Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[JonathanH]

If this is a reliable timetable showing a service that we actually get, then it will be a major improvement over previous weeks, even if only one third of the usual departures from Harpo on Saturday. Is there any obvious and logical reason why four tph from Bedford on Sunday when the slow simply follows four minutes behind the fastest far as St Albans? I would have thought that these would be better deployed elsewhere, assuming drivers involved have suitable route knowledge. Still, I am sure that Thameslink know best.

The published timetable on the Railplan 2020 website has the service starting at Luton in which case the fact that it follows the faster train would appear to make sense - apart from the fact that the stock stables at Bedford and presumably Bedford drivers are involved there doesn't seem to be an obvious reason for extending the trains to Bedford (especially since they don't run 4tph north of St Albans in the Saturday timetable).

 

[Tunnel Bore]

View attachment 48371 View attachment 48372 At Gatwick airport today, the TVMs were still charging normal fares, but this morning the small notice telling customers to purchase "not Gatwick Express" fares was applied to each machine. This afternoon, the larger more explicit notice was applied. I am not sure the average tourist made much sense of them.

A good thing for many I am sure, more so people with TOC specific season tickets. I wonder if those of us regular GAT-EX commuters with any-permitted season tickets will get any compensation, as happens for first class holders when it is declassified.

 

[talldave]

A good thing for many I am sure, more so people with TOC specific season tickets. I wonder if those of us regular GAT-EX commuters with any-permitted season tickets will get any compensation, as happens for first class holders when it is declassified.

It might be worth doing the maths on an exchange to a cheaper season until 31 August and then (assuming the 31 August deadline is not extended) exchanging back again from 1st September?

I was in shock last night - I actually found myself on a Thameslink train from London Bridge to Gravesend! I sat in first (since there is none on that route) and all was good apart from corrupted station names on the PA at a few stations.

 

[bramling]

at worst a rant from somebody who just can't accept reality. I don't think that anybody is listening to the broken record anymore.

The only thing broken is the Thameslink Programme which has completely failed to deliver what it set out to do, and the fact that a handful of people still attempt to defend the reality of the service on offer - which is gaps of several hours at some stations on a regular basis, something which simply wasn't seen before the timetable change. I can assure you commuters and other users (*) don't view the shambolic situation as a "broken record", although of course you've made it very clear from numerous posts that you seem to have some kind of grudge against commuters, seemingly because you feel aggrieved they (in your opinion) pay less per journey than holders of daily tickets and/or are somehow "subsidised".

(* it's worth remembering that there are plenty of people who make local journeys - largely on daily tickets - and go nowhere near London, who are quite rightly bemused and furious that they can't turn up at a station and make a local journey without it being a lottery as to how long the journey will take.)

As regards waiting to "test" the new timetable, this doesn't help people trying to use the service *now*. It shouldn't need to be tested, it should have worked fine out of the box, especially given all the years of preparation, or it shouldn't have been implemented. We don't need to wait and see how unreliable it might be when there is full driver availability, we've already seen how issues will lead to massive gaps at many stations, and how there's little which can be done to mitigate against that - the timetable needs to be replanned into something which offers a dependable service, and there have been plenty of suggestions on here as to how that might be achieved whilst retaining many of the capacity and journey opportunity benefits the Thameslink Programme attempted to deliver.

 

[MarkW]

The On Time Trains Delay Repay tool now takes into account GTR's amended delay repay policy, so you can quickly see which services are eligible for delay repay under the new rules.

It provides an interesting view into the gaps in the temporary timetable - a number of services are now always eligible for delay repay compensation, even if they run on time. Here's an example resulting from the removal of 4 consecutive services from St Albans to London in the temporary timetable.

 

[talldave]

Another side effect of all this insanity is that customers using Higham are no longer entitled to Southeastern's Kids for a Quid offer, whilst one stop away at Strood or Gravesend the offer is available.

 

[OwenB]

The On Time Trains Delay Repay tool now takes into account GTR's amended delay repay policy, so you can quickly see which services are eligible for delay repay under the new rules.

It provides an interesting view into the gaps in the temporary timetable - a number of services are now always eligible for delay repay compensation, even if they run on time. Here's an example resulting from the removal of 4 consecutive services from St Albans to London in the temporary timetable.

That's a good little tool. Thanks for posting.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The only thing broken is the Thameslink Programme which has completely failed to deliver what it set out to do, and the fact that a handful of people still attempt to defend the reality of the service on offer - which is gaps of several hours at some stations on a regular basis, something which simply wasn't seen before the timetable change. I can assure you commuters and other users (*) don't view the shambolic situation as a "broken record", although of course you've made it very clear from numerous posts that you seem to have some kind of grudge against commuters, seemingly because you feel aggrieved they (in your opinion) pay less per journey than holders of daily tickets.

(* it's worth remembering that there are plenty of people who make local journeys - largely on daily tickets - and go nowhere near London, who are quite rightly bemused and furious that they can't turn up at a station and make a local journey without it being a lottery as to how long the journey will take.)

As regards waiting to "test" the new timetable, this doesn't help people trying to use the service *now*. It shouldn't need to be tested, it should have worked fine out of the box, especially given all the years of preparation, or it shouldn't have been implemented. We don't need to wait and see how unreliable it might be when there is full driver availability, we've already seen how issues will lead to massive gaps at many stations, and how there's little which can be done to mitigate against that - the timetable needs to be replanned into something which offers a dependable service, and there have been plenty of suggestions on here as to how that might be achieved whilst retaining many of the capacity and journey opportunity benefits the Thameslink Programme attempted to deliver.

Spot on!

Thameslink should have been ready from May 20th 2018 on the dot, no excuses, the Thameslink scheme in some form has been in the planning and preparation since the late 80s/early 90s, there is absolutely no excuse for this shambles whatsoever.

With all the talk of benefits that Thameslink brings Medway has yet to see those benefits, when the service decides to run that is, Thameslink just panicked and had to send a train somewhere with no real thought and as result Higham is left with a cr**py service

 

[BRX]

This thread is getting to being a bit like listening to a broken record.

 

[bramling]

This thread is getting to being a bit like listening to a broken record.

It takes the biscuit that some posters are saying it’s not appropriate to challenge completely baseless assertions. It’s a similar “it will work” ethos which has got ThamesLink/ into this mess.

 

[sbt]

As regards waiting to "test" the new timetable, this doesn't help people trying to use the service *now*. It shouldn't need to be tested, it should have worked fine out of the box.

Indeed. What the previous poster was suggesting was testing on human subjects. Whilst this isn't medical experimentation it is experimentation on humans, with livelihoods rather than lives at risk. There are some very important ethical questions to be asked around deliberate experimentation with Critical National Assets.

Temporary problems with and for the rail network can have permanent impacts on it's customers (as well as permanent second order effects for the system itself). To deliberately create a known risk or actuality of significant permanent impacts on your customers in order to make changes that you know to be experimental or high risk without at least mitigation plans in place is ethically dubious at best.

 

[gingerheid]

I've only being paying attention to Great Northern, which is the smaller part of this mess. But... overall... are there any signs that things are getting better? Thursday was a good day for GN and might have given hope, but then Friday was a bad one again, and today has also been pretty grim.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

With 2 tph Bedford - Brighton and 2 tph St Albans - Sutton , the trains that run are extremely busy. A service well below the norm. Changed onto a 12 car at LAP this pm , and the 30 min interval 12 car was pretty much up to peak loadings. 1646 on a Saturday ....

So there must be a large cadre of drivers "not required" , hopefully used to good effect in training. Or not.

Still , the number of people doing car trips vice what used to be easy local journeys , such as LUA - SAC (done two in the last 5 days) - will clearly dent the revenue to the DfT. Not that they care.

 

[bramling]

With 2 tph Bedford - Brighton and 2 tph St Albans - Sutton , the trains that run are extremely busy. A service well below the norm. Changed onto a 12 car at LAP this pm , and the 30 min interval 12 car was pretty much up to peak loadings. 1646 on a Saturday ....

So there must be a large cadre of drivers "not required" , hopefully used to good effect in training. Or not.

Still , the number of people doing car trips vice what used to be easy local journeys , such as LUA - SAC (done two in the last 5 days) - will clearly dent the revenue to the DfT. Not that they care.

I bet there are a lot of local car journeys being made. In my road I’m aware of four households who are now driving to London, and I hear there’s been a noticeable increase in car park usage at some LU stations at the north end of the Northern in particular. I bet there’s seasons not being renewed.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I bet there are a lot of local car journeys being made. In my road I’m aware of four households who are now driving to London, and I hear there’s been a noticeable increase in car park usage at some LU stations at the north end of the Northern in particular. I bet there’s seasons not being renewed.

Good number of locals I talk to have had bad experiences of late night TLK trains not operating from the city , such that driving to Stanmore or even Cockfosters from St Albans is now perceived as a safer option than taking the main line train. Poor show.

Course in times past , you might have taken the GN option via Hatfield ...

 

[bramling]

Good number of locals I talk to have had bad experiences of late night TLK trains not operating from the city , such that driving to Stanmore or even Cockfosters from St Albans is now perceived as a safer option than taking the main line train. Poor show.

Course in times past , you might have taken the GN option via Hatfield ...

Yes so many times have I travelled out of KX and seen the concourse flooded with displaced TL punters heading to Hatfield or Hitchin. Surprisingly enough the reverse scenario was rather rarer!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yes so many times have I travelled out of KX and seen the concourse flooded with displaced TL punters heading to Hatfield or Hitchin. Surprisingly enough the reverse scenario was rather rarer!

Good point , and I would confirm that , a trickle of extras via the Abbey Branch is also evident. (from local staff comments).....

 

[tsr]

Good point , and I would confirm that , a trickle of extras via the Abbey Branch is also evident. (from local staff comments).....

“London Thameslink” tickets from some stations on the MML route north of London are valid by default to Euston (without extra ticket acceptance in place). A cynic would say this goes to show even the fare setters knew the diversion would be needed, though I have my doubts...

 

[BRX]

With 2 tph Bedford - Brighton and 2 tph St Albans - Sutton , the trains that run are extremely busy. A service well below the norm. Changed onto a 12 car at LAP this pm , and the 30 min interval 12 car was pretty much up to peak loadings. 1646 on a Saturday ....

So there must be a large cadre of drivers "not required" , hopefully used to good effect in training. Or not.

Still , the number of people doing car trips vice what used to be easy local journeys , such as LUA - SAC (done two in the last 5 days) - will clearly dent the revenue to the DfT. Not that they care.

4tph to Sutton isn't it?

 

[jeremyjh]

4tph to Sutton isn't it?

Not in my recent experience.

 

[Kite159]

4tph to Sutton isn't it?

Yesterday it was 4 tph from St Albans to Sutton, 2tph via Wimbledon & 2tph via Mitchen.

Plus the 2 tph Bedford - Brighton, so for stations north of St Albans from London it was 2 tph instead of 6.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Yesterday it was 4 tph from St Albans to Sutton, 2tph via Wimbledon & 2tph via Mitchen.

Plus the 2 tph Bedford - Brighton, so for stations north of St Albans from London it was 2 tph instead of 6.

Hence my very good fortune to make on the 2 TPH at Luton Airport Parkway - one used to be relaxed about changing there off an up EMT. Turning the locals at SAC also broke the inner London to LAP direct connection , which is quite well used.

Cheese paring of the worst sort.

More of an issue than Higham shall we say....

 

[BRX]

My local station is on the Sutton loop and one of the things the new timetable has changed is that we now get 4tph right through the day, whereas previously it went to 2tph in the early mornings and late evenings. This is actually quite a big benefit.

I don't generally have to use it in the peaks but my experience is that it's not been running *too* badly since the changeover. Certainly there have been some days where several trains get cancelled in a row but as it happens, each time I've used it over the past couple of weeks I've been able to make the journey I wanted to.

It's always been pretty unreliable on the loop though. Of course at one point the suggestion was to terminate our trains at Blackfriars, and I'd probably have preferred that if it had brought us a more reliable service, but there was a big campaign locally to retain the through services. Which seems ironic reading all the comments on this thread from people who now have 'through' services but don't want them.

 

[Hadders]

I went traveled from Stevenage to Kings Cross yesterday afternoon, returning around 20:30. I couldn't really complain about the train service as both ways a train turned up within 5 minutes of me arriving at the station (appreciate that's probably not the case elsewhere on the line).

But on both journeys the train was empty. On the way back I caught the 20:35 Ely service which was making an additional call at Stevenage and boarded it at the last minute. I had a bay of 4 seats to myself - totally unheard of at that time of day, you're usually lucky to get a seat boarding a few seconds before departure. It was the same last weekend as well - empty trains at the weekend to and from London.

It looks to me as though the leisure market has been destroyed. Well done DfT/GTR.

 

[Failed Unit]

Looks fairly normal on GN this morning.

Inners running ok.
Outers badly effectively closing stations such as Foxton, Meldreth, Shepreth, Knebworth and Welwyn North.

I must admit now I am more surprised if anything is running on Sunday. Cockfosters seems much busier at weekends.

 

[rdwarr]

Looks fairly normal on GN this morning.

Twitter shows what is becoming perceived as "normal". They've told one guy travelling from Baldock to London to go to Cambridge and come back from there whilst another poor lady travelling Cambridge to London was put on a rail replacement bus from Cambridge to Stevenage just before the train she wanted actually departed!

Underpinning all of the "planning" debate is the fact that people's days are being ruined, planned events, family gatherings, Father's Day meets etc. are being lost and it's heartbreaking to see it all falling apart.

 

[bramling]

Twitter shows what is becoming perceived as "normal". They've told one guy travelling from Baldock to London to go to Cambridge and come back from there whilst another poor lady travelling Cambridge to London was put on a rail replacement bus from Cambridge to Stevenage just before the train she wanted actually departed!

Underpinning all of the "planning" debate is the fact that people's days are being ruined, planned events, family gatherings, Father's Day meets etc. are being lost and it's heartbreaking to see it all falling apart.

The worst thing about all this is GN was a pretty reliable railway just a few years ago. Whilst it was fragile in that things could fall apart quickly once something comparatively small went wrong, nonetheless a lot of effort had been put in by National Express to get the basics right, such that most of the time things didn't go wrong and the service generally ran on time. First Capital Connect continued this, and whilst they weren't to everyone's taste they did at least maintain a good service operationally, increased capacity, and had a good flow of information such that when disruption did happen people generally knew what was going on.

Since the 2000s this railway *should* have got even better - with additional platforms at Peterborough and Cambridge, the Hitchin flyover, extra tracks available in the Alexandra Palace/Finsbury Park area, an extra platform at King's Cross, extra trains, and more reliable and quicker 387s replacing the 317s/321s. Instead, thanks to the Thameslink Programme and its associated TSGN franchise, this dependable rail service has been totally destroyed, and I just can't see it recovering to anything like the same level of dependability unless the whole programme is looked at again.

I hear there have been issues at High Barnet with the station car park filling up unusually early, I wonder why that is?!

 

[Failed Unit]

Twitter shows what is becoming perceived as "normal". They've told one guy travelling from Baldock to London to go to Cambridge and come back from there whilst another poor lady travelling Cambridge to London was put on a rail replacement bus from Cambridge to Stevenage just before the train she wanted actually departed!

Underpinning all of the "planning" debate is the fact that people's days are being ruined, planned events, family gatherings, Father's Day meets etc. are being lost and it's heartbreaking to see it all falling apart.

To me this is what I consider as normal now. Look at the live departures on board for say Foxton. Everything cancelled.

I am still wondering when they match up the diagrams with available drivers and a what point they knew they didnt have enough to run the London - Cambridge service.

Maybe they need to go back to an even more basic service. Just 2tph

1. London - Kings Lynn
Stevenage and ALL stations to Kings Lynn.
2 London - Peterborough
Finsbury Park, Potters Bar, Hatfield and all stations to Peterborough.

Decent connection at Stevenage between 2

I am sure people would appreciate it if it ran. But they could operate it with 365s / 387s to ensure traction clearance.

 

[jagardner1984]

Cynically, with growth in London commuting perpetually outstripping supply, and giving DfT large bills in infrastructure and huge reputational damage, you might say that driving large numbers of commuters onto the roads queuing in nice polite lines for hours on end to get to Barnet, somewhat moves the problem off their doorstep.

It is truly astonishing that DfT don't take responsibility for this, and it is truly astonishing Chris Grayling still has a job.

 

[The Box Photter]

Cynically, with growth in London commuting perpetually outstripping supply, and giving DfT large bills in infrastructure and huge reputational damage, you might say that driving large numbers of commuters onto the roads queuing in nice polite lines for hours on end to get to Barnet, somewhat moves the problem off their doorstep.

It is truly astonishing that DfT don't take responsibility for this, and it is truly astonishing Chris Grayling still has a job.

But even if Grayling was given the bullet by May tomorrow, he'd still be raking in his MP's salary for his nice safe Tory seat. When a Minister 'loses their job' all it means is that their current push to further their own career has temporarily hit the buffers (to use an approriate phrase). They can then return to the back-benches to plot the downfall of the other political parasites who de-throned them. They don't have the impact a real person would experience if they lost their job if, for example, their employer let them go because they were regularly late for work due to train problems.

As for DfT, I expect there has been a lot of email deleting and paper shredding going on over the past few weeks. Trying to pin the blame on any senior civil servant would be like trying to nail jelly to a wall.