Northern's Problems in the North West

[driver_m]

In a loosely linked to the thread kind of question how on earth do the signallers cope with trains being dumped everywhere and journeys half finished? When no-one has any idea what services are running where? Are they working to some kind of contingency plan to try and avoid blocking the main lines?

Heard rumours that some of them who deal with some of the busiest stations are rather unhappy, to put it bluntly. Can't say I blame them either. Lime St has bordered on farcical at times with the platforms being knocked out for the modernisation work.

 

[Matt_pool]

Following Northern services from Lime Street to Warrington Central/Man Oxford Road cancelled this evening so far.

17.55
18.19
18.55
19.55

It's been an absolute shambles on that line, especially on Sunday just gone when originally every other train was cancelled, then they started to cancel the trains in between. And it's only an hourly service on Sunday!

And there were no trains on Saturday because of the strike!

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I'm pleased someone else has asked this very question. I can understand that a good many are needed to know the route, plus spares, plus holiday cover, plus contingency etc etc etc - but 400 ??

How many northern drivers are based at Blackpool? , obviously all of them plus the links from any other depots that have work there, I’m sure someone on here has a rough idea what that amounts to .

Depots involved are Blackpool, Blackburn, Wigan, Lime Street, Victoria, Buxton and Leeds. At some depots only some drivers cover Blackpool in their link meaning not all drivers at the depot will need to sign the route. All in all I would say 400 could actually be on the low side.

 

[vidal]

Will this actually be recoverable in the short to medium term? Commuters will abandon the service and find alternatives. The leisure market is just too unreliable.

I was planning on a trip next weekend from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Edinburgh. Getting a taxi to get me to Wigan will negate any cost saving on the advance fare. I decided not to book the train and we are now going by car for the weekend.

 

[superkev]

How is Northern keeping its franchise disgusting service 200 trains either cancelled or altered today already,how can you possibly plan a journey

Perhaps northern don't actually want to keep it.
K

 

[Matt_pool]

This evenings 20.54 from Lime Street to Warrington Central/Manchester Airport now cancelled!

 

[jayah]

I completely agree. A simplified emergency timetable with wholly self contained diagrams and all trains at maximum length.

They could call it a strike timetable. Seems to run better when they are meant to be striking than when they are working.

 

[squizzler]

Will this actually be recoverable in the short to medium term? Commuters will abandon the service and find alternatives. The leisure market is just too unreliable.

When you consider the period of almost total service collapse following the Hatfield disaster (that one which led to the collapse of Railtrack) this did not stop the subsequent growth of rail travel.

Compared to that occasion, which was much worse than this since passenger safety was seen as being in jeopardy, this is small beer.

I’d wager that people will always come back if the service meets their requirements better than the alternatives.

 

[Matt_pool]

19.19 from Lime Street to Man Oxford Road left 48 mins late and will not be calling at any intermediate stations, not even Warrington Central, and is going straight through to Oxford Road!

 

[47802]

When you consider the period of almost total service collapse following the Hatfield disaster (that one which led to the collapse of Railtrack) this did not stop the subsequent growth of rail travel.

Compared to that occasion, which was much worse than this since passenger safety was seen as being in jeopardy, this is small beer.

I’d wager that people will always come back if the service meets their requirements better than the alternatives.

In the long term possibly, however Arriva need to be given a damn good kicking both financially and reputationaly for this, and of course it's no consolation for those that needs to use these services now.

 

[158756]

When you consider the period of almost total service collapse following the Hatfield disaster (that one which led to the collapse of Railtrack) this did not stop the subsequent growth of rail travel.

Compared to that occasion, which was much worse than this since passenger safety was seen as being in jeopardy, this is small beer.

I’d wager that people will always come back if the service meets their requirements better than the alternatives.

That may be true, but in the North, certainly outside the major cities, people will find that driving isn't that bad, or even that the bus might be an acceptable alternative. The leisure market will drive or not go at all. The market is not captive as it is in London.

Hatfield happened in the middle of a long period of sustained rapid growth. Growth has now stalled or gone into reverse in some places, even that supposedly captive London market is struggling. It is far from guaranteed that passengers will consider returning to the train this time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Will this actually be recoverable in the short to medium term? Commuters will abandon the service and find alternatives. The leisure market is just too unreliable.

I was planning on a trip next weekend from Euxton Balshaw Lane to Edinburgh. Getting a taxi to get me to Wigan will negate any cost saving on the advance fare. I decided not to book the train and we are now going by car for the weekend.

The only way to recover it in my view is a simplified emergency timetable along the lines of the strike timetables but with more trains on more routes, meeting the following criteria:

- All trains at maximum length
- Simple shuttle services
- Simplified stopping patterns
- Simplified staff diagrams, i.e. one member of staff will operate one given route all shift
- Through services to Barrow/Windermere and other similar ones withdrawn to operate simple shuttle services instead

And have a load of buses on standby.

 

[gazzaa2]

Following Northern services from Lime Street to Warrington Central/Man Oxford Road cancelled this evening so far.

17.55
18.19
18.55
19.55

It's been an absolute shambles on that line, especially on Sunday just gone when originally every other train was cancelled, then they started to cancel the trains in between. And it's only an hourly service on Sunday!

And there were no trains on Saturday because of the strike!

I usually get the 15:55 but checked beforehand and that was cancelled and a few around it were as well, so it wasn't just rush hour. I just decided to get the bus in the end as I could see there was barely a train running on that line and a hot day and all the half term crowd the odd train that did run would be rammed.

It really is an absolute joke. I'm actually glad Lime Street is shut for 2 months so I can avoid this service altogether.

 

[gazzaa2]

19.19 from Lime Street to Man Oxford Road left 48 mins late and will not be calling at any intermediate stations, not even Warrington Central, and is going straight through to Oxford Road!

I doubt many people use the stopper service anyway to get from Lime St to Oxford Road when there's much quicker routes to get into Manchester via Oxford Road/Victoria/Piccadilly.

The people who use the service use it for the intermediate stations.

 

[northernchris]

The only way to recover it in my view is a simplified emergency timetable along the lines of the strike timetables but with more trains on more routes, meeting the following criteria:

- All trains at maximum length
- Simple shuttle services
- Simplified stopping patterns
- Simplified staff diagrams, i.e. one member of staff will operate one given route all shift
- Through services to Barrow/Windermere and other similar ones withdrawn to operate simple shuttle services instead

And have a load of buses on standby.

It does need a simple, non-cross city timetable until enough drivers are trained to deliver the timetable. Or at the very least cancel the same services daily so there's a bit more stability

 

[vidal]

Or at the very least cancel the same services daily so there's a bit more stability

Nail on head

 

[jayah]

It does need a simple, non-cross city timetable until enough drivers are trained to deliver the timetable. Or at the very least cancel the same services daily so there's a bit more stability

There seems to be a common thread here.

Train companies should provide simple, deliverable timetables with big high capacity trains where needed.

A wonder if anyone important to do much about it is listening?

There seem to be a fair few that have overreached of late.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does need a simple, non-cross city timetable until enough drivers are trained to deliver the timetable. Or at the very least cancel the same services daily so there's a bit more stability

Agreed.

 

[Bertie the bus]

When you consider the period of almost total service collapse following the Hatfield disaster (that one which led to the collapse of Railtrack) this did not stop the subsequent growth of rail travel.

Compared to that occasion, which was much worse than this since passenger safety was seen as being in jeopardy, this is small beer.

I’d wager that people will always come back if the service meets their requirements better than the alternatives.

This one is worse. It isn't on a national scale but post-Hatfield the TOCs brought in emergency timetables. There were fewer trains and they took much longer, especially InterCity routes, but my recollection of that time is trains pretty much ran to the emergency timetable.

Now you can turn up at the station 5 minutes before your train is due with the PIS saying it is on time and the service can get cancelled. Even if your outbound service runs you have no idea when, or even if, you will get home.

A complete lack of confidence in the service is worse than the inconvenience of a longer journey.

 

[B&I]

One consolation from the continued chaos is that the irritating chorus of voices, initially trying to tell those of us who actually rely on these services, that this was a little local difficulty which would soon end, have been silenced.

 

[Mathew S]

The statement from Northern seems odd to me. They say they have 1,529 drivers of whom over 400 need to sign the road to Blackpool. Really?

Over a quarter of their entire driving staff need to sign Blackpool?

Just doesn't seem to make sense. (And I write this as a former Depot Editor in a diagramming office.)

It seemed odd to me too, but I don't know anything like enough to comment. Interesting that you think the same, with your experience.

 

[js1000]

I doubt many people use the stopper service anyway to get from Lime St to Oxford Road when there's much quicker routes to get into Manchester via Oxford Road/Victoria/Piccadilly.

The people who use the service use it for the intermediate stations.

Indeed, it's not fair on those commuter passengers between Manchester and Crewe and Liverpool to have so many services cancelled at intermediate commuter stations to make up delayed time.

If Northern cannot guarantee a reduced level of cancellations (we're talking a couple a day maximum - not the 10-15+ we're seeing daily) then the timetable is not working for passengers and they should divide it into two services between Liverpool and Manchester and Manchester and Crewe.

Passengers have become disposable pawns in the game to Northern. It is simply not acceptable and in my mind is an underhand yet legal form of theft - pay for your ticket before but the train might be cancelled. It's not on and they should be called out on it.

The only relief I have is that Liverpool Lime St will closed from 8 June till the end of July. The service between Liverpool and Crewe will be run as two separate services as it was before the timetable change. If the situation improves as I suspect it will it could be that an amended timetable is implemented. One of the Liverpool to Crewe services every hour will run to Manchester only. Likewise Crewe to Liverpool will run only to Manchester only via the Airport once an hour and terminate at one of the now many available bay platforms at Piccadilly.

 

[47802]

One consolation from the continued chaos is that the irritating chorus of voices, initially trying to tell those of us who actually rely on these services, that this was a little local difficulty which would soon end, have been silenced.

Quite, while clearly some of the blame for this is Network Rail's and Hendy and Co should have got the boot long ago, Northern must have some idea what level of service they can provide and come up with some kind of emergency Timetable with max possible train lengths for those services that do run.

 

[Robertj21a]

It seemed odd to me too, but I don't know anything like enough to comment. Interesting that you think the same, with your experience.

I still feel the same way too. From other helpful comments on here there seem to be an enormous number of depots involved with, presumably, a sizeable number of their drivers affected. If nothing else, there may be some scope to review whether the driver rotas could be improved.

 

[B&I]

Quite, while clearly some of the blame for this is Network Rail's and Hendy and Co should have got the boot long ago, Northern must have some idea what level of service they can provide and come up with some kind of emergency Timetable with max possible train lengths for those services that do run.

As you and Bletchleyite have pointed out, this is imperative. Why is it not being done ? Are Northern somehow considered compliant with DfT's diktats if they pretend to operate the new timetable, even if in practice it does not work ? Or do they lack the capacity to draw up an emergency timetable ?

 

[nedchester]

As you and Bletchleyite have pointed out, this is imperative. Why is it not being done ? Are Northern somehow considered compliant with DfT's diktats if they pretend to operate the new timetable, even if in practice it does not work ? Or do they lack the capacity to draw up an emergency timetable ?

An “emergency” timetable I understand is being devised but it can’t be done overnight especially when you have to allocate train crew (which they are already short of) to those trains.

 

[The Planner]

As you and Bletchleyite have pointed out, this is imperative. Why is it not being done ? Are Northern somehow considered compliant with DfT's diktats if they pretend to operate the new timetable, even if in practice it does not work ? Or do they lack the capacity to draw up an emergency timetable ?

Quite likely the latter, their planning team is not big and they will be doing their best, but there is only a finite resource.

 

[Bantamzen]

As you and Bletchleyite have pointed out, this is imperative. Why is it not being done ? Are Northern somehow considered compliant with DfT's diktats if they pretend to operate the new timetable, even if in practice it does not work ? Or do they lack the capacity to draw up an emergency timetable ?

An “emergency” timetable I understand is being devised but it can’t be done overnight especially when you have to allocate train crew (which they are already short of) to those trains.

Quite likely the latter, their planning team is not big and they will be doing their best, but there is only a finite resource.

Playing the devil's advocate somewhat here, but having been forced into planning timetables in weeks rather than months due to the mess of engineering overruns / delays, Northern can hardly be expected to devise an emergency timetable in days rather than weeks. Yes they have had timetables in place for strike days, but these were probably long in planning and they have had time to tweak these as the dispute has gone along.

Yes they should be doing a better job, but they can't just announce a totally different timetable overnight. This month's changes haven't just been affecting Northern, TPE are having a 'mare and no doubt this is translating into VTWC, East Midlands et al. Its an unholy mess in the North West without a doubt, tempered somewhat by the upcoming Liverpool blockade which I'm sure will be used to take a long hard look at what has happened & try to formulate a solution. This isn't the first time that planning has gone up the spout, nor are Northern the first company to get things wrong (look at the mess that was Southern for a very long time). All we can all hope for is that the said blockade gives them time to work out a better plan, and for the DfT to ask serious questions of all TOCs concerned, Network Rail & its contractors as to why things are just so bad.

Edit: Just a supplemental thought here, this is exactly the kind of leverage the train crews in dispute with Northern could seek to use. I wonder if anyone in the unions concerned has thought of offering a deal to end it by offering the goodwill of the crews to work some extra shifts etc? Given the current growing bad press, Northern / Arriva would be remiss to ignore any love branch offered to help end at least some of the chaos in return for some / most demands of the dispute met? As an ex-union rep this is the sort of thing I'd be working on, however I'm an ex-union rep because too many of my fellow reps where stuck in the 1970's and so this kind of thinking was beyond then, so maybe I'm being a bit over-optimistic!!

 

[TrW]

- 254 fully cancelled services;
- 146 partially cancelled services
- 84 reduced carriages
- People fainting on their way into work due to over crowding
- This nightmare at Victoria


Is it just a matter of time until we see some serious injury or worse due to overcrowding on trains and at platforms?

One consolation from the continued chaos is that the irritating chorus of voices, initially trying to tell those of us who actually rely on these services, that this was a little local difficulty which would soon end, have been silenced.

couldn't agree more. Unfortunately the narrative seems to be issues caused by timetable changes when the reality is it has been dragging on for close to two months now.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The only relief I have is that Liverpool Lime St will closed from 8 June till the end of July. The service between Liverpool and Crewe will be run as two separate services as it was before the timetable change. If the situation improves as I suspect it will it could be that an amended timetable is implemented. One of the Liverpool to Crewe services every hour will run to Manchester only. Likewise Crewe to Liverpool will run only to Manchester only via the Airport once an hour and terminate at one of the now many available bay platforms at Piccadilly.

I don't think that's quite correct.
During the blockade the Liverpool-Airport-Crewe is diverted to Manchester Victoria (to partly compensate for no TPE west of Victoria).
The Liverpool-Warrington BQ also diverts to Manchester Victoria, making 2tph.
The Crewe-Airport-Liverpool will normally terminate at Deansgate.
The Liverpool-Blackpool fast also becomes an extension of a Wigan slow, rather than a separate service.

Then the Lime St blockade means that for two periods within the 8 weeks Chat Moss trains will start from Huyton anyway. ​