Theresa May blames local councils for collapse of bus services despite huge government budget cuts

[Teflon Lettuce]

Proper funding is no absolute guarantee of success, but without funding it is much more difficult to achieve satisfactory results.

exactly my point... you could throw billions at the problem... but if the same incompetents are in charge in any given area no amount of money, or structure, would improve matters....

and the other problem is, so many advocates of continental practice seem to believe it can be done for the same money as we spend now... you only have to look at London to see that that is an absolute nonsense!

Anyway, seeing as this thread is a debate about whose to blame for the lack of funding, and not about how services should be funded I'm going to stop debating this point now...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

exactly my point... you could throw billions at the problem... but if the same incompetents are in charge in any given area no amount of money, or structure, would improve matters....

and the other problem is, so many advocates of continental practice seem to believe it can be done for the same money as we spend now... you only have to look at London to see that that is an absolute nonsense!

Teflon - you are absolutely right

I'd love more investment into local bus services but we've had an election bribe that was barely funded at the start, and hasn't been so for years under both the coalition and Tory administrations. Oh, and the removal of half of BSOG. That, and a commitment not to increase fuel duty meant an immediate rise in bus fares (in comparison to private car costs). Then a weakening of concessionary pass remuneration to operators so the "no worse off" was clearly no longer true.

There's a view that there's some fantastic amount of money to be liberated by not going into the coffers of greedy multinationals (yeah, comrade) and it's rubbish, as the Nexus QBP fiasco illustrated. Operators will need to make money (whether you want it or not) and when you factor in some apparatus to run some franchising scheme, then you've more than spent your margin savings.

Unless additional finance is provided, some aspiration for continental standards is just that - a pipe dream for those who fail to recognise the realities of politics and government spending. What the bus industry doesn't need is another half ar5ed, ill thought out and under resourced concessionary scheme.

I was chatting (whilst impatiently waiting) to my better half's hairdresser, who'd just returned from holiday to Tuscany. She said how much she'd enjoyed it and that they could get the bus that went straight to the station and so they'd gone to Florence, Pisa etc, and how she wished it was like that in Bristol. I asked her would she pay more money in tax to achieve that - she smiled and said no! I asked her what she would pay more tax for - she said the NHS. Yes, it's one person but you know what, it does back up what the surveys and opinion polls say!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Teflon - you are absolutely right

I'd love more investment into local bus services but we've had an election bribe that was barely funded at the start, and hasn't been so for years under both the coalition and Tory administrations. Oh, and the removal of half of BSOG. That, and a commitment not to increase fuel duty meant an immediate rise in bus fares (in comparison to private car costs). Then a weakening of concessionary pass remuneration to operators so the "no worse off" was clearly no longer true.

There's a view that there's some fantastic amount of money to be liberated by not going into the coffers of greedy multinationals (yeah, comrade) and it's rubbish, as the Nexus QBP fiasco illustrated. Operators will need to make money (whether you want it or not) and when you factor in some apparatus to run some franchising scheme, then you've more than spent your margin savings.

Unless additional finance is provided, some aspiration for continental standards is just that - a pipe dream for those who fail to recognise the realities of politics and government spending. What the bus industry doesn't need is another half ar5ed, ill thought out and under resourced concessionary scheme.

I was chatting (whilst impatiently waiting) to my better half's hairdresser, who'd just returned from holiday to Tuscany. She said how much she'd enjoyed it and that they could get the bus that went straight to the station and so they'd gone to Florence, Pisa etc, and how she wished it was like that in Bristol. I asked her would she pay more money in tax to achieve that - she smiled and said no! I asked her what she would pay more tax for - she said the NHS. Yes, it's one person but you know what, it does back up what the surveys and opinion polls say!

I know that, YOU know that, but try telling that to anyone who is just working off of theory! I first entered the industry on D-day {well the day after actually} and I can well remember the high hopes that the money saved over the previous regime would be ploughed back into the industry in a virtuous circle... it wasn't... it was soon found that many companies, having no experience of commercial operations, had got their sums wrong... more money required... any money that WAS saved was used by councils to improve OTHER services they have to provide...since then costs have spiralled whilst support has been slashed... but heigh ho everythings well and good in cloud cuckoo land...

oh and the great example of the PRoSY? well there were already severe rumblings from the electorate over the high rate levy that was made to fund their utopian bus service before D-day IIRC

 

[radamfi]

exactly my point... you could throw billions at the problem... but if the same incompetents are in charge in any given area no amount of money, or structure, would improve matters....

Earlier on you say "of course" you would like more funding for local buses, but when actually presented with the possibility you aren't so keen after all, because of the risk of it not working. I think a lot of people in the industry and on this forum would prefer to have all funding removed, definitely ENCTS and even BSOG, because at least then the bureaucrats wouldn't get any say.

 

[Dai Corner]

Earlier on you say "of course" you would like more funding for local buses, but when actually presented with the possibility you aren't so keen after all, because of the risk of it not working. I think a lot of people in the industry and on this forum would prefer to have all funding removed, definitely ENCTS and even BSOG, because at least then the bureaucrats wouldn't get any say.

I don't think anyone here is against taxpayer funding of buses. Some have said they don't like the strings that come with it or highlighted the absurdities it throws up. Many have been realistic enough to realise the British taxpayer would rather his £ was spent on other things.

 

[radamfi]

Some have said they don't like the strings that come with it or highlighted the absurdities it throws up.

That's the issue, though. If someone is paying for something then it is only reasonable that they get something for the money. It would be unrealistic to expect the government to hand over £x to Stagecoach and say "do whatever you want with the money".

 

[Dai Corner]

That's the issue, though. If someone is paying for something then it is only reasonable that they get something for the money. It would be unrealistic to expect the government to hand over £x to Stagecoach and say "do whatever you want with the money".

Of course. But that doesn't mean operators have to like the current system. The impression I get is that it's (just about) worth complying with the conditions to get the cash.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Of course. But that doesn't mean operators have to like the current system. The impression I get is that it's (just about) worth complying with the conditions to get the cash.

Quite! Operators certainly don't wish to go back to the days of re-regulation and they pull their hair out at some of the ridiculous decisions of PTEs and councils.

However, it's a utterly fatuous point. There isn't going to be any money to achieve these theoretical continental standards.

The issue with ENCTS is that operators have been providing a service for many years. The scheme came in and has massively skewed things so that some routes are no longer viable (minimal passenger growth potential so it simply reduces revenues to the operator) whilst other routes have grown and often need additional resources and for no extra money.

However, the idea that there's somehow some magical margin saving that is going to be ploughed back into continental style bus services - pah! It is interesting that Cornwall Council have entered into partnership, accessed a load of grant money to improve infrastructure etc but have stopped shorted of franchising - why? Because they know that the Tories were just trying to offload any responsibility for bus services.

As the old adage goes, if something seems too good to be true....

 

[Dentonian]

Earlier on you say "of course" you would like more funding for local buses, but when actually presented with the possibility you aren't so keen after all, because of the risk of it not working. I think a lot of people in the industry and on this forum would prefer to have all funding removed, definitely ENCTS and even BSOG, because at least then the bureaucrats wouldn't get any say.

BSOG isn't funding. Its just the Government destroying the English language for propganda purposes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

BSOG isn't funding. Its just the Government destroying the English language for propganda purposes.

For some people, arguing whether BSOG is a grant or a rebate could be down to semantics...

However, ENCTS is not funding. It's a payment for services provided by an business. My employer isn't funding Asda when my other half uses the housekeeping to buy the groceries!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

For some people, arguing whether BSOG is a grant or a rebate could be down to semantics...

However, ENCTS is not funding. It's a payment for services provided by an business. My employer isn't funding Asda when my other half uses the housekeeping to buy the groceries!

and of course with ENCTS the operator isn't allowed to say "it costs x pence to provide this service" they get told "you have to provide the service and we will pay you z pence for the "privilege" of doing so... is it any surprise that it is deeply resented amongst operators?

 

[Dentonian]

For some people, arguing whether BSOG is a grant or a rebate could be down to semantics...

However, ENCTS is not funding. It's a payment for services provided by an business. My employer isn't funding Asda when my other half uses the housekeeping to buy the groceries!

BSOG is not a grant
If I give you £100 to do what you want with and all you have to do is give me £63 back next April 6 then I am subsidising you not the other way round

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

BSOG is not a grant
If I give you £100 to do what you want with and all you have to do is give me £63 back next April 6 then I am subsidising you not the other way round

eh? BSOG not a grant? you do know what BSOG is an acronym for? Bus Service Operators Grant... the clue is in the name!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

eh? BSOG not a grant? you do know what BSOG is an acronym for? Bus Service Operators Grant... the clue is in the name!

Guess my point is we can get het up on semantics on whether it is a grant, a subsidy or a rebate.

The real point is that you have other monies that people like Nexus point to as public funding as if it is some form of subsidy such as ENCTS, scholars passes, tendered routes. That prompts the “we’re paying money, we should be able to dictate things” whereas it is really just a payment for services provided.

It would be like Radamfi’s employer specifying where and what he can spend his wages on!

 

[Dentonian]

eh? BSOG not a grant? you do know what BSOG is an acronym for? Bus Service Operators Grant... the clue is in the name!

I hope you are being sarcastic! Its a deliberate bastardisation by the Whitehall parasite s to try and hide the fact that they are robbing from the poor to subsidize the rich knowing that the knuckle scraping Scum readers and their friends in the road lobby will believe bus passenger s are benefitting.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Guess my point is we can get het up on semantics on whether it is a grant, a subsidy or a rebate.

The real point is that you have other monies that people like Nexus point to as public funding as if it is some form of subsidy such as ENCTS, scholars passes, tendered routes. That prompts the “we’re paying money, we should be able to dictate things” whereas it is really just a payment for services provided.

It would be like Radamfi’s employer specifying where and what he can spend his wages on!

I think an even bigger problem for the industry is that there are those, like Nexus, who want to dictate what will/ will not run, but then begrudge it when operators say "that will cost x pounds, stump up"

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I hope you are being sarcastic! Its a deliberate bastardisation by the Whitehall parasite s to try and hide the fact that they are robbing from the poor to subsidize the rich knowing that the knuckle scraping Scum readers and their friends in the road lobby will believe bus passenger s are benefitting.

actually, the reason BSOG was renamed from Fuel Duty Rebate is because "rebate" gives the recipient a sense of entitlement, whereas if it is called a "grant" then it is made clear to the recipient that it in the gift of the payer to withdraw said grant anytime they wish....

I wonder, in fact, how many litres of diesel were claimed for last year on BSOG {yes I know it's a mileage based calculation, but it is meant to extrapolate an average mpg} and how much the treasury would lose if operators paid 0% duty?

 

[Dai Corner]

I hope you are being sarcastic! Its a deliberate bastardisation by the Whitehall parasite s to try and hide the fact that they are robbing from the poor to subsidize the rich knowing that the knuckle scraping Scum readers and their friends in the road lobby will believe bus passenger s are benefitting.

Could you clarify who 'the poor' and 'the rich' are in the above?

 

[Dentonian]

Could you clarify who 'the poor' and 'the rich' are in the above?

Bus passengers are generally poorer than users of other modes especially rail. There is also the looser term of "poor" in political terms rather than just financial. Has anyone seen Owen Jones' column in the Guardian from - I m guessing - yesterday? I think he put hard stats to the argument in financial terms.

 

[Robertj21a]

Bus passengers are generally poorer than users of other modes especially rail. There is also the looser term of "poor" in political terms rather than just financial. Has anyone seen Owen Jones' column in the Guardian from - I m guessing - yesterday? I think he put hard stats to the argument in financial terms.

I doubt you will find many on here who read the Guardian.....

 

[Dentonian]

I doubt you will find many on here who read the Guardian.....

I suspect you are right. I wonder what London papers are the most read on here.

 

[Dai Corner]

I doubt you will find many on here who read the Guardian.....

I doubt many of 'the poor' read the Guardian either, to be honest. Owen Jones is in the top 1% of earners, making over half a million a year from writing about them.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I doubt many of 'the poor' read the Guardian either, to be honest. Owen Jones is in the top 1% of earners, making over half a million a year from writing about them.

are we talking about the same Owen Jones that comes from a middle class family, went to Oxford, talks as though his opinion is the only valid opinion, and has done more to re-inforce establishment's view that the "poor" shouldn't be given a voice than any other single person barring Jeremy Corbyn?

 

[Dentonian]

are we talking about the same Owen Jones that comes from a middle class family, went to Oxford, talks as though his opinion is the only valid opinion, and has done more to re-inforce establishment's view that the "poor" shouldn't be given a voice than any other single person barring Jeremy Corbyn?

are we talking about the same Owen Jones that comes from a middle class family, went to Oxford, talks as though his opinion is the only valid opinion, and has done more to re-inforce establishment's view that the "poor" shouldn't be given a voice than any other single person barring Jeremy Corbyn?

Don't know. I only know that he is the only person with any power in this country who acknowledge s the very existence of adult non motorists outside London.

 

[Dai Corner]

are we talking about the same Owen Jones that comes from a middle class family, went to Oxford, talks as though his opinion is the only valid opinion, and has done more to re-inforce establishment's view that the "poor" shouldn't be given a voice than any other single person barring Jeremy Corbyn?

I was amused to see the other night that he was reduced to doing a 22.30-midnight shift on Sky News, reviewing the papers.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I was amused to see the other night that he was reduced to doing a 22.30-midnight shift on Sky News, reviewing the papers.

He had to look at the Daily Mail? I'm surprised he wasn't the headline news... for sponteneously combusting!

 

[mmh]

I suspect you are right. I wonder what London papers are the most read on here.

That's an interesting thought - I've posted a poll, let's see if it gets many responses...

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/forum-newspaper-readership.166810/

 

[Dentonian]

actually, the reason BSOG was renamed from Fuel Duty Rebate is because "rebate" gives the recipient a sense of entitlement, whereas if it is called a "grant" then it is made clear to the recipient that it in the gift of the payer to withdraw said grant anytime they wish....

I wonder, in fact, how many litres of diesel were claimed for last year on BSOG {yes I know it's a mileage based calculation, but it is meant to extrapolate an average mpg} and how much the treasury would lose if operators paid 0% duty?

Naive question, as doubtless the Operators would keep it as extra profits, but if the reduction in duty (38.5 per litre is it) were used to reduce fares, how many more people would use buses, thus reducing congestion and social exclusion (and in turn, crime)?
Indeed, how much is the bus industry's fuel tax bill? I'll bet it exceeds the £199 million subsidy for services (outside London) even if it doesn't make a dent in ENCTS.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Naive question, as doubtless the Operators would keep it as extra profits, but if the reduction in duty (38.5 per litre is it) were used to reduce fares, how many more people would use buses, thus reducing congestion and social exclusion (and in turn, crime)?
Indeed, how much is the bus industry's fuel tax bill? I'll bet it exceeds the £199 million subsidy for services (outside London) even if it doesn't make a dent in ENCTS.

please, please, please, stop saying subsidy... IF there is any subsidy to commercial services then they are ALL operating illegally under the terms of the Transport Act 1985! BSOG is a reduction in the amount of duty that Local Service operators pay... Concessionary fares, tendered bus payments, school contract payments etc are ALL payments for services rendered. The ONLY subsidy that any bus service ever receives is where, maybe "green" technology buses are bought... and in this case it is a laudible aim... after all there is always a cost penalty for new technologies, meaning the usual path is the rich buy, and then once critical mass of volume of sales is reached, then prices tumble {think microwaves/ VCR's etc...

 

[Dentonian]

please, please, please, stop saying subsidy... IF there is any subsidy to commercial services then they are ALL operating illegally under the terms of the Transport Act 1985! BSOG is a reduction in the amount of duty that Local Service operators pay... Concessionary fares, tendered bus payments, school contract payments etc are ALL payments for services rendered. The ONLY subsidy that any bus service ever receives is where, maybe "green" technology buses are bought... and in this case it is a laudible aim... after all there is always a cost penalty for new technologies, meaning the usual path is the rich buy, and then once critical mass of volume of sales is reached, then prices tumble {think microwaves/ VCR's etc...

Where did I specify *commercial*? I am talking about the total subsidy spent by local authorities in England and Wales (outside Gtr. London) to Operators to run "socially necessary" and School services, secured by competitive tender.