Rolling stock standards - better than before?

[Journeyman]

Is it just me, or are trains far better looked after these days than they once were? They certainly seem to age a lot better.

I grew up on the Waterloo suburban lines, and when I was a kid in the early 80s, these were operated mainly by EPBs that were about thirty years old - and they were utterly rancid. Dirty, uncomfortable, often vandalised, and most of old extremely careworn and old-fashioned looking, with dingy, gloomy interiors. They looked far older than they were, and really didn't make for a pleasant travelling experience.

Fast forward to now, and the same lines are operated by refurbished 455s that are again thirty years old - and they look amazing. When SWT refurbished them about ten years ago, people thought they were new. Since then, they've generally been much better looked after, so vandalism is rare, they're usually clean, and the travelling environment is bright and easily as good as something fresh off the production line.

There's a lot of other rolling stock of similar vintage that again still seems modern. I'm on a 25 year old 365 as I write this, and it's perfectly acceptable. Not cutting edge, maybe, but it's getting on for 25 years old and still seems modern and of reasonable quality. It's not got the grim atmosphere a slam-door Modernisation Plan EMU of similar age had by then (although the better refurbishments were a big improvement).

Any thoughts on this? Let's not get into a debate about ironing boards, though, and anyone seriously suggesting an EPB is fundamentally "better" than a modern train for regular use is going to get a slap.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Rolling stock is now privately owned and is considered a financial asset, so that it can be re-leased to new operators during its working life.
Both ROSCOs and TOCs take considerable care over stock these days, and have much more secure premises than BR did, much of it new.
Graffiti, at least in this country, is at a low level and is cleaned up quickly.
You've only got to go to Paris, Milan or even Zurich to see that other countries have a much more serious graffiti problem, on both trains and infrastructure.
A lot of recent new stock is maintained by the manufacturer, and in the case of IEPs remain owned by them.
So there is every incentive to keep the stock clean and secure for its working life.
Generally trains are refreshed/refurbished more frequently than under BR, partly because of the repeated changes of operator and internal/external branding.

No doubt the costs of all this are reflected in the leasing costs.​

Train interiors also stay nicer if they are cleaned en route, and most TOCs now do this. I don't remember BR ever cleaning a train en route.
The smoking ban also had a major impact on cleanliness. I can't remember when the railway did this, but certainly by 2007.
Train washing is now more efficient, and the increased use of toilet-emptying facilities helps the rail environment.
It's somewhat shocking that HSTs and many Mk3 vehicles have lived 40+ years dumping toilet waste on the track, but they will soon be gone (or converted).
Class 158s are another culprit, but again, are being converted.

 

[Bikeman78]

Is it just me, or are trains far better looked after these days than they once were? They certainly seem to age a lot better.

I grew up on the Waterloo suburban lines, and when I was a kid in the early 80s, these were operated mainly by EPBs that were about thirty years old - and they were utterly rancid. Dirty, uncomfortable, often vandalised, and most of old extremely careworn and old-fashioned looking, with dingy, gloomy interiors. They looked far older than they were, and really didn't make for a pleasant travelling experience.

A lot of the EPBs were refurbished later in the 1980s which was a big improvement. The Selhurst based units that came to Horsham were generally clean and presentable. Most of them moved to Slade Green between 1990 and 1993 to replace unrefurbished ones.

 

[Journeyman]

A lot of the EPBs were refurbished later in the 1980s which was a big improvement. The Selhurst based units that came to Horsham were generally clean and presentable. Most of them moved to Slade Green between 1990 and 1993 to replace unrefurbished ones.

I'd say they were a *slight* improvement. They were a bit brighter and cleaner, but still fundamentally knackered and outdated.

 

[yorksrob]

Any thoughts on this? Let's not get into a debate about ironing boards, though, and anyone seriously suggesting an EPB is fundamentally "better" than a modern train for regular use is going to get a slap.

Slap away because I found EPB's fundamentally comfortable and far nicer than a 455 with its plastic pygmy seats.

Whilst the unrefurbished ones had a bit of a fusty aroma, did you never travel on a facelifted one (with the flourescent lighting) ? Their interiors were quite bright and pleasant, but not gaudy (no bright orange formica walls, for example).

 

[Journeyman]

Rolling stock is now privately owned and is considered a financial asset, so that it can be re-leased to new operators during its working life.
Both ROSCOs and TOCs take considerable care over stock these days, and have much more secure premises than BR did, much of it new.
Graffiti, at least in this country, is at a low level and is cleaned up quickly.
You've only got to go to Paris, Milan or even Zurich to see that other countries have a much more serious graffiti problem, on both trains and infrastructure.
A lot of recent new stock is maintained by the manufacturer, and in the case of IEPs remain owned by them.
So there is every incentive to keep the stock clean and secure for its working life.
Generally trains are refreshed/refurbished more frequently than under BR, partly because of the repeated changes of operator and internal/external branding.

No doubt the costs of all this are reflected in the leasing costs.​

Train interiors also stay nicer if they are cleaned en route, and most TOCs now do this. I don't remember BR ever cleaning a train en route.
The smoking ban also had a major impact on cleanliness. I can't remember when the railway did this, but certainly by 2007.
Train washing is now more efficient, and the increased use of toilet-emptying facilities helps the rail environment.
It's somewhat shocking that HSTs and many Mk3 vehicles have lived 40+ years dumping toilet waste on the track, but they will soon be gone (or converted).
Class 158s are another culprit, but again, are being converted.

Yeah, that certainly all makes sense. Gone are the days when a suburban train would be knee-deep in litter by halfway through the afternoon. I think Network SouthEast began to make an effort with carriage washing and litter picking, and it all gradually improved from there.

There's certainly been a change in attitude in terms of looking after assets, certainly ones with much life left in them. The only trains that seem to be a real mess these days are ones with obviously limited lives remaining - I went on a seriously grotty Pacer a couple of days ago.

 

[Journeyman]

Slap away because I found EPB's fundamentally comfortable and far nicer than a 455 with its plastic pygmy seats.

Whilst the unrefurbished ones had a bit of a fusty aroma, did you never travel on a facelifted one (with the flourescent lighting) ? Their interiors were quite bright and pleasant, but not gaudy (no bright orange formica walls, for example).

I agree that the 455s were grim when they had the original seats, but the SWT/SWR refurbished ones were absolutely transformed, and are pretty pleasant to travel in.

I found the refurbished EPBs only a very marginal improvement, and all the people I know who used the EPBs regularly in their final years breathed a huge sigh of relief once they were gone.

 

[Bikeman78]

Slap away because I found EPB's fundamentally comfortable and far nicer than a 455 with its plastic pygmy seats.

Whilst the unrefurbished ones had a bit of a fusty aroma, did you never travel on a facelifted one (with the flourescent lighting) ? Their interiors were quite bright and pleasant, but not gaudy (no bright orange formica walls, for example).

The original 455s weren't very inspiring. The SWT refurbs are a massive improvement.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yeah, that certainly all makes sense. Gone are the days when a suburban train would be knee-deep in litter by halfway through the afternoon. I think Network SouthEast began to make an effort with carriage washing and litter picking, and it all gradually improved from there.

There's certainly been a change in attitude in terms of looking after assets, certainly ones with much life left in them. The only trains that seem to be a real mess these days are ones with obviously limited lives remaining - I went on a seriously grotty Pacer a couple of days ago.

Most of the Northern units around Manchester are grotty. I can't speak for the EMUs around Leeds because I haven't travelled on them in 10 years. Many Pacers and 150s still have the original seat layout. They are a world apart from the refurbished run by Arriva and First around Cardiff and Bristol.

The Moorgate 313s are a disgrace externally. Quite a contrast to the 315s out of Liverpool Street.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that the 455s were grim when they had the original seats, but the SWT/SWR refurbished ones were absolutely transformed, and are pretty pleasant to travel in.

I found the refurbished EPBs only a very marginal improvement, and all the people I know who used the EPBs regularly in their final years breathed a huge sigh of relief once they were gone.

I think that familiarity tends to breed contempt, and rolling stock always looks bad if people cover them in graffiti (which was definitely an issue in the EPB days) and they go for too long before being reupholstered.

I've also travelled on SWT's refurbished 455's and whilst they've always looked after their trains well, the seats are very hard and narrow.

I'd be interested in what you and your fellow commuting veterans would feel if you were to travel to London on a Networker in its current state for example and someone were to lay on a fully refurbished, deep cleaned and reupholstered EPB for the journey back. I suspect you might surprise yourselves.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Improvements started on BR for the last round of rolling stock.
The IC225 installations (Bounds Green, Craigentinny etc) set a new standard for intercity stock.
The Networker programme did much the same for NSE.
Basically, new depots were required with modern facilities, and things improved from there.
I think class 317s (1981) were the first EMUs to have retention toilets, but new diesel trains were still being built with dump toilets for another decade.

 

[yorksrob]

The original 455s weren't very inspiring. The SWT refurbs are a massive improvement.

Even today, I travel on plenty of cramped, uncomfortable 142's and 150's with 3+2 airline seating compared to which an EPB would be luxury.

 

[alangla]

The stock itself is generally better too. Thinking locally, 101s were replaced with 156 units that accelarated better, rode much better, didn't jolt etc, on the electric side the 303s went in favour of 334s, again, quieter, better riding, better heating. In terms of interior condition, the real step change was when SQUIRE came in and the TOC could be fined for visible vandalism, damaged seats or litter - it pretty much disappeared overnight. So overall, the units, even the BR ones, are higher spec for a given job, the maintenance is better and even older stock is getting new features like toilets, WiFi, at-seat power and air conditioning (334s)

 

[class387]

The SWT 455 refurbishment is exceptional. I would much rather travel on it than a 450, however that standard is definitely the exception rather than the norm. Changing (or just cleaning) the seat covers and installing loud door alarms seem to pass as a 'refurbishment' now.

Train presentation and condition vary depending on the TOC, or even the stock - GN's 365s and 387s (and 317/321s when they had them) are fine, but their 313s are incredibly scruffy.

 

[yorksrob]

Improvements started on BR for the last round of rolling stock.
The IC225 installations (Bounds Green, Craigentinny etc) set a new standard for intercity stock.
The Networker programme did much the same for NSE.
Basically, new depots were required with modern facilities, and things improved from there.
I think class 317s (1981) were the first EMUs to have retention toilets, but new diesel trains were still being built with dump toilets for another decade.

I suspect that being able to bung the seat covers in the washing machine would have made a difference.

 

[Rail Blues]

As a kid in the mid to late 80s I used to travel on 116s on the cross city line. By which time they were coming up to 30 years old and looked dirty and dilapidated and like something from another era. This was a total contrast to travelling on the 150s on the Chase line that had a far better ambiance, slide doors and generally looked more modern. I still think of them as being 'modern' as I remember them being introduced.

I suppose if you took some thing like an unrefurbished Northern 156, and put a 10 year old on it, they'd probably notice the lack of PiS, led lighting, lack of air conditioning, dated looking seats and thee general state of disrepair that they'd think of them as 'knackered old trains'

 

[yorksrob]

There's a lot of talk on this thread of things looking "old" and "dated". When it comes down to brass tacks, does this really have as much effect on the quality of journey as things such as seat comfort, leg room, window view etc ?

 

[Chrisyd]

EPB stands for Electro-Pneumatic-Brake. Which I think means this was a third rail compartment based emu which were used heavily from the 1950s, for anyone else who did not know!

Please correct me if I have got this wrong though.

 

[yorksrob]

EPB stands for Electro-Pneumatic-Brake. Which I think means this was a third rail compartment based emu which were used heavily from the 1950s, for anyone else who did not know!

Please correct me if I have got this wrong though.

Generally only one carriage was built with compartments, so mainly, or in later years,, wholly saloon.

 

[Mikey C]

An interesting thread as usually people tend to look back nostalgically at the old days

I think that familiarity tends to breed contempt, and rolling stock always looks bad if people cover them in graffiti (which was definitely an issue in the EPB days) and they go for too long before being reupholstered.

I've also travelled on SWT's refurbished 455's and whilst they've always looked after their trains well, the seats are very hard and narrow.

I'd be interested in what you and your fellow commuting veterans would feel if you were to travel to London on a Networker in its current state for example and someone were to lay on a fully refurbished, deep cleaned and reupholstered EPB for the journey back. I suspect you might surprise yourselves.

To me the EPBs were uncomfortable, with a hard ride and bouncy seats, and while when empty they had good legroom, during the rush hour very bit of floor space would be taken up by standees, and the space in front of your legs would have people constantly getting on and off at stations anyway

 

[DarloRich]

Is it just me, or are trains far better looked after these days than they once were? They certainly seem to age a lot better.

There has been a change in materials used for flooring and walling, types of seat, depth of cushions, seat coverings, better lighting etc etc. That makes cleaning easier i should think.

 

[mushroomchow]

There's a lot of talk on this thread of things looking "old" and "dated". When it comes down to brass tacks, does this really have as much effect on the quality of journey as things such as seat comfort, leg room, window view etc ?

Agreed. If you did a blind preference test with 1000 modern day commuters and got them to sit in railway seats from each generation of stock dating back to Mk. 1s, I reckon most would vote for the most "dated" seat every time in terms of comfort.

The only modern seat that comes close is the Grammer, and even that is usually ruined by the pathetic legroom most stock gives it.

 

[yorksrob]

An interesting thread as usually people tend to look back nostalgically at the old days



To me the EPBs were uncomfortable, with a hard ride and bouncy seats, and while when empty they had good legroom, during the rush hour very bit of floor space would be taken up by standees, and the space in front of your legs would have people constantly getting on and off at stations anyway

Ditto any 3+2 unit today. I suppose on an airline seat we're spared people standing directly in front of us in some cases, but I don't personally think thats any better than being wedged in the middle of a row of three airline seats without any escape.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. If you did a blind preference test with 1000 modern day commuters and got them to sit in railway seats from each generation of stock dating back to Mk. 1s, I reckon most would vote for the most "dated" seat every time in terms of comfort.

The only modern seat that comes close is the Grammer, and even that is usually ruined by the pathetic legroom most stock gives it.

The 144's have decent seats, and are 2+2, but the lack of leg room lets them down.

 

[Journeyman]

To me the EPBs were uncomfortable, with a hard ride and bouncy seats, and while when empty they had good legroom, during the rush hour very bit of floor space would be taken up by standees, and the space in front of your legs would have people constantly getting on and off at stations anyway

Absolutely. I enjoyed an occasional off-peak trip on them in their final years, but a lot of people I knew had to endure them day-in, day-out when absolutely wedged full, and under those conditions they were horrible to travel in, and vastly inferior to any modern unit.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely. I enjoyed an occasional off-peak trip on them in their final years, but a lot of people I knew had to endure them day-in, day-out when absolutely wedged full, and under those conditions they were horrible to travel in, and vastly inferior to any modern unit.

At least one would have had the opportunity of spreading out once some people had got off. This isn't so easy with tightly packed, fixed airline seating.

I would have to strongly disagree that an EPB is inferior to any unit with 3+2 airline seating.

 

[jamesst]

I think a lot depends on the toc responsible for the units aswell. Virgin, London Northwestern, South Western and East Midlands stock to name a few always seems clean whenever I travel on them, Northern, Merseyrail not so much

 

[Journeyman]

At least one would have had the opportunity of spreading out once some people had got off. This isn't so easy with tightly packed, fixed airline seating.

I would have to strongly disagree that an EPB is inferior to any unit with 3+2 airline seating.

I agree that 3+2 seating is generally horrible but I find 2+2 airline seating to generally be fine, and if I'm travelling alone, I much prefer it to the alternative of having to stare at a stranger for ages.

 

[bastien]

Forget the seats for a moment (as if!) - who remembers when the windows were absolutely *dripping* with condensation? Give me a modern train over that any day.

 

[Journeyman]

Forget the seats for a moment (as if!) - who remembers when the windows were absolutely *dripping* with condensation? Give me a modern train over that any day.

Oh, absolutely. Running all the way down to the floor, mixing in with the fag ash and litter! Absolutely foul!