Committee hearing, however, that there's a significant 'blind' trading period between the franchise award date and handover day, which means that months of operating performance and new trends are completely unknown to the new operator.

It seems to be one of the issues that those committed to the franchise model hold up as evidence that the blame lies with the DfT. It's potentially of limited relevance, however, if the alternative is returning passenger operations to, say, a government-owned entity.
 

3141

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Adonis is your typical politician who acts like they care about your cause but in reality they couldn't give a f***. He is spinning an agenda. For his own gain. Who was daft enough to give him a knighthood?

Gordon Brown recommended that he be given a peerage, so as to be able to get him into Parliament and appoint him to a government post.

Well yes, that's exactly how it should work.

IMO a franchisee should lose ALL their franchises if they walk away from one. It'd concentrate a few minds. Still, the Tories won't do that, not when they can privatise profit and nationalise loss.
Labour didn't do it either when NXEC finished. And the reason is that there are legal factors which should not be overridden by the emotions of some members of this forum. But the idea of withdrawing the passport to bid for future franchises is an interesting one. On the other hand, if Stagecoach and Virgin were unable to bid, would the people who were glad to see the back of them complain that too many foreign companies were getting hold of British rail franchises?
 

43096

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Why does he get more and more annoying and why does it get more and more obvious that he's trying to spin an agenda. Also didn't he refuse to accept a lot of money from Nat Ex and government instead got ~15 million less from them?
You’ll be glad to know that Roger Ford made some blunt comments about Adonis on the Today programme this morning.
 

FQTV

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Gordon Brown recommended that he be given a peerage, so as to be able to get him into Parliament and appoint him to a government post.


Labour didn't do it either when NXEC finished. And the reason is that there are legal factors which should not be overridden by the emotions of some members of this forum. But the idea of withdrawing the passport to bid for future franchises is an interesting one. On the other hand, if Stagecoach and Virgin were unable to bid, would the people who were glad to see the back of them complain that too many foreign companies were getting hold of British rail franchises?

Correct. All franchises are held in what are known as 'Special Purpose Vehicles,' specifically to limit the liability of the parent company (or companies if it's a joint venture) in the event of something going wrong.

That makes it legally almost impossible to cross-penalise.

As far as I'm aware, the full details of the National Express East Coast deal are still not public; Robert Peston (then) of the BBC is quoted as having been told that an offer was made by National Express of around £100m to terminate the franchise, but that this was turned down in favour of the £72m bond default. The suggestion from the then Minister for Transport was that anything other than invoking the default terms of the original franchise agreement would set a precedent for other franchises to renegotiate their terms, on the basis that that's effectively what National Express were trying to do.

Without knowing what the terms relating to the reported additional £28m were, and I don't think that they're in the public domain, it's difficult to assess whether decisions taken were the right ones, or even just the right ones at the time.

I suspect that what any additional payment would have done is shifted the balance of control back to National Express, and the DfT may have thought that there was a greater than £28m risk in that happening and potentially finding the business in an even worse state if Directly Operated Railways was considered an inevitable ultimate outcome.

Again though, this is a detail of the franchise model, and has significant commonalities with issues that have already arisen with the likes of Carillion and other private contractors delivering closely-held government contracts.

Supposedly, it's the bigger picture that the Public Accounts Committee and Transport Select Committee are considering, using specific evidence to come to their conclusions. In particular, the latter won't be reporting on whether the Virgin Trains East Coast website is good or bad, but they'll be looking at it to assess whether it's inevitable that the franchise model results or is more than likely to result in outputs driven purely by silo'd cost control or ill-conceived ideas borne of limited long term understanding of the business in question.

Not unnaturally, supporters of the franchise model will likely quickly point to poor decision-making by, in this case, the DfT and The Treasury, and that's often quite a successful political strategy to deflect attention.
 

capital12

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The submissions to the forthcoming Transport Select Committee include one from Network Rail detailing exactly what has and hasn't happened, and at least to my reading, they confirm once again that no part of the revenue issues that the franchise has faced from handover day are related to infrastructure commitments not having been met to date.

There was a relevant point regarding the Virgin Trains East Coast award made during the recent Public Accounts Committee hearing, however, that there's a significant 'blind' trading period between the franchise award date and handover day, which means that months of operating performance and new trends are completely unknown to the new operator.

I except the failure of Network Rail to carry out upgrades will not yet have had an impact on revenue but will certainly have been factored into the decision surely? And there can be no doubt all the failings of the current infrastructure and the horror stories of delays will have had a significant impact on passenger numbers and therefore revenue since the start of the franchise, which already started on the back foot due to the inflated passenger forecasts from the DfT.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The problem with planned NR upgrades being postponed certainly will impact future capacity and revenues.
So VTEC might well have grounds to pull out of the contract (or renegotiate it) on that basis.
DfT (the taxpayer) has not yet lost out on the contract, the losses are all with the VTEC shareholders.

DfT is still searching for a formula which reflects the swings in franchise revenue because of wider economic factors, irrespective of who is running the trains.
The same would be true for a public operator as well as private.
Faced with economic downturn, what should franchise policy be?
BR's solution in 1990 was to cut services by 10% and scrap a lot of perfectly usable stock.
 

FQTV

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I except the failure of Network Rail to carry out upgrades will not yet have had an impact on revenue but will certainly have been factored into the decision surely? And there can be no doubt all the failings of the current infrastructure and the horror stories of delays will have had a significant impact on passenger numbers and therefore revenue since the start of the franchise, which already started on the back foot due to the inflated passenger forecasts from the DfT.

At the Public Accounts Committee Hearing, the witnesses from Stagecoach and Virgin Trains East Coast said that revenue was an issue right from handover day.

Presumably other bidders offered less, and perhaps they did so because they believed that the potential of the route was lower.

Whatever the DfT forecasts for passenger numbers and revenue potential were, Virgin Trains East Coast bid and won on that basis.

They then went on to reduce on board staffing levels, resulting in problems with catering in both Standard and First; preside over rolling stock maintenance issues leading to (for example) short formations and lack of on board toilet facilities; short-staffing at ticket offices; remove platform/gateline staff; introduce website problems including disappearing gift vouchers and the inability to book cycle spaces, catering vouchers or make changes without full cancellation and rebooks; offer unreliable mobile ticketing and Apps; continue not to resolve reservation printer failures; overwhelm their contact centres; process delay repay responses slowly; remove clarity in the process for refunds; overtly brand marketing messages which do not appear to have appropriately segmented different audiences etc., etc.

Those are things that customers have experienced first hand, and they are things that may have affected their propensity to continue using the service at the same level, or to increase or reduce their levels of custom. They are things that may also have affected the likelihood of encouraging or discouraging new business.

The wires coming down at Retford has been almost a constant complaint from BR through GNER and National Express to East Coast and now Virgin, possibly to such an extent that it only has a limited or marginal impact on propensity to travel on the route.
 

Bletchleyite

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Temporarily, I see. The mind does boggle given that one of the most politically popular moves they could ever make would be to renationalise the network.

Even Thatcher wasn't brave enough to privatise.
 

Schweir

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Getting renationalised: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44142258

Rail services on East Coast Main Line are being brought back under UK government control, operator Stagecoach Group says.

Stagecoach, which runs the franchise with Virgin Trains, said it has been advised that an "operator of last resort" would be appointed to the London to Edinburgh service.

Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling is expected to make a statement to parliament shortly.
 
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nedchester

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44142258
Rail services on East Coast Main Line are being brought back under UK government control, operator Stagecoach Group says.

Stagecoach, which runs the franchise with Virgin Trains, said it has been advised that an "operator of last resort" would be appointed to the London to Edinburgh service.

Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling is expected to make a statement to parliament shortly.
Awesome!

:D:D
 
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Tetchytyke

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Network Rail have failed to provide the upgrades that were promised and the current infrastructure fails on a near daily basis how do you expect a company to provide an accurate bid and stick to it?

a) Still waiting for evidence of these "promises" by Network Rail.
b) The franchise has failed because of mismanagement now, not because of what may or may not happen in three years.
c) Does it? Really? The last wire down incident was caused by a 700. IME most delays I've been caught up in have been suicides.

The simple fact is that Stagecoach got their sums wrong and DfT did too. Both sides were too desperate to show they could do better than DOR. Truthfully I think DOR wrung all they could from the line.
 

Bletchleyite

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DOR East Coast was an extremely good operation, all things said. Of course now we need to start again from scratch to get it there.

And no, I'm not *that* biased, I think VTWC, other than the issue with barrier staff not accepting perfectly valid tickets (which I'm sure would exist under BR as well), is a very good operation too. But VTEC seemed to take all the worst bits of Stagecoach and Virgin and whack them together in one rather poor package.
 

SammyJ

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Stagecoach Group plc - Appointment of Operator of Last Resort at InterCity East Coast http://otp.investis.com/clients/uk/stagecoach/rns/regulatory-story.aspx?cid=273&newsid=1016140

We have now been advised by the Department for Transport that the Secretary of State for Transport plans to announce today that he intends to appoint the "Operator of Last Resort" ("the OLR") to operate the InterCity East Coast trains services.

The Company's subsidiary company, East Coast Mainline Company Limited ("ECML", trading as Virgin Trains East Coast) is the current operator of the InterCity East Coast rail franchise under an agreement with the Department for Transport ("DfT"). ECML has been negotiating a new direct award franchise with the DfT but we understand that the Secretary of State for Transport is no longer considering entering into a new franchise with ECML. The financial consequences of that are expected to be consistent with the Company's announcement of 5 February 2018...
 
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