Liverpool Lime St remodelling

[The_Engineer]

There has been talk on here of diverting local trains underground. Despite being a regular of user of both the overground into Lime Street (or South Parkway yesterday (from London)) and the underground in Liverpool, I am really struggling to get my head around the proposed route from the main lines into the underground. Does anybody have a diagram or visual of some sort they could share on here? Even a good description would be helpful.

I don't have a map but the initial MALTS study for a Merseyrail system in the late 60s has a burrowing junction immediately south of the Northern Line Central Station that emerged at Edge Hill via the old disused tunnel on the north side of the station. An intermediate underground station was planned near to the University/Cathedrals but would have been quiet expensive to do. In the end the line was not built but the burrowing junction tunnels were provided off the Northern Line to allow the line to be built in future. I have heard little of doing this line since.

The idea of this line was to run an outer suburban service out to Broad Green and then split two ways - north and south - along the old Cheshire Lines trackbed. Southwards the line would have gone through Gatacre to Hunts Cross and so back to Liverpool. Northwards the line would have passed through Knotty Ash, Norris Green and back onto the Ormskirk or Kirkby lines at Walton, then into Liverpool. There was also the prospect of some local services such as to St Helens being diverted to run into these tunnels.

I think the junctions at Broad Green may have been stymied by the later building of the M62 extension......

 

[edwin_m]

If network rail were so concerned about Manchester airport bound TPEx trains crossing the throat of Piccadilly, the answer was simple - don't run them to the airport! Trains already on that path could easily do so instead, such as the Chester train (which ATW wanted anyway, and have been made to wait to get one).

The airport bound TPEs crossed in two stages - on the way in and on the way out, so weren't so bad. The main problem was the crossing of the entire throat in one go by ... the Liverpool TPEs.

 

[PR1Berske]

I don't have a map but the initial MALTS study for a Merseyrail system in the late 60s has a burrowing junction immediately south of the Northern Line Central Station that emerged at Edge Hill via the old disused tunnel on the north side of the station. An intermediate underground station was planned near to the University/Cathedrals but would have been quiet expensive to do. In the end the line was not built but the burrowing junction tunnels were provided off the Northern Line to allow the line to be built in future. I have heard little of doing this line since.

The idea of this line was to run an outer suburban service out to Broad Green and then split two ways - north and south - along the old Cheshire Lines trackbed. Southwards the line would have gone through Gatacre to Hunts Cross and so back to Liverpool. Northwards the line would have passed through Knotty Ash, Norris Green and back onto the Ormskirk or Kirkby lines at Walton, then into Liverpool. There was also the prospect of some local services such as to St Helens being diverted to run into these tunnels.

I think the junctions at Broad Green may have been stymied by the later building of the M62 extension......

Satellite view on Google makes a lot of that look still possible, though of course, crayons can go where railways cannot!

 

[driver_m]

Not sure where that information has come from. The loop and link project went smoothly, perhaps you're thinking of the Newcastle metro project which was a same era conception and was more complicated. The cancellation of the rest of the Merseytravel network was part of the same issue that affected a lot of other things at that time, which was the global economy and knock on issues of what was happening with oil prices at this time. The economy was decimated, and so anything that could be cancelled was cancelled. Even in London!

I agree, the Ordsall Chord hasn't helped one jot. To make matters worse, I can't think of anything it has even improved.

If network rail were so concerned about Manchester airport bound TPEx trains crossing the throat of Piccadilly, the answer was simple - don't run them to the airport! Trains already on that path could easily do so instead, such as the Chester train (which ATW wanted anyway, and have been made to wait to get one).

Now we have trains interfering with Victoria services, plus extra congestion going through Oxford road. And people making inappropriate connections. (Probably only to find their hourly train from victoria to the airport is delayed or cancelled!)

Makes me wonder if creating bigger and bigger problems "requiring" more and more spend for bigger and bigger interventions is intentional.

Having sat many a time watching the old TPE services trundle across the throat going from Liverpool to Scarborough whilst another 4 or 5 of my colleagues sit and watched, (or on one occasion 6!), I would argue that your assertion of the Ordsall Curve being worse than before, is totally and utterly wrong.

 

[The_Engineer]

See for yourself the work that's been going on at Lime Street - hats off to Network Rail!
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1007628351987765253

 

[Camden]

Having sat many a time watching the old TPE services trundle across the throat going from Liverpool to Scarborough whilst another 4 or 5 of my colleagues sit and watched, (or on one occasion 6!), I would argue that your assertion of the Ordsall Curve being worse than before, is totally and utterly wrong.

And which part of the chord does the Liverpool to Leeds via Victoria need to use?... Any passive argument that the chord was necessary even to free up platform space for it is revealed as bogus by the introduction of the absurd Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport via Victoria and the curve, adding not just additional challenge into Victoria for normal services but also consuming an airport path from oxford road which could have come from the West. Two TPEx Liverpool via Victoria could have been made to happen at any time.

Rather than being defensive about waste in Manchester, since this is a discussion about Liverpool lime Street and its available services perhaps you could stick to things from that angle.

 

[Camden]

See for yourself the work that's been going on at Lime Street - hats of the Network Rail!
https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1007628351987765253

What activity will I see tweeted about if I log on at 10pm?

 

[driver_m]

And which part of the chord does the Liverpool to Leeds via Victoria need to use?... Any passive argument that the chord was necessary even to free up platform space for it is revealed as bogus by the introduction of the absurd Middlesbrough to Manchester Airport via Victoria and the curve, adding not just additional challenge into Victoria for normal services but also consuming an airport path from oxford road which could have come from the West. Two TPEx Liverpool via Victoria could have been made to happen at any time.

Rather than being defensive about waste in Manchester, since this is a discussion about Liverpool lime Street and its available services perhaps you could stick to things from that angle.

In other words, shut up?
Even though YOU brought up the point in the first place? I suggest YOU stick to the remodelling.

 

[The_Engineer]

What activity will I see tweeted about if I log on at 10pm?

If you had actually WATCHED the video before making your factitious remark, you would have seen clearly work taking place day and night. See the earlier post about roadworks.... Classic own-goal

 

[Camden]

I'm staying in the city this weekend and have been all week. They must be working some funny patterns for me to have missed this hubbub each and every time...

How many people are there working on site at any one time? 200?... Or much fewer than 200?...

 

[driver_m]

I'm staying in the city this weekend and have been all week. They must be working some funny patterns for me to have missed this hubbub each and every time...

How many people are there working on site at any one time? 200?... Or much fewer than 200?...

So all that drilling, digging and those ballast/spoil trains I've seen coming in and out have been a figment of the imagination then? There's plenty of people knocking about. I've actually got the benefit of being there, but hey, The_engineer and myself are obviously talking nonsense .

 

[childwallblues]

Spot on Driver M. Perhaps Camden should take a trip from Platform 1/2 to see wh

 

[Camden]

I repeat

How many people are there working on site at any one time? 200?... Or much fewer than 200?...

Of course there is work going on. Why would the station be closed otherwise.

My question relates to the level of manpower being deployed. Whether work is being carried out with full gusto 24 hours a day to get to the earliest completion date possible. Answering the question regarding the number of people working on site at any one time should give a fair indicator. Is it 200, or is it much fewer than 200?

 

[childwallblues]

Surely you should be asking these questions of Network Rail not us poor locals who have no access to the site.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is there anything going on at the Edge Hill end, and through to South Parkway?
There's all that OHLE kit in the cutting to replace too at some point, plus bringing the new crossovers into use.

 

[Camden]

Surely you should be asking these questions of Network Rail not us poor locals who have no access to the site.

I could have a go at FOI-ing the details, but assuming it is answered (and some commercial sensitivity reason isn't given as to why not) it would be an observation after the fact. The central theme of this, from my perspective, is an overall question as to the value which has been placed on the impact of this, primarily thinking about the severe and shockingly poor level of service going on to support people during this time.

If there were two 319s an hour from Lime Street to Manchester, and they ran, it would be bare minimum but it would just about suffice. If there was a 319 and a TPEx per hour, it would be bare minimum, but it would suffice. And if it sufficed I wouldn't be looking at the amount of time the station is being closed for, versus the number of people / lack of activity I see when I pass through the station, and thinking "does anyone high up value this local economy or bothered about the people affected at all?"

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm not sure if I understand your point. The videos show the constant work being done at Lime Street, it's not like abandoned housing conversions with scaffolding up for years without anybody ever returning.

Work is being done, new platforms have been installed, what's the issue?

 

[driver_m]

Is there anything going on at the Edge Hill end, and through to South Parkway?
There's all that OHLE kit in the cutting to replace too at some point, plus bringing the new crossovers into use.

Not doing anything on the South Parkway bit as it's still open to traffic as far as Edge Hill. Probably just doing Saturday night work.

 

[Chester1]

I'm not sure if I understand your point. The videos show the constant work being done at Lime Street, it's not like abandoned housing conversions with scaffolding up for years without anybody ever returning.

Work is being done, new platforms have been installed, what's the issue?

It seems impossible to have a thread about projects in the Liverpool area without someone whinging about an aspect of it... Its clearly a significant investment and will boost capacity by 3tph, which is worth 2 months disruption. I suspect platform lengths at smaller stations are a major reason why the capacity of services that are running is low.

 

[The_Engineer]

They are going at it today too...…

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1008007702734344192

Can anyone tell me what the sleeper with chequer-plate is for in the newly installed track??

 

[Joseph_Locke]

They are going at it today too...…

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLIV/status/1008007702734344192

Can anyone tell me what the sleeper with chequer-plate is for in the newly installed track??

It's a box-section "hollow sleeper", intended to allow LV and signalling cables to cross the track safely, with reduced risk of them being snapped and severed by the pway oiks.

 

[Ploughman]

It's a box-section "hollow sleeper", intended to allow LV and signalling cables to cross the track safely, with reduced risk of them being snapped and severed by the pway oiks.

I was always under the impression that CCE's Dept stood for Cable Cutting Experts.

 

[Gareth]

Anyone know what the capacity is of Lime Street? I know it'll increase by 3tph but what is the grand figure?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Before the recent upgrade started (ie after the Huyton 4-track upgrade) Lime St operated at 15tph, maybe slightly more in some hours (2nd Euston etc).
That's 7 via Huyton and 8 via Allerton. 7 of these were 319s before the timetable change.
I don't know how near the limit that was.
Plus ECS and some freight east of Edge Hill of course.
Downstairs the single track Merseyrail Wirral Line loop handles 12-14tph all day.

 

[Gareth]

Was wondering because the station is slated to get several new services in the near-medium future...

- Chester via Halton Curve later this year
- Northern Connect to Bradford Interchange
- Scotland (only a few a day as a curtain opener)
- Second Halton Curve service (2tph to Shrewsbury, one extended to Cardiff)
- Second London service by 2026

So that's an extra 5tph bringing the totally up to 20tph, a 33% increase. I'm wondering if that's the max capacity or if yet more services could be added in the future without further work.

 

[fowler9]

After the new timetable came in Lime Street to Allerton lost one train per hour as they stopped the Parkway to Preston service. that makes it seven each to Huyton and Allerton. I think a lot of this work will increase the flow from Lime Street to Edge Hill. Can't remember the last time I got a clear run through on the way in to Lime Street.

 

[B&I]

The airport bound TPEs crossed in two stages - on the way in and on the way out, so weren't so bad. The main problem was the crossing of the entire throat in one go by ... the Liverpool TPEs.

But the Ordsall Chord has nothing whatsoever to do with Liverpool services. They could have been (and were) diverted via Victoria without the chord being built. The Chord is all to do with the Manchester Airport tail wagging the Entire Railway System of the North of England dog

 

[B&I]

It seems impossible to have a thread about projects in the Liverpool area without someone whinging about an aspect of it... Its clearly a significant investment and will boost capacity by 3tph, which is worth 2 months disruption. I suspect platform lengths at smaller stations are a major reason why the capacity of services that are running is low.

And it seems impossible for anyone who lives in Liverpool, or uses rail services through it, to raise any question about the sensibleness of decisions being made in relation to it without being accused of 'whinging', followed by the thread being locked as soon as anyone suggests any improvement to services.

This of course is not peculiar to Liverpool, as the status quo taliban can be relied on to attack anyone on here who challenges any aspect of how the railways currently operate, but there seems to be a particular edge to comments, and to moderators' trigger fingers, whenever the issues are raised on the banks of the Mersey.

That's not to mention a good old bout of disputing what people who were actually present trying to catch a train somewhere saw with their own eyes, another favourite tactic on this forum. I haven't been through Lime Street much for the last few weeks, mostly because the pathetic service even when the station has been open has been conoletely useless to me, and I would defer to Camden on the basis of what s/he has seen, but when I passed through at 6 pm on Friday there were no visible signs of anyone doing any work at all from the buffer stops out to Edge Hill (I walked as far as I could round the station whule waiting for my train to see what I coild see ot hear). Can anyone on here explain why, with a majir station closed for their convenience, the people charge with doing the work are bot actually doing any ?

This is not a couple of months of disruption. This is close to a couple of years of various degrees of disruption. Yes, there will be some (modest and long overdue) improvements at the end of it. But why does the usual collective defence system swing into action here when it is questionned whether it really has to take this long ? Everybody on here usually kniws everything. Why is no-one coming forward with an explanation why this work is taking so long ?

PS how does the short length of platforms at intermediate stations explain why Northern can't run more than 1 4 car class 319 per hour, and why TPE can't run any 3 car class 185s ? Do the platforms shorten for part of each hour ? Perhaps people in Liverpool would feel less aggrieved all the time if people outside Liverpool stopped coming off with such utter rubbish in an attempt to explain why the city is so poorly served by the railway industry.

 

[driver_m]

But the Ordsall Chord has nothing whatsoever to do with Liverpool services. They could have been (and were) diverted via Victoria without the chord being built. The Chord is all to do with the Manchester Airport tail wagging the Entire Railway System of the North of England dog

It does. Both the services that caused the main trouble at Manchester were Liverpool services. However a number also had to cross over two sets of lines which the curve has eliminated and potentially opened up more services to/from the region. Such as the ATW Airport services which call at Earlestown and NLW which now have more ability to be pathed because South Manchester services can be moved off the slows at Picc. You'd be very unhappy if they'd just terminated the services at Manchester instead.

 

[Chester1]

And it seems impossible for anyone who lives in Liverpool, or uses rail services through it, to raise any question about the sensibleness of decisions being made in relation to it without being accused of 'whinging', followed by the thread being locked as soon as anyone suggests any improvement to services.

This of course is not peculiar to Liverpool, as the status quo taliban can be relied on to attack anyone on here who challenges any aspect of how the railways currently operate, but there seems to be a particular edge to comments, and to moderators' trigger fingers, whenever the issues are raised on the banks of the Mersey.

That's not to mention a good old bout of disputing what people who were actually present trying to catch a train somewhere saw with their own eyes, another favourite tactic on this forum. I haven't been through Lime Street much for the last few weeks, mostly because the pathetic service even when the station has been open has been conoletely useless to me, and I would defer to Camden on the basis of what s/he has seen, but when I passed through at 6 pm on Friday there were no visible signs of anyone doing any work at all from the buffer stops out to Edge Hill (I walked as far as I could round the station whule waiting for my train to see what I coild see ot hear). Can anyone on here explain why, with a majir station closed for their convenience, the people charge with doing the work are bot actually doing any ?

This is not a couple of months of disruption. This is close to a couple of years of various degrees of disruption. Yes, there will be some (modest and long overdue) improvements at the end of it. But why does the usual collective defence system swing into action here when it is questionned whether it really has to take this long ? Everybody on here usually kniws everything. Why is no-one coming forward with an explanation why this work is taking so long ?

PS how does the short length of platforms at intermediate stations explain why Northern can't run more than 1 4 car class 319 per hour, and why TPE can't run any 3 car class 185s ? Do the platforms shorten for part of each hour ? Perhaps people in Liverpool would feel less aggrieved all the time if people outside Liverpool stopped coming off with such utter rubbish in an attempt to explain why the city is so poorly served by the railway industry.

I know the whinging scouser argument is often used unfairly but this thread does show plenty of people will whinge about lack of investment outside London and then complain about temorary disruption caused by significant infrastructure upgrades. The Lime Street upgrade is similar to the Waterloo upgrade that has also been very disruptive. Moving multiple platforms, points and signals will always be a tricky and slow proccess. TPE can't opperate into Lime Street because there are too few platforms available for local and long distance services so the decision was made to run local stopping services and make long distance passengers change onto Merseyrail at South Parkway. I don't know the platform lengths but I would be extremely surprised if all or even most are 160m+. At a guess id say 2 x 323s would be possible but thats only a guess as a passenger on the route and Northern is in no position to do the extra driver training required.