Theresa May blames local councils for collapse of bus services despite huge government budget cuts

[Teflon Lettuce]

No. Its not simply how much tax we want to pay, but where (in every sense) we want to benefit. Why does the Treasury value a Prisoner (ie a major criminal) higher than a cancer patient? Why are London's schoolchildren deserving of £1300 a year more than the rest of the UK?

or... to put it another way, why is a pensioner with a good, gold plated pension entitled to free bus travel when a single mother with 3 young children scraping by on benefit is entitled to absolutely no help with bus fares?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This thread is in danger of sinking into the usual round robin arguments about concessionary passes... but who is to blame for the lack of funding of bus services... that was the original question...

Did you honestly expect anything but the "usual round robin" described arguments to surface upon this thread. I have contented myself in just watching the various postings being expressed.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Did you honestly expect anything but the "usual round robin" described arguments to surface upon this thread. I have contented myself in just watching the various postings being expressed.

no not really... and it's no surprise to see the same arguments come from the same members... and of course the same pet remedies... just surprised we haven't had "they do it much better in {insert name of european country} why don't we do the same" posts yet.....

 

[Dai Corner]

or... to put it another way, why is a pensioner with a good, gold plated pension entitled to free bus travel when a single mother with 3 young children scraping by on benefit is entitled to absolutely no help with bus fares?

Though the tax Mr Goldplatedpension pays probably covers Ms Singlemum's benefits and he only used his bus pass once, having been annoyed by her kids screaming and vowing 'never again'

But seriously, benefits (in the widest sense) should be targeted at those who need them most.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Though the tax Mr Goldplatedpension pays probably covers Ms Singlemum's benefits and he only used his bus pass once, having been annoyed by her kids screaming and vowing 'never again'

But seriously, benefits (in the widest sense) should be targeted at those who need them most.

Actually, years ago Bedfordshire had a scheme that gave 1/2 fare travel to those on Income Support or Unemployment Benefit {as it was then}, and a concessionary fares scheme where holders paid an annual fee for the pass and a flat fare per journey {for many years fixed at £5/ annum 20p/jny}
then the councils were forced to offer free travel to concessionary pass holders and guess what.... to afford the scheme they had to scrap the scheme for the unemployed/ benefits claimants.... says it all about any governments priorities really....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Though the tax Mr Goldplatedpension pays probably covers Ms Singlemum's benefits and he only used his bus pass once, having been annoyed by her kids screaming and vowing 'never again'

But seriously, benefits (in the widest sense) should be targeted at those who need them most.

Why do I feel that I am being made the usual target of being cited as "Mr Goldplatedpension"?.....

Does no one ever consider that people who wish to enjoy a good pension have paid in the maximum allowable employees contribution for most of their working life. "Reaping and sowing" suddenly spring to mind. We are both in our mid 70s and live about two miles away from the nearest bus stop and the nearest railway station, so the ENCTS passes are no use whatsoever to home area use.

 

[Dentonian]

Why do I feel that I am being made the usual target of being cited as "Mr Goldplatedpension"?.....

Does no one ever consider that people who wish to enjoy a good pension have paid in the maximum allowable employees contribution for most of their working life. "Reaping and sowing" suddenly spring to mind. We are both in our mid 70s and live about two miles away from the nearest bus stop and the nearest railway station, so the ENCTS passes are no use whatsoever to home area use.

Depends what is meant by "Gold plated" of course. Not to mention how long you are expected to live actively after retirement.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Why do I feel that I am being made the usual target of being cited as "Mr Goldplatedpension"?.....

Does no one ever consider that people who wish to enjoy a good pension have paid in the maximum allowable employees contribution for most of their working life. "Reaping and sowing" suddenly spring to mind. We are both in our mid 70s and live about two miles away from the nearest bus stop and the nearest railway station, so the ENCTS passes are no use whatsoever to home area use.

well I for one didn't know you had a gold plated pension... nor do I begrudge you that... but surely you can see the argument that if you can afford to pay you should... the "I've paid my taxes all my life" argument doesn't really work does it? why is it ok for the government, and by extension of the argument cos I pay taxes me, pay to subsidise you going out for a jolly on the bus {or even go to work} when there are people who, through no fault of their own, are on the breadline and can't afford bus fares? Believe it or not, there are people in the UK that have to pay top whack for their food purely because they can't afford the bus fare to the nearest supermarket... or can't help themselves out of their situation because they can't afford the bus fare across town to an interview for a good well-paying job

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Depends what is meant by "Gold plated" of course. Not to mention how long you are expected to live actively after retirement.

I could have added the fact that besides my company pension, I also took to opportunity to purchase private pensions, in order to supplement the proceeds of the company pension for very many years.

I am currently in my ninth year of retirement and despite suffering a stroke in July 2012 from which I am recovered, my good lady wife and I enjoy life to the full and hope to do so for many years to come.

 

[Dentonian]

Actually, years ago Bedfordshire had a scheme that gave 1/2 fare travel to those on Income Support or Unemployment Benefit {as it was then}, and a concessionary fares scheme where holders paid an annual fee for the pass and a flat fare per journey {for many years fixed at £5/ annum 20p/jny}
then the councils were forced to offer free travel to concessionary pass holders and guess what.... to afford the scheme they had to scrap the scheme for the unemployed/ benefits claimants.... says it all about any governments priorities really....

The real problem here is taking away what was promised as a "life long" free service. I think you might have hinted at a partial solution and that is to keep the "free at the point of use" element and indeed standardise its period of validity, but charge an annual fee (maybe £100 is reasonable if the period of validity allows GP visits to be achieved without paying full Adult fares). Oh! and two more things; It was concieved as a Free BUS pass. It should NOT be valid for travel on any other form of public transport, unless a rail station is considerably closer to the passholder's home than a bus stop. And it should be valid from the same age wherever in the UK you are ie. 67 if that is official retirement age.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The real problem here is taking away what was promised as a "life long" free service. I think you might have hinted at a partial solution and that is to keep the "free at the point of use" element and indeed standardise its period of validity, but charge an annual fee (maybe £100 is reasonable if the period of validity allows GP visits to be achieved without paying full Adult fares). Oh! and two more things; It was concieved as a Free BUS pass. It should NOT be valid for travel on any other form of public transport, unless a rail station is considerably closer to the passholder's home than a bus stop. And it should be valid from the same age wherever in the UK you are ie. 67 if that is official retirement age.

and, I'm sorry to say, that is where the problem lays... at Gordon Brown's feet... it was introduced as an election bribe with no thought as to how it would be funded... once something is given for "free" then it is very hard to take it away again...same as winter fuel payments which are renowned for being abused by middle-income pensioners to pay for their flights out to their villas on the Costas.
My personal opinion is that ALL benefits, whether cash or kind, {apart from the Basic State Pension} should be means tested. Simple as.... and I speak as someone who has always been a socialist

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But surely you can see the argument that if you can afford to pay you should... the "I've paid my taxes all my life" argument doesn't really work does it?

I honestly would say that I would never use such a standpoint opinion as "I've paid my taxes all my life" in thread discussions as this is what any honest person would expect to do, but I will admit that there are those who do follow the "Creed of Wealth Concealment".

Hands up all those who believe in Death Duties.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I honestly would say that I would never use such a standpoint opinion as "I've paid my taxes all my life" in thread discussions as this is what any honest person would expect to do, but I will admit that there are those who do follow the "Creed of Wealth Concealment".

Hands up all those who believe in Death Duties.

sorry, I didn't mean you personally, but as a coach driver eavesdropping on conversations it is an argument I have heard time and again from wealthy pensioners who can afford to go on 5 or 6 coach holidays a year at £700-800 a go... it seems to have supplanted the "I fought a war for the likes of you" over the last 20 yrs

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

sorry, I didn't mean you personally, but as a coach driver eavesdropping on conversations it is an argument I have heard time and again from wealthy pensioners who can afford to go on 5 or 6 coach holidays a year at £700-800 a go... it seems to have supplanted the "I fought a war for the likes of you" over the last 20 yrs

From personal knowledge of some of the people you describe, the latest expensive holiday jaunts are those so often advertised on TV by Viking River Cruises, but those holidays are far in excess of the £700/800 cost that you mention in regard to coach holidays.

My good lady wife and I are great believers in enjoying holidays in Britain, with the Cornwall area last Autumn and Eastbourne a couple of months ago being our last two holidays.

 

[radamfi]

no not really... and it's no surprise to see the same arguments come from the same members... and of course the same pet remedies... just surprised we haven't had "they do it much better in {insert name of european country} why don't we do the same" posts yet.....

You don't like "continental practice" but presumably you would be fine with continental levels of funding for local buses? I assume not at the cost of binning deregulation.

 

[Dai Corner]

sorry, I didn't mean you personally, but as a coach driver eavesdropping on conversations it is an argument I have heard time and again from wealthy pensioners who can afford to go on 5 or 6 coach holidays a year at £700-800 a go... it seems to have supplanted the "I fought a war for the likes of you" over the last 20 yrs

And they probably will pay (income) tax all their lives (as opposed to just their working lives). A generation ago I think this was unusual. With the mortgage paid off and State Pension meeting the household bills any private pension can be spent on things like holidays. "No point in saving it, they'll have it off you for your care home bill"

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You don't like "continental practice" but presumably you would be fine with continental levels of funding for local buses? I assume not at the cost of binning deregulation.

where on earth did I say any of that? but it IS true that whenever there is a discussion on what to do to cure this country's bus service problems continental practice gets given as a panacea at some point... but answer this.... if we can't convince Government, whether national or local, to fund the system we have now properly where is this magic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow going to come from to install a continental system? Ergo continental practice is a non-starter!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

And they probably will pay (income) tax all their lives (as opposed to just their working lives). A generation ago I think this was unusual. With the mortgage paid off and State Pension meeting the household bills any private pension can be spent on things like holidays. "No point in saving it, they'll have it off you for your care home bill"

I think your missing my point... the "I've had a good life, with a well paid job, so I'm entitled to all my freebies... and sod it if you can't make ends meet" argument is a way of defending the indefensible attitudes that some wealthier retirees use... and is no more valid than the "I fought a war for you" that the previous generation used 20yrs ago... after all the same people complain about youngsters having been brought up with a sense of entitlement.. now answer me this... where did the youngsters learn that attitude from?

 

[radamfi]

where on earth did I say any of that? but it IS true that whenever there is a discussion on what to do to cure this country's bus service problems continental practice gets given as a panacea at some point... but answer this.... if we can't convince Government, whether national or local, to fund the system we have now properly where is this magic pot of gold at the end of the rainbow going to come from to install a continental system? Ergo continental practice is a non-starter!

You said

at the end of the day continental practice was tried in the 60's and early 70's... perhaps you might like to research what the results of those experiments had on the British bus industry...

I don't expect Britain to fund public transport properly and I gave up on British transport some years ago as a result. But this whole thread is complaining about a lack of funding, so I was merely pointing out that there are places that do fund transport properly, and they happen to be other European countries.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You said



I don't expect Britain to fund public transport properly and I gave up on British transport some years ago as a result. But this whole thread is complaining about a lack of funding, so I was merely pointing out that there are places that do fund transport properly, and they happen to be other European countries.

oh I see.. so you are quoting me from a completely different thread where, yet again, you said "continental practice" will cure the UK industry's ills... rather proves my point about the panacea argument doesn't it?

 

[Typhoon]

I think you might have hinted at a partial solution and that is to keep the "free at the point of use" element and indeed standardise its period of validity, but charge an annual fee (maybe £100 is reasonable if the period of validity allows GP visits to be achieved without paying full Adult fares).

As an 'older person' I cannot understand why my bus pass is free, while my mother, who has a blue badge because of her limited mobility, has to pay for it (as well as her volunteer transport). £100 seems fine (possibly linked to CPI to avoid big rises the year after an election but no rise the year before).

It should NOT be valid for travel on any other form of public transport, unless a rail station is considerably closer to the passholder's home than a bus stop. And it should be valid from the same age wherever in the UK you are ie. 67 if that is official retirement age.

With devolution, I suspect that argument is lost.
​

Hands up all those who believe in Death Duties.

To be honest, If its a choice of being taxed when you are dead or when you are alive, I know which I would choose. I don't think I would notice the former.
Also, the dead don't vote (well, not often)

 

[radamfi]

oh I see.. so you are quoting me from a completely different thread where, yet again, you said "continental practice" will cure the UK industry's ills... rather proves my point about the panacea argument doesn't it?

Do you want buses to be well funded?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Do you want buses to be well funded?

of course I do... but what makes you think that if they were nationalised/ municipalised they would automatically become well funded or well run?

Truth is we had 50 odd years of municipal/ nationalised operation... there were some bright spots of companies/ municipalities that were well run and innovative... but the truth is many were absolutely dire...with most being somewhere in the middle... it can't be any co-incidence that there were so many casualties amongst the municipals after deregulation can it?

And of course it is true that since dereg/ privatisation there are some bright spots, many more dire spots... and most somewhere in the middle..

And of course, in any given country, no matter what system is in place, the situation is the same. Some very good, some very bad... most in the middle somewhere.

Therefore the argument I make stands.... moving to continental practice... or any other model you can come up with... will never cure the industry's ills!

 

[radamfi]

of course I do... but what makes you think that if they were nationalised/ municipalised they would automatically become well funded or well run?

It doesn't. But there is ample evidence from outside the UK that well funded local public transport can and does exist. Many areas of Europe have privatised their bus networks but still receive good funding.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It doesn't. But there is ample evidence from outside the UK that well funded local public transport can and does exist. Many areas of Europe have privatised their bus networks but still receive good funding.

but those same countries properly funded their bus services before they were privatised! In any case, have you ever asked yourself why those countries have public transport that works?

take Switzerland for instance... people always refer to the Swiss system pointing out that it works like clockwork... but why does it? because there's no congestion in the cities... is that because of their excellent public transport.... well actually... no... the reason why there's no congestion on the city streets is because the intercity roads and motorways don't go through the cities... they either go round or under therefore freeing the streets of congestion... can you imagine how much it would cost to burrow the strategic road network under the likes of Birmingham? Manchester? London even? Of course Swiss cities are a lot smaller than our cities...

And as for the old chestnut that public transport use is higher, and car use lower, on the continent... really? have you ever been to Brussels? congestion everywhere and the buses and trams running 1/4 full at best... or Paris? It took me an hr to do 1 mile in my coach.... and it wasn't a jam of rammed full buses I was stuck in!

 

[Dai Corner]

It doesn't. But there is ample evidence from outside the UK that well funded local public transport can and does exist. Many areas of Europe have privatised their bus networks but still receive good funding.

But as has been pointed out before in this thread, buses outside the big cities are not something the British public are interested in having their taxes spent on. No changes in ownership or operations is likely to change that.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

But as has been pointed out before in this thread, buses outside the big cities are not something the British public are interested in having their taxes spent on. No changes in ownership or operations is likely to change that.

or to put it another way... London tried adopting some continental practise... bendy buses introduced/ RM's withdrawn... election time came and a certain idiot stood on the platform of scrapping the bendy buses and re-introducing RM's and the idiot won the election!

 

[Dai Corner]

or to put it another way... London tried adopting some continental practise... bendy buses introduced/ RM's withdrawn... election time came and a certain idiot stood on the platform of scrapping the bendy buses and re-introducing RM's and the idiot won the election!

And then didn't the next guy cancel further orders of the buses his predecessor introduced?

Substantial public funding => political input => situations like this.

 

[Typhoon]

And they probably will pay (income) tax all their lives (as opposed to just their working lives). A generation ago I think this was unusual. With the mortgage paid off and State Pension meeting the household bills any private pension can be spent on things like holidays.

Besides the obvious, there are several reasons why older people go on holidays:-
1. It can be cheaper than living at home. (At the right time of year, holidays can cost a pittance. Equally, winter holidays can cut energy costs.)
2. They can see a time when they will no longer be able to go on holiday so go while they can. (Friends become housebound, inactive, immobile.)
3. They have to. There are older people who downsize to park homes only to find they are eleven month residences.
4. Company. If you live alone, holidays can be a way of forced companionship.
5. Something to do with their time.

This is not to negate the message quoted above because many older people do go for enjoyment and as a 'reward' for their working lives (encouraged by advertising and maturing insurance policies) but it is by no means the only reason why, and for some, they have to make sacrifices to take these holidays.

I have used the message (#76) to hang my argument on, not to argue against it.

 

[radamfi]

but those same countries properly funded their bus services before they were privatised! In any case, have you ever asked yourself why those countries have public transport that works?

Yes, they were also properly funded before privatisation and funding continued after privatisation. Funding in Britain was quite lavish in some areas before deregulation (e.g. People's Republic of South Yorkshire) but Britain has used privatisation and deregulation to remove most of that funding.

take Switzerland for instance... people always refer to the Swiss system pointing out that it works like clockwork... but why does it? because there's no congestion in the cities... is that because of their excellent public transport.... well actually... no... the reason why there's no congestion on the city streets is because the intercity roads and motorways don't go through the cities... they either go round or under therefore freeing the streets of congestion... can you imagine how much it would cost to burrow the strategic road network under the likes of Birmingham? Manchester? London even? Of course Swiss cities are a lot smaller than our cities...

Birmingham, London and Manchester all have motorway rings around them (to be pedantic, the M25 is not a complete ring as either end is joined by the A282 and the M60 has traffic signals at J18) whereas I can't see a complete ring around Zurich, the biggest Swiss city. Birmingham in particular is quite famous for being car-centric with its ring roads and several dual-carriageway arterial routes. The bigger the city the easier it should be to offer underground railways and light rail systems etc. so Switzerland does remarkably well despite only having small cities. Zurich has an S-Bahn covering some areas but mostly it relies on street running trams and trolleybuses.

And as for the old chestnut that public transport use is higher, and car use lower, on the continent... really? have you ever been to Brussels? congestion everywhere and the buses and trams running 1/4 full at best... or Paris? It took me an hr to do 1 mile in my coach.... and it wasn't a jam of rammed full buses I was stuck in!

I have never recommended Brussels or Paris as good examples. Whilst Paris proper (zones 1-2) is quite comprehensively served by the Metro so buses are not that important, I don't rate buses in the suburbs of Paris at all and I would say outer London is much better. Mainland Europe is not uniform and there are differences in approach between different countries and even within the same country. But why focus on the negative when there are so many good examples?

I also see this on forums where people debate cycling. Someone posts that they visited a particular Dutch town and there weren't that many cycle paths and they had to share the road with cars quite a lot. They conclude that Dutch cycling sucks and we might as well continue as we are in Britain. The Netherlands is *on average* way better than the UK at cycling, but some cities are better than others.

Proper funding is no absolute guarantee of success, but without funding it is much more difficult to achieve satisfactory results.